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Fallible Men Produce Infallible Bible?

Fallible Men Produce Infallible Bible?

Is It Possible or Impossible?

One of the most frequent arguments leveled against the infallibility of the Bible is based upon the fact that the Bible was written by human authors. Human beings are fallible. Since the Bible was written by these fallible human beings, it necessarily follows that the Bible is fallible. Or so the argument goes. As Roman Catholic theologian Bruce Vawter writes, "A human literature containing no error would indeed be a contradiction in terms, since nothing is more human than to err."

Although we often hear this accusation, it just is not correct. We grant that human beings do make mistakes, and that they make them often. But they do not necessarily make mistakes in all cases, and they do not necessarily have to make mistakes.

For example, several years ago one of the authors was teaching a class oon the reliability of the Bible. For it, he had typed up a one page outline of the course. The finished product was inerrant; it had no typographical errors, no mistakes in copying from the hand-written original. Although the author was human and was prone to make mistakes, he was in fact infallible in this instance.

The point is this: It is not impossible for a human being to perform a mistake free act. It is not impossible for fallible man to correctly record both sayings and events. Thus to rule out the possibility of an inerrant Bible by appealing to the fallibility of men does not hold up.

John Warwick Montgomery, lawyer/theologian, illustrates this truth:


The directions for operating my washing machine for example are literally infallible; if I do just what they say, the machine will respond. Euclid's Geometry is a book of perfect internal consistency; grant the axioms and the proofs follow inexorably. From such examples (and they readily be multiplied) we must conclude that human beings, though they often err, need not err in all particular instances.



To be sure, the production over centuries of sixty-six inerrant and mutually consistent books by different authors is a tall order-and we cheerfully appeal to God's Spirit to achieve it-but the point remains that there is nothing metaphysically inhuman or against human nature in such a possibility. If there were, have we considered the implications for Christology? The incarnate Christ, as a real man, would also have had to err; and we have already seen that error in His teachings would totally negate the revelational value of the incarnation, leaving man as much in the dark as to the meaning of life and salvation as if no incarnation had occurred at all (God's Inerrant Word, pg33
)

We also believe that there is sufficient evidence that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. The Scriptures themselves testify, "All Scripture is God-breathed." If they contain error, then one must call it God-inspired error. This is totally incompatible with the nature of God as revealed in the Bible. For example, Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie. John 17:17 says "Thy word is truth."

Examples could be multiplied. The testimony of Scripture is clear. God used fallible men to receive and record His infallible Word so that it would reach us, correct and without error. Sounds difficult? With our God it's not. As he said, "Behold I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?"

Josh McDowell
"Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity"
18,426 views 131 replies
Reply #76 Top
"Bakerstreet: How do you interpret Proverbs 9:10?


The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


I read it just as it says. That you have to respect and submit to the authority of God in order to even begin to understand Him and find his guidance. You expect me to fear your religion, or your man-made book, though.

I think that is a wise statement, but it was a wise statement made by a man. You haven't the ability to tell the difference, because you are brainwashed by religion. You equate the works of men with God, and claim that when I question one that I am questioning the Other. What does that make you?
Reply #77 Top
"Bakerstreet and SConn1 ---Reading the whole of Proverbs 9 would do you good. Verse 10: The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; and the knowledge of the holy is prudence.

Christ's Peace,"


like baker, i resent the implication that we are somehow ignorant of the bible.

having a "fear of the lord" has nothing to do with how i feel about men, most of which are wolves in sheep's clothing who misrepresent God in my opinion.

realizing that men were misrepresenting God, to me, was the beginning of wisdom. and i feel i have a much better understanding of the holiness on this earth since freeing myself of the church's dogmatic and controlling rhetoric.

Reply #78 Top
Reply By: BakerStreet Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006
P.S. ...........................the other believes the Catholic Church to be the only true church.
Yes, sir I do... and no one thus far has been unable to unsettle me.
Reply #79 Top
"Yes, sir I do... and no one thus far has been unable to unsettle me."


One would think history would.

Reply #80 Top
SConn1 says-----

lulabelle also challenges people to "disprove" her AS IF anything she has presented has been anything more than parroting of "faith based" doctrine, none of which can be proven in the 1st place. and most of which is just memorization of the b.s. that the church has been selectively teaching for centuries.

You make no headway by shooting the messenger. The proof lies in the fact that the CC alone corresponds exactly to the religion established by Christ. Now the Christian religion is that religion which 1.
1. Was founded by Christ personally
2. Has existed continuously since the time of CHrist and specifically during the Last Supper.
3. Is catholic or universal, in accordance with Christ's command to go to all the world and teach nations;
4. Demands that all members admit the same doctrine
5. exercises divine authority over her subjects, since Christ said that if a man would not hear the Church,he would be as a heathen.

Now the Catholic Church alone can claim----

1. to have been founded by Christ personally All other churches disappear as you go back in history. There are many claimants to being CHrist's Church---we find them built on a John and Charles Wesley, Martin Luther, King Henry VIII, Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith to name but a few. Only The CC alone, can possibly claim to have been built on Peter, the chief of the Apostles and one-time Bishop of Rome.
2. to have existed in all the centuries since Christ.
3. every member admits the same doctrines or faith
4. to speak with a voice of true authority in the name of God -----all this is a matter of the will of Christ who gave as much jurisdiction as He saw fit.

Reply #81 Top
Reply By: BakerStreet Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006
No, you didn't address the fact that if God can somehow control the creation of a book for thousands of years, why suddenly is He out of control? Shouldn't one of these be the "right" one?

Explain if you can why God would leave his Word moldering and flaking away as 2000 year old manuscripts after fostering it as you describe for thousands of years previous. If you are right, and he wanted a supernatural, inerrant document, why didn't He see to it that it came together as such? You admit that the modern translations aren't inerrant, did He just stop caring?

It's not IF God can somehow created the BIble, He did create the Bible through the workings of men. God is not out of control. Never was, never will be. God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. It is we who are "out of control" out of free will. God isn't around to do our bidding. We are to conform to His will as best we can. The more we try and ask, the more He will shed His grace. The way the world is lately, it seems as though He is withdrawing His grace.
Reply #82 Top
lol.

No other church can claim so many slaughtered and tortured in God's name, either. What other church can say they had a Borgia pope (rumored to have committed his first murder at age 12)? How many modern churches can say they've burned witches, or condemned Galileo?

I'm a history major that went to a religious school. If you want to talk about the all the things the Catholic church can claim I'll "indulge" you. I'd be interested to know which of all these popes were "speaking with the voice of Peter".

I'm glad you've admitted "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" and all that. Now not only do we have a supposedly infallible book between ourselves and God, but a 2000 year old bureaucracy. You guys have a heck of a lot of faith in mankind.
Reply #83 Top
Reply By: BakerStreet Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006
P.S. I find it insane that KFC and Lulabelle would try and put on a united front. One believes the Catholic church to be the great whore of Babylon, the other believes the Catholic Church to be the only true church. Don't you guys feel a tad like hypocrites for nodding to one another like this, all the while believing that the other's soul is in dire jeopardy?

We have just finished a wide discussion on the meaning of charity as love of God and neighbor. Turns out KFC and I agree and that seems to have raised your ire. Why? KFC and I agree that fallible men produced an infallible BIble. Why does that bother you to this degree? If KFC wants to take me to task on something I say, I'm sure she will....and vice versa.

It's not for me to decide the condition of her heart and soul to say that she is in dire jeaopardy. Conditions for salvation are that we know. love and serve God in this life by doing what He commands and avoiding what He forbids. If we fail in that, we must repent and change our ways. No man is an island. We need each other. I think in some way we are put in one another's path for a reason that only Divine Providence knows.

I'm no doormat, I'm going to defend what I believe; just as KFC, you and all the rest do. But I'm not going to jump on bait such as you put out and get into a debate over differences in doctrine to the amusement of others out in blogosphere-land. No sir. I'm a gentle lady.
Reply #84 Top
KFC----I hope you don't mind this defense against Bakerstreet's anti-Catholicism tirade.

Bakerstreet, The Church is one, catholic, holy and apostolic becasue it comes from Christ and He promised to protect her until the end of time; the people in it are not holy; although many saints have come through her doors. Christ told us that scandals would come. The CC is composed of human beings knit together by the authority of Christ, rejoicing in His perpetual protection and assistance. This is not arrogance. Christ endowed her with this gift and she humbly admits the fact that it is not of her own ability. The infallible Church teaches with certainty in matters of faith and morals only becasue God protects her from error in her official teaching, that is ex cathedra. The last ex cathedra declaration that I am aware of is when Pope John Paul II declarded that women wouldn not be allowed to be priests. The Case is closed. The members of the Church are sinners in that they don't live up to those infallible teachings that Christ gave us through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
The Catholic Church is the most hated institution in the world.


You bring up Galileo's case as a way to criticize the Church. This has been done ad nauseum for centuries. Some do it to perpetuate the so-called 'intolerant' Church's hostility to science. What a crock. The facts of history show the Church wasn't then nor ever has been hostile or opposed to science. The Holy Inquisition had no intention to attack or squelch science. Its action was consistent with its mission of guarding the integrity of the Catholic Church and the Holy Catholic faith.
In 1616, had been brought before the Holy Inquisition on the charge of adding new data to Copernicus' (heliocentric) theory which seemed to contradict the plain words of Scripture Joshua 10:13. The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius. In obedience to the ruling, Galileao promised to teach Copernicanism no more. and in the following year, the COngregation of the Index prohibited the presentation of the Copernicisiam theory except as a mere hypothesis. In 1632, Galileo published a work advocating Copernicanism. On that he went beyond the field of science as a mathematician, but rather as a philosopher. He imagined himself abolishing the Aristotelian-Thomist philosophy and entered the realm of theology by proposing in a letter to the Benedictine Fr. Castelli, to modify the traditional interpretation of various texts of Scripture that mentioned the movements of the Sun and earth. authority of the church. Galileo wanted to change Holy Scripture to fit his theory. Imagine that?
On that account, he was again summoned before the Inquisition and placed in confinement for life. Understand that the decree of the ruling was a disciplinary ruling and therefore could not possibly involve the infallibility of the Church. Galileo was not tortured, confined to a dungeon, but detained in an apartment for 3 weeks, then allowed to live comfortably at his estate near Florence where he continued some of his most famous work.
Reply #85 Top
You are sickening.

"Holy" Inquisition? The Catholic Church is the most hated institution in the world because it EARNED that hate through its bloody, despicable actions over a thousand years. How was God protecting the Catholic Church from error when it officially espoused blackmailing the relatives of people who had died or on their murderous rampages around the world?

You are sitting here excusing the imprisonment of a human being for their philosophical beliefs. Nay, not just excusing it, you call the people who imprisoned, tortured, and burned people at the stake for their beliefs "holy". You think it matters whether they were intolerant to science or philosophy? Had Galileo uttered every heresy in the book in the middle of mass, you believe he deserved life imprisonment?

Should I be imprisoned? I could stand here an utter beliefs about your church that would make Galileo go red it the face. Would you like me to? Should I expect a modern Bernardo Gui or a similar thug to show up at my door with the tongs? If they did, would you call them holy?

"The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius."


Odd, then that the prosecutor in the case would commit himself to statements like:

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." -Cardinal Bellarmine


Isn't that guy actually a saint now? You see that's the problem with you and your "inerrant" church. You don't repent of your evils, you validate them, then beatify them.

Penitençagite!




Reply #86 Top
"The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius."


I have to come back for a moment just to point out that your statement above was not true.

Copernicus's works were listed on the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum" at the time. It remained a forbidden book until 1757, over a hundred years after Galileo's trial. Many early works of science shared such a shame, yet one that "Mein Kampf" never was condemned to.
Reply #87 Top
i'm just going to add one more thing to this discussion.

you claim, lula, that the cc is the "one true church" founded by christ personally.

i disagree with this and the passage that allegedly gave the catholic church it's so called authority.

the much reffered to quote is ...""... thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18

i contend and interpret that line as peter not being annointed the 1st pope, but rather christ building his church on an individualrather than a formal structured religion like the one he rejected when he tore down the temple and defied the church elders.

of course, if i'm peter and have the choice after jesus is gone between being the guy in charge (and being able to say God appointed me) or saying "christ told me that we all are in charge of our own lives and thru God's love we can each become a shining symbol of that love and pandering to a rich, corrupt body of men is no longer necessary" i'm choosing being in charge.

but you are free to believe whatever you wish if it helps ya sleep at night...take care and God bless:)

if you can't accept that much of what formed the church, what became church doctrine and practice, and what happens today in the church is, was and always have been "politically motivated" then you are just naive and gullible. if you think God somehow manipulated all the results as to keep his message pure despite the failings and motivations of men, then what of free will?

bottom line, infallibility, when dealing with men who are fallible and sin, is impossible unless you eliminate free will. and free will is inherent to humans according to God.
Reply #88 Top
"The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius."


i can't believe you said this...you are truly a lost sheep. i could get real insulting now, but that wouldn't be right. i truly want you to REALLY find God. unfortunately, it seems the church has manipulated you into finding them and giving your life to a church, and not God.
Reply #89 Top
"Bakerstreet: How do you interpret Proverbs 9:10?
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
I read it just as it says. That you have to respect and submit to the authority of God in order to even begin to understand Him and find his guidance. You expect me to fear your religion, or your man-made book, though.

"The fear of the Lord" is an expression of reverence, piety and love of God and hatred of sin because sin offends God. Fear of the Lord is more than respect, it's love of God and those who love God submit the His authority not to better understand Him, as you say, but to love God because of a fear of offending Him by sin.

"is the beginning of wisdom" "Wisdom" means God's external revelation of Himself. Wisdom is absolute becasue it is love of the Divine God. In Proverbs 8:36 Wisdom promises life and the favor of God to those who find her, and death to those who despise her.

I've read proverbs many, many more times than once. MAYBE, just maybe as much as you, you think? I fear the Lord just fine, but I don't believe in the holiness of anything created by men. How do you feel about idolatry?


Bakerstreet says: You guys are the one posing God as a monstrous thing, not me.

Hello.....we're gals. How's that we are posing God as a monstrous thing?

Proverbs 9:10
New American Bible: "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and knowledge of the Holy One is wisdom."
Douay Rheims: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; and the knowledge of the holy is prudence."

From what I can tell you misunderstand what Proverbs means. You should read St. Thomas Aquinas masterpiece, Summa Theologica in its simplified version. Chapter II, Happiness of Heart, the Divine Life in man is a good chapter with which to begin.

Bakerstreet says: You guys are the one posing God as a monstrous thing, not me.

How's that?

Bakerstreet: How do you feel about idolatry?

Don't confuse my defense of Catholicism with idolatry.


Bakerstreet: You expect me to fear your religion, or your man-made book, though.

This is foolishness speaking on your part and it is wrong foolishness, to boot. The only expectation I have of you is that you will at all times conduct this discussion in a civil manner.


P.S. I will reply to your comment on Galileo, etc. later.



Reply #90 Top
You just said... nothing. I've reread what you posted here now twice, and I can't see where you've offered a single argument. You've just said basically "Nope, you're wrong".

I could easily equate your religion with idolatry, but I wasn't talking about catholicism, as KFC isn't catholic. I was talking about your idolatrous belief that a book can be perfect. As for making God a monster, your camp are the ones that propose the idea that God killed the firstborn of Egypt, commanded genocide because of the nation's religious beliefs, etc.

I *eagerly* await your response to my post about the barbarity of the inquisition.
Reply #91 Top
the Holy Inquisition


JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA!

Wow, I just laughed so hard I spit milk all over my table. You should really look into a career as a stand-up comedian, lulabelle, you'd go far, my dear.

That you would call such a barbaric, insipid, evil act "holy" is laughable. Your defense of it is pitiable. Your swallowing of faith is saddening. Your parroting of said faith more so.

I hope that the Lord will open your eyes and that you'll see that not a whole lot about any of this is "holy". I'll keep ya in my prayers . . .
Reply #92 Top
OF GALILEO BAKERSTREET SAYS: "You are sitting here excusing the imprisonment of a human being for their philosophical beliefs."

So far there have been 44 apocryphal embellishments of Galileo case. Yours, Bakerstreet, makes the 45 . Galileo remained loyal to the Church and was even carried to daily Mass when he became too feeble to walk.

During the investigation, Galileo lived in the Vatican, had a servant, food and wine, provided by a Tuscan ambassador.

The complaint against him was that he insisted on changing Scripture to conform to his scientific findings which were unproven. Descartes remarked that the action taken against him was merely disciplinarian of a committee and the Pope never confirmed the verdict. At 70, Galileo was put under his own "house arrest" where he lived very comfortably and where he continued to work on motion and gravity. The process against Galileo was reasonable and just.

Jesus forbid the changing of Scripture and the Holy Inquisition upheld that.

Too bad the textbooks today our children read make free with their riducluous embellishments and false accusations against the CC over her treatment of Galileo. How does it go---tell lies over and over and soon enough people will believe.

BAKERSTREET REMARKS ON: The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius."

Odd, then that the prosecutor in the case would commit himself to statements like:
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." -Cardinal Bellarmine

LIKE BILL O'REILLY SAYS, NAME AND TOWN, ----CITE THE SOURCE--OR IT'S JUST ONE OF THOSE RIDICULOUS EMBELLISHMENTS....

HERE IS ST. ROBERT BELLARMINE'S POSITION: "I SAY THAT IF THERE WERE A TRUE DEMONSTRATION THAT THE SUN IS AT THE CENTER OF THE WORLD AND THE EARTH IN THE THIRD HEAVEN, AND THAT THE SUN DOES NOT CIRCLE THE EARTH BUT THE EARTH CIRCLES THE SUN, THEN ONE WOULD HAVE TO PROCEED WITH GREAT CARE IN EXPLAINING THE SCRIPTURES THAT APPEAR CONTRARY, AND SAY RATHER THAT WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEM THAN THAT WHAT IS DEMONSTRATED IS FALSE. BUT I WILL NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SUCH A DEMONSTRATION, UNTIL IT IS SHOWN TO ME."

I said, "The advisors of the Inquisition did not base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicius."


BAKERSTREET SAID: I have to come back for a moment just to point out that your statement above was not true.
Copernicus's works were listed on the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum" at the time. It remained a forbidden book until 1757, over a hundred years after Galileo's trial.

AS I SAID, THE CHURCH DID NOT CONDEMN COPERNICIUS (the person)....who was a priest by the way. OF HIS WRITING, IN FACT, COPERNICICUS' "De Revolutionibus Orbium" HAD BEEN IN PRINT FOR NEARLY 70 YEARS BEFORE THE CHURCH PLACED ANY RESTRICTIONS ON ITS TEACHINGS. THIS WAS TRIGGERED BY GALILEO'S "Letter to Castelli", AN APOLOGY FOR COPERNICANISM WHICH ADVOCATED A FIGURATIVE READING OF SCRIPTURE IN ORDER TO RESOLVE THE APPARENT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE.

While the Catholic Church ALLOWED the publication of Copernicus' work, Calvin and Luther condemned it on spiritual grounds. Some of the technical difficulties were dealt with by Kepler; they made the geocentric theory more plausible, but Kepler was persecuted by the Protestants in Tubingen and had to flee to the Jesuits for protection in 1596.


Reply #93 Top

BAKERSTREET SAID: I was talking about your idolatrous belief that a book can be perfect.

THE BOOK IS PERFECT (INERRANT) BECAUSE GOD IS THE PRINCIPLE AUTHOR OF SCRIPTURE. GOD IS BY NATURE TRUTH ITSELF AND IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH ERROR.

Reply #94 Top
I could easily equate your religion with idolatry, but I wasn't talking about catholicism, as KFC isn't catholic. I was talking about your idolatrous belief that a book can be perfect


I knew that. But Lulabelle is new to JU Town and doesn't know you Baker, like I know you.....  

you really need to take a chill pill Baker. You seem very agitated. I thought somewhere you aluded to the fact that you favor the CC? Maybe it was tongue in cheek? Dang, I thought maybe you were a converted Catholic so now I'm back to thinking you're just a spiritulist.

Lulabelle is a sold out Catholic. I myself think she's got her ladder going up the wrong bell tower, but I do admire her faithfulness to the church she believes in. We share the Good News and that's a very important tenant to the Faith.

I say this as I dust off my history books.

Peace

Reply #95 Top

THE BOOK IS PERFECT (INERRANT) BECAUSE GOD IS THE PRINCIPLE AUTHOR OF SCRIPTURE. GOD IS BY NATURE TRUTH ITSELF AND IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH ERROR


Baker thinks it's a good book just errant since it's written by men.

Some say it's inspired but not inerrant. That just boggles my mind. If that's the case, we have God inspired error? I have to ask as I usually do, are they reading the same book I am? I am absolutely amazed at what I'm reading. The more I dig and lately the more I study Jewish history I'm absolutely convinced it's a book that is what it says it is....the absolute word of God to all mankind.







Reply #96 Top
lulabelle is sitting here, stolidly excusing the imprisoning someone for their beliefs. She calls barbaric, genocidal religious inquisition "holy". People who call evil good have no fear of God, and those who'd excuse such barbarity have no love for Jesus's teachings.

Even if you believe her whitewashed version of the Galileo situation, she's STILL excusing the imprisonment of a man for his religious beliefs. The "holy" inquisition was an affront to Christianity, and if anyone deserves to burn in hell it is people who did such horrific things. I could not sleep well knowing I had called them "holy".

There are catholics I have admired, and I don't believe the religion is completely soiled. If there is anything soiling it it would have to be people like you lulabelle. I won't even compliment you further with discussion, because from your arguments I can see that you'd be right there applauding the inquisition if they were abusing any of us.

Penitençagite! People like those you praise get what is coming to them eventually. I wouldn't stand alongside them if I were you.

"Some say it's inspired but not inerrant. That just boggles my mind. If that's the case, we have God inspired error?"


Again, I'll ask: you read koine greek? You, yourself say that the original is what is inerrant, and the translations aren't.

Does it make any more sense that God would give his message to a few people, then not bother to see that it got to anyone else? If you had a message that would be the very salvation of people's souls, would you sit and watch while they didn't get it? What kind of father would you be?

Why would God go to the trouble and then not bother to bind it all into translated canon for hundreds of years? Didn't he care about the Eskimos and the Aborigines and the Japanese? Didn't they deserve the "inerrant" word for the centuries that people argued about what the bible should be?

Those folks in the Middle East must have been God's picks, because in your description of events he didn't seem to care whether anyone else got His message or not. You can't really believe that, can you? Why pretend this is God's work when it is so obviously the product of mankind?





P.S. KFC: We differ a lot, but what little respect I had for you has gone out the window watching you coddle this inquisition apologist. She's excusing, nay praising the people who tortured and burned people just like you for believing just what you believe. I'm betting if the inquisition started again, (as I think you believe it might), she'd be right there applauding while you are on the rack.

Inerrancy is that important to you that you'd sit quietly and overlook someone using your blog to excuse the inquisition? It just goes to show that fundamentalist Christianity is really all about "kicking". I think you'd argue alongside Satan if you thought it would give your argument a boost.
Reply #97 Top
Baker,

I could never be a Catholic again for many reasons and one would be the history of the CC. I abhor the thought of the inquisition and would most likely had been burned at the stake myself if I lived in those times. I admire Luther and what he did. In my book he's a hero. But he came from a long line of heroes, those willing to die to put God's word in our hands.

In Orlando there's a Scriptorium that has some of the oldest collection of biblical manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts in the world. These bibles are in the Old English, Greek, and Latin. Room by room they walk you thru the history of the bible, and it's quite sobering and not unlike what we see from a secular level on what's going on in our country in the realm of politics. We thumb our noses now at those who gave their lives for our freedoms whether it be politically or spiritually. Many were burned at the stake when found out by the Powerful CC. Bibles were burned. At one point the bible was written in 500 languages (before the true inception of the CC) and after reduced to only one.....the Latin Vulgate. It's not called the Dark Ages for no reason. If they possibly could I think the light of God would have been snuffed out. But God is in control. Like I've said a million times. God's word is always a pall bearer to its enemies funerals. While they all pass away the word of God will not and never will.

So no, I've already said I'm no fan of the CC, Lulabelle knows this, but what we do agree on is the essentials. To be called a Catholic or an Evangelical is not an Essential. To believe that Jesus was born for our salvation with no hope in another and left behind his word for us to abide in is much more important than where we worship on Sunday.

Reply #98 Top
I could easily equate your religion with idolatry


it's totally easy to equate catholicism to idolitry. catholics pray to saints, that's an idol and not God. catholics pray and worship mary, again, she is not God, she is an idol. they put mary up over all other women of the world, but God says all of his children are equal in his eyes...that's idolitry.

Reply #99 Top
"So no, I've already said I'm no fan of the CC, Lulabelle knows this, but what we do agree on is the essentials. To be called a Catholic or an Evangelical is not an Essential. To believe that Jesus was born for our salvation with no hope in another and left behind his word for us to abide in is much more important than where we worship on Sunday. "


If this were simple guilt by association you'd have a point. In fact, if you bother to read what she says, she matter-of-factly excuses the inquisition and calls it "holy". Has she one, single time so far condemned what the inquisition did? Do you believe people should face life imprisonment, torture, death by burning, etc., because people don't believe the "truth"?

Lulabelle is beyond just disagreeing with you on a few doctrinal points. She says:

"Jesus forbid the changing of Scripture and the Holy Inquisition upheld that."


They "upheld" a lot. They wiped out entire communities, and crushed civilizations. You cozy up to that evil if you like, but winning an argument isn't worth that to me. She could agree with everything I say and I'd still find her perspective repulsive.

You reduce that to "she's got her ladder going up the wrong bell tower" if you want. What we tolerate speaks volumes about us.
Reply #100 Top
KFC---"sold out Catholic". you've got me pegged! Yes, we DO share the GOOD NEWS OF SALVATION.

I wonder if Bakerstreet who said on Oct. 24 "Charity DOES NOT MEAN LOVE" still thinks that.

Just a slight correction: I don't believe IN the Catholic Church; I believe IN God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost with the help of the CChurch's
teachings which come from written and oral Revelation.

I'm not really computer savvy and don't have those cute faces to plug in, but would here if I could.

Reply by BAKERSTREET; ET AL---
lulabelle is sitting here, stolidly excusing the imprisoning someone for their beliefs.

GALILEO WASN'T IMPRISONED. HE WAS IN MILD DETENTION IN A VILLA; HIS OWN VILLA.

BY SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON GALILEO, I HAVEN'T EXCUSED OR DEFENDED THE DISGRACEFUL CRUELTY OF THE INQUISTION. NOT AT ALL. NOR WILL I. I ABHOR THOSE TIMES IN CHURCH HISTORY, BOTH CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT. I WISH IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, BUT HISTORY CAN'T BE WISHED AWAY. HOWEVER, IT CAN BE DISCUSSED IN HONEST AND FORTHRIGHT TERMS.

THE POINT THAT I WILL ATTEMPT TO MAKE IS THAT THE MERE EXISTENCE OF THE INQUISITION DOES NOT DISPROVE THE CHURCH'S CREDENTIALS AS BEING THE ONE. TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

FOLLOWERS OF ALL RELIGIONS HAVE SINNED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. NONE GET A FREE PASS.

IT SEEMS BAKERSTREET WANTS A FREE RIDE ON VIOLENCE.

HAS HE EVER SEEN PICTURES OF BURNING CARS IN NORTHERN IRELAND?

WHY DID THE CONGREGATIONAL CHURCH PUT WOMEN TO DEATH IN THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS IN 1692?

HISTORY TELLS US ALTHOUGH NOT IN MODERN TEXTBOOKS, THAT IN COLONIAL DAYS IN NEW ENGLAND, PEOPLE WERE FORCED TO GO TO CHURCH FOR HOURS ON END. AND DURING THE SERVICE, A BERNARD GUI TYPE WOULD MAKE USE OF A TITHING POLE THAT HAD A BOXING GLOVE ATTAHED. HE WOULD GO AROUND AND HIT PEOPLE WITH IT IF THEY SEEMED NOT TO BE PAYING ATTENTION. WHY DID THEY USE THAT? DIDN'T THIS PROHIBIT FREEDOM IN CHURCH? WHAT ABOUT THE MAJOR ROBERT PIKE INCIDENT WITH THE 2 QUAKER WOMEN?

AND THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING, I CAN GO ON......TO THE ENGLISH PROTESTANT ENLIGHTENMENT ...FLOGGINGS, SPREAD EAGLE FOR STEALING A TEAPOT OR COAT... YOU ARE IN A GLASS HOUSE.....

you bring up existence of the inqisition to prove something bad about the CC. I've already said the CC contains sinners, everyone of us are right up to the top to persons who are in authority. Are Protestants sinners too?


YOU THINK THE INQUISTION REVEALS THE CC NOT TO BE THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST. CAlling the CC into question over wrong-doing of individual Catholics does not prove the Church false....and the Church certainly has not been false to its commission. BUT NO DEGREE OF UNSAINTLINESS ON THE PART OF CATHOLICS ever since apostolic times PROVES THE CHURCH TO BE OTHER THAN WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE....


It's time to make some lunch......


to be continued......

Peace and blessings to all....





YOU JUST BRING




THERE ARE 5 FORMS OF THE INQUISITION SPREAD OVER 6 CENTURIES AND HALF A CONTINENT.