The Pope and his remarks against the Prophet

Why an apology will not do

Even in the best of circumstances, Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict, is known as a tough and erudite theologian. Not withstanding his contropversial membership of the Hitler Youth during his early years, Ratzinger grew in stature during the heady days of the Vatical Council II which oversaw a few doctrinal and liturgical reforms. Pope Benedict has earned a reputation for himself as a conservative upholder of the rights and privileges of the Papcy in the manner of a medieval pope and therefore it is not surprsing that he made the outrageous remarks for which he has apologised not once but thrice in the last few days. Like the case of the Danish cartoons publised incidentally last September, the Pope's remarks have made a tense situation even worse. And he apologises after a fashion: I am sorry that you misunderstood my words etc etc.

The Byzantine monarch who was quoted by the Pope was engaged in a whole series of wars with the Turks in Anatolia in the thirteenth century a full century and a half before Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1453. And by appovingly quoting that medieval monarch who spewed out venom against Propher Mohammad, peace be on his name, Pope Benedict has shown not just lack of wisdom but worse an absolute ignorance of history. Even Edward Gibbon who published his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire in the eighteenth had a far deeper and in retrospect a richer academic understanding of Islam than this pope.

The unsophisticated and ignorant utterances of Pope Benedict has now ignited a flame that is spreading across the Islamic world. As it is the relationship between the Christian and Islamic worlds is full of problems and now the pope has stireed up the waters true and fast.
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Reply #1 Top
Yes he has made an utterance - a quote to be more exact - do the words of one man who did not look more carefully at the words and the possible ridiculous reactions to it - have to spread so much violence and hatred?

He apologised - albeit "after a fashion" - why can't the mulims forgive and forget and put it down to a foolish old man?

I am not Catholic and I do not like this new pope either. I do not however go about burning churches, burning flags, killing innocent people and threatening death to all.

Forgiveness - more should be taught about forgiveness.
Reply #2 Top
Why an apology will not do


Your reasoning for not accepting an apology is what? Please advise.


stireed up the waters true and fast.


Can you expalin this a bit more please.

Reply #3 Top
Frankly, the whole issue demonstrates a lack of intelligence on the part of the muslims who are reacting in such a manner, as do your statements here.
And by appovingly quoting that medieval monarch who spewed out venom against Propher Mohammad,


Approvingly? Have you even bothered to read the transcription of the entire talk? Your statements indicate that you have not. Instead of reacting to a portion of a talk, out of context, why not try learning the facts by reading the entire thing.

Those muslims who have reacted with violence owe the world an apology for being reactionary animals instead of thinking human beings.
Reply #4 Top
To: BV

I read the whole of the speech, and commented on it here WWW Link.

So far from Benedict's comments being 'thoughtless' they were in fact part of an evolving and on-going work on Benedict's part to redefine and revitalise a sense of Europe and its intellectual heritage that gives space for reason and faith to work together. His comment on the words of Manuel II Palaelogus defined a bounded and an unbounded concept of God - the former being European and deriving from the interaction of Greek philosophy and Catholic theology, in which God is bound by Its own nature; the latter being clearly associated with Islam, in which God is bound by nothing but Its own will.

Benedict is a very 'European' Pope and has a strong sense of Islamic culture as 'the Other'. He's had no hesitation in arguing that Turkey should not be offered membership in the EU since it has never been part of the mainstream of European development. In other speeches, notably one given at Auschwitz, he's strongly rebuked tendencies toward violence originating in religious extremism, and in the speech at Regensburg he made clear that he associates that violence and its irrationality with the 'unbounded concept' of God.

No, there was nothing at all thoughtless in Benedict's speech. Equally, there's little of thoughtlessness in the (predictable) response of Muslims to the 'offence' of Benedict's words - since it's largely orchestrated and facillitated by the potentates, dictators, tyrants and demagogues who misgovern the Muslim communities to distract attention from their corruption, incompetence, nepotism and general barbarity.
Reply #5 Top
The unsophisticated and ignorant utterances of Pope Benedict has now ignited a flame that is spreading across the Islamic world.


WRONG!

The pope made some remarks and some infantile murderers used them as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway. One in no way caused the other and the pope is in no way responsible for the actions of animals.

Yeah, the Pope was probably wrong for saying what he did, but what he said was just words. He didn't cause the people to go on a rampage, they chose to babies and hurt others. One action didn't cause the other.
Reply #6 Top
Emp & Whip -

What you said. A little ol' insightful for ya both.

Bahu -

How is it possible that you aren't running things, smart as you are 'n all?
Reply #7 Top
Ted -

I agree. This is the fatal flaw in the apologist's logic - they overlook, or intentionally ignore, free will, the ability of any individual to choose either good or evil. A nun is murdered in cold blood, shot it the back 4 times, but Bahu protests a speech.

When repeated over and over and accepted by the press as "wisdom" even people who should know better begin to think that way, such as the Pentagon in recent months. Further, as our collective brain begins to tire of the struggle, it is subconsciously tempting to accept undeserved guilt and embrace culpability as a way of ending the struggle. It is unfortunate, but true of the American psyche since the 60's, reinforced over & over by our self-flagellating press.
Reply #8 Top

in bahu mind, all things western, america, white, christian and Jew= wrong

Terrorist, muslim fanatics,baby killers= good people that are just living their daily lives.

Reply #9 Top
the pope is in no way responsible for the actions of animals.


oy don't insult animals please!   
Reply #10 Top

Bahu, this is beneath you. Unless you are converting to Islam.  Please read the whole text, and remember the context it was delivered.  Pope Benedict XVI was not making a speech! (error #1 of countless on your part).

He was delivering a lecture on tolerance!

IN that, his appology is more than adequate, and more than enough.  He spoke from the heart.  The stupid (yes stupid) muslims are just affirming a 14th (or whatever) century emperor's opinion.  No better way to prove a point than act it out in ignorance.

Reply #11 Top
I'm afraid the evidence suggests pretty much nothing is beneath Bahu. He should be protesting the overreaction but, no. All the apologists do is seize on anything they can to justify the unjustifiable. Until Islam is the religion of peace in deed rather than word, such criticism of any Pope's words is morally bankrupt. Not to mention that the reaction of Muslims to this is so grade school, only with weapons. If there is a more insecure, childish religion than Islam, please let me know.
Reply #12 Top
Am I the only one that gets the feeling he has put this up to annoy everyone and has no intention of responding?
Reply #13 Top

In other news, it rained in Whogivesacrudstan causing Muslim leaders to call for Jihad.  Rioters in the streets across the Islamic world were out in force chanting "Death to America."

For a religion whose members are disproportionately more likely to commit gruesome murders in its name, they are amazingly thin skinned.

Islam - the crybaby religion.

Reply #14 Top
Jennifer:
oy don't insult animals please!


Good point Jennifer, my apologies to our furry (and non furry) friends everywhere... even the ones on the BBQ as we speak. ;~D
Reply #15 Top
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Reply #19 Top
Lets face it, Islamists just like to riot and murder, and they will use any slight, real or imagined, as an attempt to justify the letting of blood. They would look a lot less ridiculous if they just admitted this already, declared war on everybody, and quit whining about the petty things and non-issues they use as 'reasons.'


First off.... Not *ALL* Islamists are like that. Come back and show me every muslim/islamists statement that they feel that way. Otherwise, you're just generalizing.

Secondly, he messed up, he apologized. Everyone needs to sweep it under the rug now. Move on. (Not all folks seem to want to do that, unfortunately.)

~S/P
Reply #20 Top
No shit, Lucas? Gee, thanks for straightening me out, but only a simpleton like yourself would require such disclaimers, such statements of the obvious.


You should be nicer - at least this time he actually has an opinion. It's a first as far as I can tell. The only thing to see whether he has actually changed is whether he defends it or just says 'Okay' like he used to do when challenged.

The pope's entitled to say whatever the hell he wants to say. No mistake was made on his part, his quote was accurate and well placed within the lecture itself, a lecture I'm sure you haven't read even though Simon generously linked it here.


I think I've made my dislike of the current pope plain a number of times, but I do think he had the right to say what he did. It wasn't particularly politic, but it was a clever move. Catholicism is losing ground to Islam in Africa and it's about time a Pope actually stood for something that's at all defensible (promoting condom-free sex and therefore AIDS hasn't exactly been a successful long-term policy move). I just wish he'd chosen an issue that I agreed with.

From where I stand Catholicism has, both historically and currently, had as little to do with reason as Islam has. It's just the nature of religions to be a little bit irrational.

The Muslim response, low-key and limited in violence to crazy areas only as it was, does seem to have been a little excessive in the violence and over-the-top in the rhetoric. If anyone should be able to say what they think it's the pope, because nothing a pope is ever going to say is going to be a surprise. Honestly I don't understand why media services insisted on kicking up such a big fuss - a Western pope declaring his support for his monotheistic faith and then backing it up with reference to the religions fairly impressive intellectual history? Egads!
Reply #21 Top
I guess that nun is a little easier to sweep under the rug now that she isn't kicking or begging for her life anymore, hey SilentSicky?

Maybe you'd be a lot easier to sweep under the rug after a few of the murderous bacteria plied their brand of "conversion" on you.
Reply #22 Top
Yea the religion of peace. The Pope quotes from a medival script how Islam is a religion of the sword, then from Islam comes this resounding chorus "We're going to kill you for that!". I guess they made that medival writers point. Greg.
Reply #23 Top
*shrugs*

Hey, just calling you on it. Glad to know you're not generalizing.

"He expressed no real opinion, cacto, merely waggled his finger at both sides of the issue. Bad pope! (he messed up.) Bad muslims! (sweep it under the rug and move on!) And I find it very difficult to summon up any niceness towards someone whose main point (only point, really) was that I failed to pepper my comment with enough disclaimers for the dense."

And that's not an opinion on the situation, how? Just because I don't say I support one side or the other does not mean that i have no opinion, that it was no opinion. As far as i am concerned, both sides messed up. The pope for not having enough foresight, and wisdom, in how the muslims would react. There have been plenty of examples of muslims blowing a thing out of proportion. The muslims, for well, taking this and running with it. For letting those who preach death and such, to stick around. As far as i am concerned, they need to do that. I still find Islam to be a religion of peace, like all religions. It's when you add humans into the algorithm, it gets fucked up.

I guess that nun is a little easier to sweep under the rug now that she isn't kicking or begging for her life anymore, hey SilentSicky?Maybe you'd be a lot easier to sweep under the rug after a few of the murderous bacteria plied their brand of "conversion" on you.


Gee, nice use of words. *rolls eyes* I'm not saying they are justified. Trust me, I'm not. I'm pointing the blame on those whom it belongs. At least, in my opinion.

That was Marcie who used to do that, not Lucas. Lucas goes into fits of rage, tells everyone to go fark themselves,(rather than defend his statements) and ends up grounded.


Ya, and you go into fits of acidic spewing. *shrugs* Everyone has their things. I'm not excusing what i used to do, if that's what you think.

You should be nicer - at least this time he actually has an opinion. It's a first as far as I can tell. The only thing to see whether he has actually changed is whether he defends it or just says 'Okay' like he used to do when challenged.


I've had opinions. I just didn't care to offer them, why...I don't know. *shrugs* I've offered mine on this one.



~S/P
Reply #24 Top
Gee, nice use of words. *rolls eyes* I'm not saying they are justified. Trust me, I'm not. I'm pointing the blame on those whom it belongs. At least, in my opinion.


Any blame you put on the pope in this is dead wrong. He did nothing wrong here at all.
Reply #25 Top
*shrugs*


*shrugs*


*shrugs*


You shrug too much more and you'll pop your head off, broham . . .

Not that many of us will mind.