Bible Mythbusters

What Hell is and is not.

Hell.
There are four synonymous words for Hell, used in the King James Version of the Bible- Gehenna, Hades,Sheol, and Tartarus.
‘Hell” is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the N.T. The English word itself is from the Anglo-Saxon hel, Genitive case helle= a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan=to hide.
Gehenna, pronounced: geena, is the transliteration of the Hebrew Gai’Hinnom, i.e. The valley of hinnom or the valley of the sons of hinnom, where there were the fires through which the children of these pagans were passed through, in worship of the false god, Moloch. In the O.T. Tophet was the Hebrew word used because it was a place in this valley.
In our Lord’s day, the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, Gehenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes “Gehenna of fire”. See Kings:23.10 - Isaiah : 30:33 - Jeremiah 7:31,32 & 19:11-14.
Gehenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered “hell”.
Hades (Greek) used by the Greeks for the “unseen world”. The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us: nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen or the traditions of the Jews or Romanists or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them.
The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the “words pertaining to the earth” and in doing so has “purified” it, as “silver tried in a furnace” (Psalms. 12:6). From this we learn that His own words are “pure” but words belonging to this earth have to be “purified”. The Old Testament is the fountain-head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew word Sheol is a word Divine in origin and usage. The Greek “Hades” is human in origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings and usages. Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Acts.2:27,31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psalm 16:10, He has settled, once and for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sheol in Psalms.16:10, is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the N.T., whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.The word occurs eleven times (Matt.11:23 - 16:18 - Luke. 10:15 & 16:23 - Acts 2.27,31 - 1Cor. 15:55 - Rev.1:18, 6:8, 20:13&14) and is rendered “hell” in every passage except one, where it is rendered “grave” - 1 Cor. 15:55. In the revised version, the word is always transliterated “Hades” except in 1Cor.15:55, where “death” is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, and in the American R.V. also.
As “Hades” is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sheol, further light may be gained by noting that while “Hades” is rendered “Hell” in the N.T. except once, where the rendering “the grave” could not be avoided. Sheol, its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered “the grave” 31 times “ Hell” 31 times and the “Pit” 3 times. “The grave” , therefore is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death and not the act of dying, as an examination of both words in all occurrences will show.
The rendering of “Pit” so evidently means “the grave” that it may at once be substituted for it ( Num. 16;30&33 and Job.17:16).
The rendering “the grave” ( not “ a grave” which is Hebrew keber or bor) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sheol and Hades. For as to direction it is always down: as to place it in the earth: as to relation, it is always in contrast with the state of the living-(Deut.32:22-25 and Sam. 6-8) ; as to association, it is connected with mourning (Gen.37:34&35), sorrow (Gen.42:48 - Sam.22:6 -Ps. 18;5 and 116:3) fright and terror ( Num. 16:27 & 34 ) mourning ( Isa.38: 3,10,17,18) silence ( Ps.6:5 - 31:17 - Ecc. 9:10) no knowledge (Ecc.9:5,6,10) punishment (Num.16:29,34 - Kings. 2:6,9 - Job 24:19 - Ps. 9:17) corruption (Ps. 16:10 - Acts 2: 27,31) as to duration, resurrection is the only exit from it ( Ps. 16.11 - Acts. 2: 27,31 & 13;33-37 -1Cor. 15:55 - Rev. 1: 18 & 20: 5,13&14).
Tartaroo or Tartarus occurs only in 2 Pet. 2:4= to thrust down to tartarus. Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Septuagint. The writer Homer, describes it as a subterranean prison , in which the Titans or Giants are kept as a result of rebellion against Zeus.
So , now you can easily see how we have arrived at “Hell” being a place underground, a prison of sorts , with fires continually burning, unseen by the living and those held there in an eternal torture.
We never could have arrived at this silly conclusion if the original words and meanings thereof were left intact in the Word of God, for one cannot possibly take the original words and meanings and combine them to invent such a place unless those words and meanings were substituted for the word “Hell” and its definition arrived at by scribes who would wish us to believe other than the truth. In no way can one arrive at the definition of a “Hell” by using the individual words and proper usage in the context and placement as they were originally given in the Hebrew Massorah, the Greek Septuagint or even the Latin Vulgate for that matter. For whatever reasons, we are taught that the consequences of not minding our P’s and Q’s is an eternal torture that awaits us all. One cannot prove this by using the original words in their original placement in the context which they were used.
So, what are we to think about the fate of those who have not and do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ? Would a God of love cavalierly cast one of his own into a fiery pit for an eternity? Is that the fate of the mentally ill....the untaught.....the ignorant? The only glimpse of what could possibly pass for what a hell might be, is in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus, where the Rich man did not overcome and found himself in a place that he could not escape from, and could see Lazarus from afar, across a gulf. There we find much symbolism used as the things the rich man was experiencing were not literal but figurative, and were not being dispensed by a devil . These were things he was feeling brought on by his own disappointment and heartache, finding himself in a place with definate boundaries, yet very near to paradise - in a holding pen of sorts and knowing he would have to wait until Christ returns to earth with all those who did not overcome in this flesh life for the thousand year reign, where they will be taught and made ready for when Satan is loosed from the pit to once again tempt and persuade as many as he can to join in his efforts. But as prophecy tells us , he will fail in this and he and those who join him will find themselves wading into the lake of fire and it is there that they will meet their permanent destruction, which is the second and final death.....the death of the soul itself and it is that that is eternal. One of Satan’s’ names is the Son of Perdition. Perdition means “to perish from within and from without” - a permanent, final death. If the lake of fire is thought to be hell, then it does not yet exist, for it is created only after judgment day, and judgment day occurs only after the thousand year reign of Christ, and that has not yet even begun , for Christ does not return until Satan is cast to earth by the archangel Michael, and masquerades as Christ and therein lies the danger, for we are told that the great majority of people will accept him as Christ, not knowing any better of course , for they have neither studied , nor have been taught......just like they have not been taught about “Hell” and other pertinent topics. Our Father has a plan and it is perfect and it will be done just as He stated it would , in His word.
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Reply #1 Top
for Christ does not return until Satan is cast to earth by the archangel Michael, and masquerades as Christ and therein lies the danger, for we are told that the great majority of people will accept him as Christ, not knowing any better of course , for they have neither studied , nor have been taught......just like they have not been taught about “Hell” and other pertinent topics



This also strikes me as being a bit unfair of God.

If Satan is going to masquerade as Christ performing all the good that Christ performs, showing all the mercy that Christ shows etc etc, The people are fooled because they know no better - God will punish them? That is just wrong!

Seems to me God can be a bit twisted in his sense of humor?

therein lies the danger


He has a taste for the wicked in him too if this is part of his plan? He is not so perfect then, because he is setting a foul trap for innocent people who know no better, what a ghastly thing to do.


Reply #2 Top
Just curious here.....are you mixed up with the 7th Day Adventist Religion?

I know you said you don't go to church but you seem to follow their train of thought more than once.

There we find much symbolism used as the things the rich man was experiencing were not literal but figurative, and were not being dispensed by a devil


then you're saying when Christ gave this parable, he was deceiving us? Because he said the rich man was tormented. Sounds literal to me. So much so the rich man asked to have Lazarus get him some water to refresh him and he wanted his brothers warned in order that they not come to where he was at.

Would a God of love cavalierly cast one of his own into a fiery pit for an eternity?


but that's just it, they are not HIS. Jesus himself said, "you belong to your father, the devil." God is both Creator God and Father God. After we are created we belong to either the God of Eternity or the God of this world. If we sow the devil's work we cannot expect to reap eternity with God of Eternity.

We will reap what we sow.

Reply #4 Top
JENNIFER. Oh beloved no, God is hardly unfair as He has given you all there is to know about this subject through His word. It is His letter, to His children. He expects you to read it and understand it, and without it, you are doomed to worship antichrist. Not one is sentenced to death , but Satan himself, and that does not occur until after the thousand year reign of Christ, in which ALL will be taught before Satan is loosed from the pit, to form whatever allegiances he can in a short period of time. It is only those who follow Satan till the bitter end that will accompany him into the lake of fire. You will not be among those who die the second and final death.

Yes Satan masquerades as Christ, but everything he does is not for the good, though through miracles at times it may seem otherwise. One must remember that antichrist comes in peacefully and prosperously as stated in Daniel. The great majority of people will think he is indeed Christ, for he will be the first supernatural being (supernatural meaning to be in its most natural state - Satan has never and will never occupy a flesh body) to be seen here on earth since Adam and Eve dealt with him in the garden.

God is neither ghastly nor does He concieve wickedness to spring on those caught unawares. As I stated earlier, He provides all the information one needs to avoid this tribulation. You are expected to learn what it is He would have you know.
One other defense mechanism that God so gracefully employs is that though the multitudes worship Satan, God has placed the spirit of slumber upon the masses, as to keep their innocence through ignorance. Only the elect know that antichrist is Satan and will stand against him and the locust army.
Have the gospel armor on and in place to withstand the fiery darts of Satan.

Godspeed, Jennifer.
Reply #5 Top
KFC. Ah, thats better now that I'm all nice and blue again - I hadn't officially logged in for Jennifer's reply.

No, as I have stated, I am not a member of any church, cult, club, organization, society, round table, grove worship, group, circle, etc. You know more than I do about the 7th day people. I have absolutely no knowledge of them or what they believe and practice.

Christ does not decieve anyone at anytime for any purpose. Christ lays it on the line. Yes, the rich man was in torment, because he was not in the presence of Christ and if you were in the position of the rich man you would also wish to convey a warning to those closest to you....who wouldn't?, but this is not the hell that we have been taught. This place is the same place where the spirits in prison are kept, reserved in chains until judgment.
The spirits in prison have been sentenced to remain there, while the rich man will go through the millenium, to earn redemption.

"Are not his.".........the Kenites, also known as the Pharisees and scribes, those that the church of Philadelphia and Smyrna know of. Yes, in John chapter 8 , Christ tells them that they are of their father the devil, and the works of their father they will do, that they were responsible for the deaths of all the righteous, that their father ( note that the word father in chapter eight begins with the lower case f , when referring to their father, instead of the use of a capital when referring to Our Father , who art in Heaven), that their father was a murderer from the beginning , who was Cain, hence the term Kenite, for Kenite means sons of , or decendants of Cain, and Cain's father is Satan, not Adam, which is also why Christ calls them a brood of serpents, for they are seed of the serpent. And true to themselves, they managed to silence Christ through death, little did they know, that they had destroyed death by killing Christ. Judas was a Kenite, the only one in the bunch. Christ had to choose a Kenite, for by doing so, He would be assured that Judas would double cross him and turn Him over to his pals for a lousy handful of silver. No doubt that Satan's seed, the third of the stars of Heaven that Satan won over in the world that then was, will continue their loyalty to him until death, but I believe that at least some, will see the error of their ways during the millenium and come back to God and therefore will be spared the final death in the lake of fire.

Thank you for the questions. OB77
Reply #6 Top
"you belong to your father, the devil."



that their father ( note that the word father in chapter eight begins with the lower case f , when referring to their father, instead of the use of a capital when referring to Our Father , who art in Heaven), that their father was a murderer from the beginning , who was Cain, hence the term Kenite, for Kenite means sons of , or decendants of Cain, and Cain's father is Satan, not Adam, which is also why Christ calls them a brood of serpents, for they are seed of the serpent


so both of you believe some human creatures aren't truly children of god?

is it therefore possible to determine divine or satanic paternity via dna (surely descendents of a serpent/human couple could be identified, no?).
Reply #7 Top
The spirits in prison have been sentenced to remain there, while the rich man will go through the millenium, to earn redemption.


where are you getting this from? Earn redemption? What's your reference?

spared the final death in the lake of fire.


God is hardly unfair


I usually agree with those that think God is unfair. Indeed He is unfair. We all deserve punishment for our sins, yet he saved us anyway. He is not giving us what we deserve.

is it therefore possible to determine divine or satanic paternity via dna (surely descendents of a serpent/human couple could be identified, no?).


DNA is a physical map of the body, not a spiritual. We are talking spiritual here. There is no DNA that I know of spiritually speaking unless God's spirit has DNA attached. While we can't always tell who is born of God and who is not, those that are in tune with God and are very connected can tell by discernment. Christ said, "By their fruits you shall know them." We are told the spirit bears witness as well. There's a connection that is made spiritually that is hard to describe. I've met Christians I knew were Christians before they declared to be so. I've even asked because I was so sure. Their fruit and the spirit spoke volumes. It's like that light that Jesus spoke of. You don't hide it under a bed or a bushel. It can and should be seen as a light for others to follow.

Reply #8 Top
KFC.
My reference is the last eight or nine chapters of the book of Ezekiel, which depicts the events during the millenium. I will submit an article about the spirits in prison. When Christ rose from the tomb, He went to this "hell" to free all those from Adam forward, who had not had the opportunity to gain redemption through Christ. He will visit that place on His return to earth to once again, free all those who fell short, to be taught and to prepare for the time when Satan is loosed from the pit. Those last chapters in Ezekiel, provide more detail about the millenial period than any other book of the Bible, including the book of Revelation.
Reply #9 Top
Kingbee.
This will require yet another article to answer you fully, but I will supply a nutshell's version here.
I believe some "human" creatures are not of God, because we are told that very thing. Satan's first attempt at foiling God's overall plan came through the seduction of Eve. Satan's second attempt came in Genesis chapter 6, when the fallen angels took to wife, the daughters of Adam, and produced the Giants, who are also referred to as "the dead". They were hybrids, mutations, monsterous in their physicality as well as their demeanor.
They are the dead, for there is no spirit within them, they were simply animated beings, with a brain, senses, and thinking capacity, but when they die they are nothing but a corpse.
Now as to DNA......one would have to have a sample of Satan's DNA, for a referrence, but since he is not flesh, but a created spiritual being of the archangel class, DNA, would have no meaning. It is these people, decendants of Cain, that we will know by their fruits, for they write, think, speak in such ways that are contrary to God's word. One surefire way you can tell a Kenite, is the fact that ground will not yield for them. The ground was cursed to Cain from the time he murdered Abel.....Neither Cain, nor his decendants can produce crops from the ground, which is why not a single one of them can farm. They can own farms, grocery stores, food processing plants, food shipping means and the like, but they cannot plant a seed in the ground that will grow.
Reply #10 Top
hmmmmmmm

well I'll look forward to that then because I believe all was "finished" on the cross. I don't believe Christ went to Hell. Yes, he set the captives free, agree there. But those from Adam forward are saved exactly as we are. They were saved looking ahead to the cross just as we are saved by looking back at the cross. Paul made it clear, "absent from the body is present with the Lord." The Hades/Paradise side that Lazarus was in is now empty. It no longer holds any prisioners. He set the captives free, Isa 61. Why would more go in there? The price has been paid for their ransom.

Those last chapters in Ezekiel, provide more detail about the millenial period than any other book of the Bible, including the book of Revelation


yes, there is much there but also we find additions all over like In Isaiah and Zechariah as well. We need to piece all together to make the whole thing make sense.



Reply #11 Top
They are the dead, for there is no spirit within them, they were simply animated beings, with a brain, senses, and thinking capacity, but when they die they are nothing but a corpse.
Now as to DNA......one would have to have a sample of Satan's DNA, for a referrence, but since he is not flesh, but a created spiritual being of the archangel class, DNA, would have no meaning


i'm very open to the possibility sociopaths are born, not made. in other words, sociopathy (or an inability to emote or empathize which seems similar to what you're describing as animated beings with brains, etc., but no spirit) may be a genetic condition. if that's the case, sociopaths may well eventually displace more humane humans.

that being said, where's the logic in satan being able to impregnate human females but not contribute dna? without benefit of the supernatural, if he does the first, he also does the other.

One surefire way you can tell a Kenite, is the fact that ground will not yield for them. The ground was cursed to Cain from the time he murdered Abel..


seems like an easy enuff test. why not make it mandatory...in the interest of keeping descendants of cain outta positions of authority?

we'd have to junk all that nonsense about children not being held to judgement for their fathers' sins but...
Reply #12 Top
KFC.
All those who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb are in heaven and shall not return to earth until the full Godhead defacto decends - they are fully resurrected. All those who are simply raised are still in danger. Resurrection is the putting on of immortality. Raised is being out of the flesh and in the spiritual body - a higher existence with the earthly vail removed, but still liable to death. Every Kenite shall be raised, as well as every atheist, but they must go through the millenium. Since Christ Himself will reign over that period, there is no grace and there is no faith, for faith is in something one cannot see and Christ will be there for all to see. Grace covers one through faith only by Christ being absent such as the present time.
Since all those who rejected Christ did not earn redemption through grace, they must now earn it through works during that thousand year period.

The Rich man thing: Well if the holding pen is empty with Christ having returned to Heaven, then why was the rich man still peering across the gulf at Lazarus, who was with Christ on the other side?

I have read your posts on other threads and I like what you have to say. I am, at times, a bit like a bulldozer in a flower pot, I know, but we are in the end times and there are people that must be sealed in their foreheads before antichrist comes and we no longer have the luxury of time on our side.

yer pal, Orionsbelt77
Reply #13 Top
Kingbee.

Sociopaths, serial murderers, rapists, etc, all were born with loose screws at birth, just as babies that are born with all sorts of disabilities right from the get go. Something went wrong during their development in the womb. God does not create confusion, just as He does not create natural disasters. The atmosphere is going to do what it naturally does, the result is floods, tornadoes , hurricanes, and the ever popular earthquake.

The giants were continually evil because they were flesh and sought only what the flesh naturally does without a spirit. A scorpion does what it does because it was created that way to begin with, it has no thoughts of good nor evil. It was given what God gave it, and it simply follows the plan.
The Giants are not of God. God specifically forbids mixing and mutating anything, whether its cattle, or seeds in the field. He created everything as a separate species and demands that they stay that way without man tampering with it.

Because the fallen angels did what they did they are sentenced to death, though the execution has not yet taken place. It is interesting to note though, that this very same thing is going to occur at the appearance of antichrist, and though the daughters of Adam may again be impregnated, time will not allow the actual births to take place.

Kenites have woven themselves so tightly into the fabric of all that governs our lives, that such a test and subsequent banishment is impossible. It is they, who are setting things up for the one world order to make way for their father's appearance as antichrist. These things, as bad as they may seem, are in step with God's overall plan. In the grand plan of the ages, we having been given free will, this is the only way in which God could redeem as many of His children as He could.

DNA. The only DNA that is available is from the flesh side, not the spiritual side. Therefore when Cain travelled to the land of Nod and took a wife, their children would have the DNA of the mother and not of the father, unless Cain would have posessed DNA from Eve as well. This is why Kenites claim that it is the mother of their children which determines the family tree, unlike the decendants of Adam, wherein the seedline is always determined by the father throughout the Bible.

yer pal, Orionsbelt77
Reply #14 Top
All those who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb are in heaven and shall not return to earth until the full Godhead defacto decends - they are fully resurrected


well yes and no. Yes, in heaven, but not fully resurrected yet. If you look at 1 Thess 4:16-17 you'll see this happens on the return where the "dead in Christ rise first" and then those who are alive will be caught up in the air.

This is talking about the time when the spirits receive their resurrected bodies. Up till then we are only disembodied spirits in heaven back with God.

Since all those who rejected Christ did not earn redemption through grace, they must now earn it through works during that thousand year period.


where are you getting this? This is not biblical. There is no such thing as merit based salvation anywhere in scripture. The only ones in the mill are those who are his when he returns, those he brings back with him and those born during the time. The rest are dead until the Great White Throne Judgement at the very end when all will be judged according to their works but will be found guilty because their works are not good enough. Only the work of Christ on the cross is good enough. We're judged on what he did, not on what we do...for salvation that is.

So it looks like you're thinking all go thru the Mill and I'm saying only those who are his. Look at Rev 19 for further clarification as well as the part about the Great White Throne judgement. That's the second resurrection which is basically the non-believers and this is after the mill.

The Rich man thing: Well if the holding pen is empty with Christ having returned to Heaven, then why was the rich man still peering across the gulf at Lazarus, who was with Christ on the other side?


Because when Christ was relaying the message it was true that both sides were full but when he died and was resurrected he emptied the side called Paradise and took them to his father with him. Remember he said to the thief on the cross...."Today, you will be with me in Paradise?"

I know, but we are in the end times and there are people that must be sealed in their foreheads before antichrist comes and we no longer have the luxury of time on our side.


yes, but you need to relax because it's all God's doing, not ours. We need to just spread the seed, and let the HS do the rest. Otherwise, we'd drown them in all the water (the word) we pour over them.

Besides it's not our jobs to have anything to do with this sealing process. It will be the work of the 144,000 Jews in the very end times. I believe we'll be raptured out before then...if I'm reading scripture correctly. I'm a pre-trib believer all the way.










Reply #15 Top
KFC.

Paul hastily sent a second letter to the Thessalonians, explaining that the first letter from them may have been misunderstood. Read the second chapter of 2 Thessalonians, where Paul warns them not to be decieved by anyone including their first letter. We will not see Christ again until after Satan appears as antichrist. Those ignorant of Christ's teachings ( Matt:24 - Mark:13 - Luke:21) are subject to this: 2 Thess verse 11: "And for this cause God send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" The lie is antichrist and the lie is also the "Rapture".
Anyone believing in the Rapture does not know its history. It was never taught by anyone prior to 1830. It is documented church history and can be traced back to Port Glascow, Scotland, to the visions of one Margaret Mac Donald, who was visited by spirit, and said that there was a "great darkness and err about it". She then goes on to say that it burst forth in a glorious light. Well, Satan is the bright and shining one and He knows scripture too. He also knows how to make wrong seem right and right , wrong.
If you are willing to disregard the words out of Christ's own mouth and hang your hat on 1 Thessalonians, then at least look things up in the Greek, for Paul uses the word "clouds" as meaning a large group of individuals, not clouds in the sky. It is this cloud of individuals that are returning with Christ for the millenium .The word "air" is not sky either- it is that which is breathable, or breath, and the breath is the spirit. When Christ touches his feet on earth , all flesh will fall away and we will meet him in the spirit.
Paul was an excellent Hebrew scholar, but a little rough around the edges in the Greek. There are, throughout the Bible, Idioms, Metaphors and Figures of Speech. One must also learn the definition of the Greek word "anti".
Anti, means: instead of - in place of - substitute. Satan is going to appear instead of Christ, and those who are waiting for a rapture are going to be the "dead in Christ", for they shall believe the lie, and worship antichrist, thinking they are going to be whisked away. It is these that are the first, these that did not wait for the true husband to return, whose lamps ran out of oil, who are with child when the husband returns and this is why the first shall be last, and the last ( the one's who waited for the true husband) will be first. This is also how Christ comes as a thief in the night, for the majority of people will think that antichrist is Christ, and why would you watch for someone who you think is already in your midst?

I am spreading seeds, as well as sounding the trumpet, and calling out the warning. Those 144,000, first of all are not Jews (Kenites), and though they be sealed in the foreheads, they will still bow the knee to antichrist until those that know the truth will be brought before Satan, and the words of the Lord will be spoken out of their mouths. After enough witnesses are heard from, the 144,000 will awaken from their slumber and begin to realize just what the heck is happening. The very elect will be the ones delivered up to death (death being another name for Satan). These are 7,000 in number. Remember God told Elijah that He had reserved 7,000 from each generation, and they will not bow the knee to antichrist.

I used to believe in the Rapture as well. It sure sounded good, but when I began to study the word in depth and referred constantly to the Hebrew and Greek for the proper meanings, the rapture started getting shaky. I was taught the rapture and swallowed it hook , line, and sinker, but the more I studied, (especially Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21) the feet of clay beneath the rapture gave way, for if Christ is returning for a rapture, why then the emphasis on warning us as to the events that take place BEFORE he actually arrives? The rapture fell over and smashed into pieces when I discovered and read a book published in 1975, by Dave Mc Pherson, titled The Incredible Cover Up. In it ,is all the documented history in great detail of the origins of the rapture or the any moment theory.
Remember also that Paul states something that just came to mind, and that is the "falling away first", which happens before the return of Christ.
This "falling away" is the greek apostasia - the great apostasy - in which people change their belief, not knowing that they have.
They are christians, but in worshipping antichrist, they have unknowingly "fallen away" from the true Christ.

yer pal, Orionsbelt77
Reply #16 Top
you're reading too many sidebooks. Stick to scripture. The rapture is definitely taught right there. I don't have to go to 1830. The Apostles themselves were expecting his return any day.

Also if you look carefully at the scriptures you'll see there is an A and B return. One says he will come as a thief in the night, another says "every eye will behold him" as he comes in the sky. How can that be? One says he will meet us in the air and another says his feet will touch the Mt of Olives. Which is true? This goes on and on with many references that show two diff parts to his return. One he's coming for the believers and the other after the war of Armageddon. Rev 3:10 says

"Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of tempation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."

How can this be without the rapture happening first? It says later in the same book that he will pour out his wrath on the whole earth without mixture.

Also if you look at the first three chapters of Rev you'll see they deal with the church age. Repeatedly is the warning, "hear what the spirit says to the churches." After these three chapters the church is never mentioned. Where are they? Notice after the wrath of God is poured out in 13:9 that it's said, "hear what the spirit says." gone is the rest of it..."to the churches."

Over the years I've noticed how all the diff groups like to claim they are the 144,000 witnesses in Rev 7 and 14. It is indeed the Jews and the plain reading of scripture supports this no matter what language you read it in.

You may want to study the Feast of Trumpets in Lev 23 (Rosh Hashanah)to see another side of this. Even the ancient Jewish Rabbis had their graves engraved with a Shofar....and Rosh Hashanah is the only Jewish Holiday Feast during the New Moon when the moon is the darkest (a thief in the night). I believe the rapture has something to do with this feast..... being a fulfillment of it.

Besides, if we are the bride of Christ, what kind of bridegroom beats up his wife before the wedding?








Reply #17 Top
All I can say is that some people get some pretty weird ideas from misinterpreting what they read.
Reply #18 Top
KFC.

Yes, the apostles were expecting His return, but not expecting a rapture. You do not have to go to 1830.....well of course not, those who indoctrinate the ignorant, wish to keep them in that state, which is why thoughout the period of time since 1830, there have been many attempts to cover up the origin of the rapture. Never mind that the rapture was not taught at all during the first 1,800 years of the church.

I told you how it is that Christ comes as a thief in the night, because they think He is already here. "Woe to them that are with child, and to them who give suck in those days", Christ warns, but in what days? The days before His return. But why? Why would Christ have anything against any woman with child? This is two fold, for one deals in a spiritual sense and the other a flesh sense. The spiritual sense is that He returns to find His bride pregnant by another, while He was away, for the multitudes are worshipping antichrist, thinking he is the husband. The flesh sense is in the fact that Christ warns that the end times will be likened to the days of Noah, and if you are ignorant of what took place then, you are not going to understand what He is trying to get across. The fallen angels will come with antichrist, and will once again come into the daughters of Adam, giving and taking in marriage, and at least some, become pregnant, just as they did in Genesis ch 6. This is one reason why the women were told to keep their heads covered as to avoid the advances of the fallen angels.

Yes , at least some will be kept from the hour of temptation, for they know in advance who antichrist is and they abhorr him, they are not tempted, for they are armed with the truth.

You keep mentioning air. It is a given that in order for Christ to touch His feet upon the earth, He will undoubtedly have to travel through earth's atmosphere, but when we meet Him we will be in the spirit, for we shall be like Him, and He is no longer in a flesh body.
I told you also that Paul used the greek word for breathable atmosphere, which could be construed as air, but the breath is the spirit , and the word cloud, Paul used as describing a great multitude of individuals. I will supply that very verse for you here. Hebrews chapter 12 verse 1:" Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a CLOUD of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us." It is plain that Paul is speaking of a multitude, just as he is in 1 Thess. Have you not ever heard of a cloud of locusts? So many locusts on the move that they resemble a dark cloud on the horizon?
2 Corinthians chapter 11, verse 6, Paul states that " But though I be rude in speech , but not in knowledge: but we have been throughly made
manifest among you in all things" Paul is stating that he is not expertly articulate in the greek language, but he knows damn well what he is talking about.

You make a very common mistake by confusing Jews with Israel. Jews are not, nor were they ever, or ever will be, Israel. I have been writing about the Kenites and that is who the Jews of today are. For one thing, in the Bible the term "Jew" is geographical and political. A jew was a resident in and around Judea. I am a Minnesotan, but knowing only that, you do not know anything about me as to my race, political viewpoints, etc.
The Kenites latched onto the tribe of Judah, but they were only tagging along with them as scribes, which is why the stick was broken and Judah is being punished for allowing the Kenites in ,and they are separated from Israel , though the stick will be joined together in the future, once the tares are separated from the wheat. Judaism has gone through many name changes.....Rabbinism, Medieval Rabbinism, Talmudism, Babylonian Talmudism, and finally to its name you are familiar with in the New Testament : The Pharisees. Read what Christ says about them and to them in John , chapter 8 and to the churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna in Rev 2:9 and again in 3:9. The parable of the Tares is about them being planted by an enemy, in with the wheat. The enemy is Satan and the Tares are his children, the descendants of Cain. Again, the word Kenite is transliterated, not fully translated as Cain and his descendants.
A Tare, is a plant that looks very much like wheat, until it matures. Wheat has golden grain and bows over....tares have black grain and consuming its grain is toxic and bitter to the taste, and tares stand fully erect, refusing to bow as it were. They are also the bad fig. There are two types, the Smyrna and the Capri, the Capri being bitter to the taste and toxic when consumed.
"He that hath ears, let him hear"
If one does not understand what happened in the garden with Eve, then one can never understand the Parable of the Tares, John chapter 8, Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.
Jews rejected Christ , for He is not their father and they are looking ahead for their messiah, who will be their true father, antichrist.
They are performing the negative part of God's plan and are to be left alone until the harvest, but as Christ said, they have usurped the seat of Moses and they "Say they are Jews, and are not , and do lie, and are of the synagogue of Satan. Christ says that He knows His sheep, and His sheep follow Him. The sheep are Israel, the Jews follow Him not, therefore they cannot be Israel.
Reply #20 Top
Christ says that He knows His sheep, and His sheep follow Him. The sheep are Israel, the Jews follow Him not, therefore they cannot be Israel.


ahhhhhh so you are a believer in the replacement theory? I totally reject that. We, the church are not Israel. There is a distinction. Israel, Gentiles and the Church and they do not cross over.

Christ is not done with the Jews or Israel, Jeremiah 31 is clear on that. The people and the land are not separated. Scripture is quite clear, God has blinded their eyes for a season. He will turn back to them when the fulness of the gentiles is complete, fulfilling his promise to Abraham way back in Genesis that ALL nations of the earth will be blessed because of him.

Reply #21 Top
Yes, the apostles were expecting His return, but not expecting a rapture.


oh, and this is not true. They were expecting the rapture....again go to Acts 1 and 1 Thess 4:16-17. The word rapture means "caught up." They were expecting to be "caught up" with Christ in the clouds on his return.

So I don't have to read anybody's opinion. I get my info from the scriptures themselves. Like I said, you're reading too many sidebooks to get your info.

Reply #22 Top
KFC.

You have mentioned "sidebooks" a second time even though I stuck to pure scripture in my last post, which you so cavalierly ignore. You ignore Christ's words, you ignore the Hebrew and Greek languages and you ignore historical fact. Ignorance is bliss.
Are you actually reading my posts?
Yes, Yes, Yes, the apostles were looking forward to rejoining Christ, but not by being sucked up in a giant shop vac hovering in the atmosphere.
Christ never taught rapture, and I challenge you to prove that He did, or is the fly away doctrine so secret that even He does not know about it yet?

Question. If the rapture is fact, then will Christians such as I get to ride the rapture train, or because even though I believe that Christ is my Lord and Savior but do not believe in the rapture, I must stay ?

Consider this then: IF there is a two stage second coming, which then is a second and third coming and since I am a saved by grace Christian, I get to be beamed up by Scotty the Lt.Cmdr angel of the Mothership.....I will be fine. IF on the other hand antichrist shows up promising rapture, disguised as the Lamb slain and you and all the rapturites worship him and I wait for the true Christ, I will be fine then too, for I know who comes first, and I will have not bowed the knee and will have waited for the true husband, but you , unfortunately ,will be hearing the words "Depart from Me, I never knew you."
Reply #23 Top
Anti, means: instead of - in place of - substitute. Satan is going to appear instead of Christ, and those who are waiting for a rapture are going to be the "dead in Christ", for they shall believe the lie, and worship antichrist, thinking they are going to be whisked away. It is these that are the first, these that did not wait for the true husband to return, whose lamps ran out of oil, who are with child when the husband returns and this is why the first shall be last, and the last ( the one's who waited for the true husband) will be first. This is also how Christ comes as a thief in the night, for the majority of people will think that antichrist is Christ, and why would you watch for someone who you think is already in your midst?


I still say that is downright mean, dirty and underhanded and a very sick sense of humor to allow that to happen and to judge people for being taken in.

If all is under gods control, he could find a less devious way to sort the !"" from the ASFFG,

Reply #24 Top
God has blinded their eyes for a season


What does this mean exactly? By god's own hand the Jews refused, and still do today, Christ?
Reply #25 Top
If the rapture is fact, then will Christians such as I get to ride the rapture train, or because even though I believe that Christ is my Lord and Savior but do not believe in the rapture, I must stay ?


simply put....no you don't have to believe it to be raptured. The prerequisite is belief in Him not the rapture. Many may believe in and live for God and just accept he's coming for them regardless of theology. You don't have to be a theologin to be "caught up."

I stuck to pure scripture in my last post, which you so cavalierly ignore.


I did not ignore. You're all over the place and from where I stand, very confusing to keep up with your random thoughts. Like this? Where the heck...and I've asked before...do you get this stuff? You didn't answer the first time.

But why? Why would Christ have anything against any woman with child? This is two fold, for one deals in a spiritual sense and the other a flesh sense. The spiritual sense is that He returns to find His bride pregnant by another, while He was away, for the multitudes are worshipping antichrist, thinking he is the husband. The flesh sense is in the fact that Christ warns that the end times will be likened to the days of Noah, and if you are ignorant of what took place then, you are not going to understand what He is trying to get across. The fallen angels will come with antichrist, and will once again come into the daughters of Adam, giving and taking in marriage, and at least some, become pregnant, just as they did in Genesis ch 6. This is one reason why the women were told to keep their heads covered as to avoid the advances of the fallen angels.



When Christ said, the end times would be like the days of Noah he didn't mean all this. He meant it would be life as usual. People would be marrying and giving in marriage.....in other words, life as usual....read it again.

I've been involved in many cults...they take the scriptures and make them say what they want them to say without using the full context and examining the scriptures the way they were written. You're reading way too much into the plain text of scripture. You have truth mixed in with opinion. There are 4 diff interpretations on the angel/spirits/men in Gen 6 and if learned theologins across the span of time have not been in agreement as to wether they were men or angels, what makes you so darn sure this is right? And to boot you're building your own theology on it. It's either that or you're reading somebody's take on this, cuz you are not getting this from the plain reading of scripture.


What does this mean exactly? By god's own hand the Jews refused, and still do today, Christ?


yes, Only God has the power to open the eyes of the blind, physical or spiritual.