"OMGoodness....Jews, Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists, etc.....they're all ATHEISTS in your mind? And you had the nerve to refer to ME as closeminded? Yeah, right!!!!"

Look at Dharmagrl's response; she read it as it was supposed to be read. Incidentally, if you want to comment on two things, just put it in one post, or you could be slandered for point-gathering.

~Buddha

Dan, I think it is a good thing whenever someone recognizes a short coming and sets their mind to change. That is how I took your comment and I believe that is what dharma was congratulating you on. I believe you have the ability to recognize that it is possible to believe in God but not believe Jesus is his son. You can stand your ground that it is wrong but you can still see that some people follow that belief.

ahhh you're not going to hell any more than I am....

You don't need a denomination or a relgion my friend. All you need is a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ according to Romans 10:9, 10. No church, no pastor, no prophet, no great teacher of widom can save ypu except for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ack.  That took this conversation ten steps back.

I thought this thread died, and I didn't read the last comments since my last one.

But, I just have to say that sgsmitty64's comment of: "Call me hard headed (is that possible with "thin" skin) but I stand by my assertion that k-girl was mocking with the *gasp*. Had it been a face to face conversation I think most would agree that was the tone. If me calling her to the mat over the mocking makes me thin skinned so be it, but then it would likewise be thin skinned to be upset over me mocking the oversoul as being not unlike "The Force"." to Brad really made me chuckle.  

What is the same between what *you* thought I said being mocking and "The Force" comment being mocking?  You.  You are the one who claimed both were mocking.  What I objected to was calling by beliefs "silly and shallow". 

You may want to realize that Brad can easily imagine the tone that I said things in since he talks to me in person each business day   And, no, it is not petty correcting somebody's spelling after they claim to know about it.  Sorry, that just doesn't fly.  But, thank you for calling me "shallow" again- it's really giving me a good idea of the "higher ground" that you stand on.

Biblepreacher, all I can say is what I fitting name you have.

What is the same between what *you* thought I said being mocking and "The Force" comment being mocking? You. You are the one who claimed both were mocking. What I objected to was calling by beliefs "silly and shallow".

Then we simply agree to disagree. What is mocking and offensive to me is not to you, that is our right eh? I found it to be a mocking tone and objectionable. No different in my book as you being offended that in *opinion* I found something to be "silly and shallow".

You may want to realize that Brad can easily imagine the tone that I said things in since he talks to me in person each business day

Point being......? Works for Brad but not I.

But, thank you for calling me "shallow" again- it's really giving me a good idea of the "higher ground" that you stand on.

Nah, I do not think you are shallow. My point was that for *me* the idealism is empty and lacking, surely you must feel the same about Christianity. And do understand, I never claimed to be on "higher ground".

You could at least spell Buddha correctly....... (I am thinking that you know little about it since you don't even know how to spell it.) Petty, don't you think? Maybe a spell checker could be a feature of the pay version of JoeUser?

Sorry, you called me "petty" that time, not shallow.  You called  my beliefs silly and shallow.  It was me that you called petty.

I think that any time somebody makes such statements, they are putting themselves on higher ground.  I right out said that I have knowledge of Christianity.  I right out said that it had merit.  When you said that you knew about "Bhuda" it just proved that you didn't even bother to look up the correct spelling.  It looks pretty bad when somebody says that your beliefs are "silly" then claim that they knew about them but didn't even take the time to look the proper spelling up.

And, the comment about me being a Stardock employee was really unneeded.  You must be *very* disillusioned if you think I would ban somebody because they don't agree with me.  You obviously have no clue of my character.

Oh, and iespell is a free spell check for online forums.  You don't need a site to provide you one.

...anyway, I think you two are talkign past each other.

JillUser - here's the point Christian's are trying to explain (poorly):

In Christianity God doesn't reject anyone. It's the other way around. Christ provides all people the opportunity for salvation.  The door is open to anyone who wants to walk through that door and into salvation. In Christianity, the default state is not salvation, people have to choose the gift of salvation that Jesus provides.

Now, I don't happen to agree with that. I don't personally believe in a heaven or hell as Christians believe in it. And if there is a higher existence after death, I believe there are many doors and many options beyond the one offered via Christianity.

But that is basically the answer to your question - it's not that God rejects anyone. It's up to each person to accept Jesus Christ and take the path to salvation -- or not. Different Christians will argue what exactly it means to accept Jesus into your heart or not (some will tell you that just living your life the right way qualifies because you have unconsciously accepted Christ as your lord into your heart while others will argue that is not nearly enough -- they can debate that all day).

None of which applies to me. Most devout Christians would agree that I am damned. Not because Jesus or God has rejected me but because I've rejected Jesus as my savior. I do not have faith. It has nothing to do with the fact I've lived my life as honorably and morally as I can. That's a side issue.

Sorry, you called me "petty" that time, not shallow. You called my beliefs silly and shallow. It was me that you called petty.

Well, I meant that the action was petty, which I guess would be calling you petty? Either way, it was not meant personally.

When you said that you knew about "Bhuda" it just proved that you didn't even bother to look up the correct spelling. It looks pretty bad when somebody says that your beliefs are "silly" then claim that they knew about them but didn't even take the time to look the proper spelling up.

Although it might be the case for some, grammer and spelling have nothing to do with knowledge of a subject. It has more to do with either education the language arts or laziness or both. This is the internet, not a newspaper, term paper or book.
I will look for the iespell, sounds like it could be useful.

And, the comment about me being a Stardock employee was really unneeded. You must be *very* disillusioned if you think I would ban somebody because they don't agree with me. You obviously have no clue of my character.

Fair enough, but you have to admit that from time to time someone sets people off their and bad things happen.

Brad gave a very good and concise answer to the original question. An answer that is not anti-Christian, anti-God or otherwise. This also serves the purpose pointing out why I do not spend a great deal of time trying to convert a majority of people and I wince when I see others beat there heads against the wall. It seems that Brad has good head knowledge concerning the essential concepts of Christianity. That he rejects it, disagrees with it or just doesn't get it is not something I or any other Christian will be able to change. Indeed, in this case "our" job is done and we move on.

None of which applies to me. Most devout Christians would agree that I am damned. Not because Jesus or God has rejected me but because I've rejected Jesus as my savior. I do not have faith. It has nothing to do with the fact I've lived my life as honorably and morally as I can. That's a side issue.

Exactly.

I have a real problem with the Christian belief that the only path the heaven is by accepting Jesus.  What about all the people that were here before Jesus?  Or, what about the people who have no idea what a "bible" is?  Will they not go to heaven even if they lead the most noble and helpful life they possibly can?

It seems that Brad has good head knowledge concerning the essential concepts of Christianity. That he rejects it, disagrees with it or just doesn't get it is not something I or any other Christian will be able to change. Indeed, in this case "our" job is done and we move on.

What's interesting about that is that I have almost daily conversations with a person here at work that is a Jehovah's Witness.  Now, I know that one of the main goals of a Jehovah's Witness is to bring more people into their religion.  People always get the wrong view of this, however (you know- the ones that go door to door).  I have the most open minded conversations with him about religion.  I have explained my "Buddhism with a Transcendentalist twist" to him, and he found it interesting.  I know he doesn't agree, but that is fine.  He also has explained how he believes that everyone needs to read the bible and interpret it there own way.  It is supposed to be the word of God, but the interpretation that somebody else gives you may not be.  I find that a very logical tact since so much of Christianity is based on how the bible is actually interpreted (which really makes up the different "churches".) 

I really don't think that you need to ever try to "convert" somebody in order to explain and *educate* somebody about your beliefs.  But, on the other hand, as soon as you say that somebody else's beliefs are trivial, that is when I feel that you are putting yourself above another person.  I really can't say that any spiritual belief is above any other, because it is so personal.  And, in the end, almost all of them involve a god in some form.  And, who can say that "god" didn't make it that way?  Maybe we are supposed to learn about all the different ways to believe in god.  Who knows?  Nobody does.  All you can do is choose your faith and stick to it and hope it is right in the end.

Maybe we are supposed to learn about all the different ways to believe in god.

I thought this was a very thought provoking statement.  I also believe in what was said about interpreting things your own way.  One of my problems with organized religion in general is lack of individual thought.  I don't care for brain washing or following the herd.  I don't believe in just accepting what others say without question.

Draginol, sgsmitty and KarmaGirl, thanks for bringing it back to topic. 

 

BTW, J Witnesses aren't trying to "convert" people. They are trying to save them. If you truly believe that those who haven't accepted Jesus as their lord and savor are damned, then it makes logical sense that you should do everything you can to save people from such a fate.

BTW, J Witnesses aren't trying to "convert" people. They are trying to save them. If you truly believe that those who haven't accepted Jesus as their lord and savor are damned, then it makes logical sense that you should do everything you can to save people from such a fate.

  

Yep.  That's why I said "bring more people into their religion"

The most recent way that I heard this explained was: You see your neighbors house on fire.  You yell to them in their back yard: "YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE".  They were distracted and didn't hear you, yet their house is still on fire and they don't know.  Do you walk away and think "Well, I told them, but they didn't listen.  My work here is done."  Or, do you keep yelling at them until they pay attention?  I would like to believe that anyone who has strong faith would keep repeating their message in hopes that it is heard.

I hope I found the end of this thread... I'm working on the basis for what Christians believe (with Lewis's help!) but WITHOUT using the Bible as proof for my arguments. For those of you interested, I hope you'll stop by my home. I've got milk and cookies or we can make some popcorn. Capt. Cornbread can bring some cheese.

BTW, J Witnesses do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. They do not believe in the Trinity. Neither do Mormons. I think this sets them apart, and as far as doctrine goes, outside the spectrum of orthodoxy according to most Christian scholars.

I'd really like to see what you thinkers think of what I've thought. : ) Thanks.

I look forward to reading your blog Shulamite.  I never understood the whole trinity thing either.  J Witnesses do believe that Jesus was the mesiah though.  Boy, I would love for a J Witness to come here and give their take on Heaven and Hell.  I just remember a bit about 144,000 being chosen for immortal life, ones who accpet the J Witness way will enjoy everlasting life on Earth and the rest just cease to exist.

Ok, the weirdest thing- I had a Jehovah's Witnesses "Awake!" publication in my door when I got home today.  I found it quite odd because I was just discussing our cleaning staff that leaves one of their "Good Word Weekly" publications on my desk every week one of the guys at work who is a Jehovah's witness.  The publication is actually kinda' interesting because it covers more than just religious stuff and it tries to put it into a current day setting.

There is a good article on the "Watchtower" site that explains their relationship with Jesus: http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_06.htm

It's amazing how a book can be interpreted so many different ways.

 

Jill, I don't know you but I have no reason to doubt what you say, that compared to many others you are indeed a good person. But the Bible warns us that "when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding." (II Corinthians 10:12). It's dangerous to measure ourselves against others because, while by contrast we may look pretty good, the standard by which God eveluates us is not the morality of the people around us. Instead, God measures us against His own perfection and declares that we "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." That's why we are all in danger of going to hell no matter how good we try to be. Try as we might, we can never measure up to the holiness of God. And so that's why God sent His Son Jesus Christ, who by His perfect sacricfice on the cross fully paid for our sins. And because our sins have been paid for salvation is a free gift of God's love to all who will receive it by faith in His Son (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Kill the Lizard, might I say that is a disturbing handle you have.  Anyway, your "measuring up to God's perfection" stuff is exactly the kind of thing that turns me off about Christianity.  The whole "perfect sacrifice" thing makes no sense to me either.  I just can't by the thought that aacepting Jesus is the pivotal, no exclusive point on what eternity will mean for any given person.  That is just how I feel but I appreciate all who have tried to show me otherwise.

The biggest problem with people today: they do not have a developed doctrine of soteriology. In theological terms, the doctrine of salvation. I would also add that people who claim to have knowlege of what the 2 billion or so Christians in the world believe to be erroneous, and a downright fool's errend. I doubt many people have actually even looked at modern third-world theologians. I also doubt if most people have read St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Barth, Edwards, Tertillien, Origen, or whoever.

Just some rambling thoughts...

Jiggles, I am not saying that what Christians believe is erroneous.  I am however saying that it can neither be proven nor disproven.  I do think I will do some more reading on theology.  I currently feel you have to have faith in order to see the validity.  That could change.  I am not closed minded about it.  I am just saying it doesn't currently make sense to me.

I do not know who said it, and I read many of the comment, but when people say "according to Christian theology," which denomination though? Pentecostals are different from Anglicans, who are different to Baptists, who are different to Orthodox, who are different to Catholics. And need I add the current crisis in the Anglican commune to portray the false belief that there is a homogenious belief system to Christianity.

Jill, I feel that being a good person is more important than anything to do with what you believe in. Everyone has their own point of view of what right and wrong is and of what they believe in.
The thing that you should most keep in mind is that, all those people who are telling you that "You're going to hell" are, more than likely, just saying that so that they will not have to think about themselves. I'm 100% positive that they have all done some bad things that they wish they never had. By pointing the finger at you, they take the finger away from themselves.
As a matter of fact, a "true" Christian would not point the finger at you in the first place. Somewhere in the book of Mathew, Jesus states not to be judgemental (I just started reading the bible a bit). I can't remember the exact part though.
By the way, this can be said about anyone who blaims another for their faults; not just Christians.

Hey Jill
If heaven is where all the people who damned you to hell then would you really want to be there for the rest of eternity? I think that would be hell.

Good point PB.  I guess it would depend on the alternative.  The thought of just blinking out of existance isn't scary to me, sad, but not scary.  Eternal suffering though, I just can't even wrap my brain around what that could mean.  Eternal anything is a difficult concept for me.

Hombre, thanks for breathing new life into this blog and thanks for the kind comment.  I try to treat others with respect and kindness.  I love my family and friends and cherish every moment with them.  I look at each new person as a potential friend.  I don't know if that qualifies me as a "good" person or not.  I am just living within my own definition of "good" and am hoping I am judged fairly if I am ever judged by a higher power.