So, I'm Going to Hell

I have always wondered how an all knowing God could look at me and send me to Hell

Me too.

I don't think you are really going to Hell (If one even exists.) for all the reasons that you've just outlined. I think, if there's goodness in your heart, and in how you live your life, it would be impossible to get 'sent down'. I've always thought that Heaven and Hell is what you believe it. That is, if you truly believe that there is a God that will bar your way into Heaven and then believe in a Hell with varying levels that you would fall under, then so be it. I find it hard to believe that people, some people really do believe in that kind of thing... but maybe, since they do believe it, that's the kind of place that they get sent to, if they've sinned enough, and decline to ask for forgiveness.

Just keep on being yourself and the person you strive to be... I think that's the important thing to be concerned about in how you live your life.
Nic

How do you guys feel about the concept of original sin? I have known people who have had babies that were terribly ill and they were terrified because the infant hadn't been baptized yet. That makes no sense to me personally. If baptism is a symbol of repentance, what does a newborn have to repent? Baptism is one of those things I think some take too literally. The act of baptism isn't what cleanses you of sin, your actions in life and request for forgiveness should be what counts. Going through the motions without having the thought behind it is worse than having the thought and forgoing the motions in my opinion.

You weren't baptized as a baby-- so what? If someone tries to use the verse that you must be born of water, they're interpreting it wrong. That verse in the Bible is talking about having to be born of water, as in the water breaking in your mother. So basically you have to be human to inheret salvation... pretty hard, eh?

Don't belong to a church-- Where in the Bible does it say that's a sin? I would ask the person that told you that you were going to hell for this. It's nonsense... The Bible does say that believers shouldn't give up meeting together etc. But I wouldn't say it's a sin.

Lived with your fiancee-- Who are other people to judge you? Maybe they should remove the plank in their own eye before looking that the speck in yours. I will be honest, but not judgemental. The Bible does say that premarital sex is a sin. But does that make you any worse than any other un-forgiven sinner? No. No sin is worse than another. Lying, lusting, stealing, coveting, putting anything above God are all sins. Not one is worse than the other.

We are all sinners; we all fall short and none of us can make it on our own. The Bible says something that contradicts what you believe though... and again, not to be judgemental, but I must point this out.

You said "I am a good person... I am respectful of my parents. I have never harmed another. I donate time and money to charity. I help friends and family whenever possible."

If you think this is what will get you to heaven, you're dead wrong. Who is anyone to say you're going to hell? But then again, the Bible is one to say how to get to heaven, and it's not by works. You'll always fall short if you're trying to get to heaven this way. Honestly, it's easier than "being good" and "following a bunch of boring rules" It may seem odd. But I don't care how hard anyone tries, we've ALL sinned and can't get to heaven on our own accord. The only way we can get to heaven is by being perfect, and following every little law. Stick with me here...

God loved you so much that He wanted to make an easier way for you to get to heaven. Once you accept that you are no longer bound to the law. He loved each one of us, even people like Hilter, that He sent His son, Jesus, to die for us. Basically Jesus took the sin of the world upon His back as He carried the cross, and He died a horrible death so that our sins would be gone. He was perfect. He was the only one in earthly history that never disobeyed God. He did it for us, He did it for you.

So, all we have to do is accept it. Let Him be our Lord. No more rules. Just ask Him to forgive you, for all the wrong you've done. You can never earn your way, you will always miss the mark. Believe in Him, which it sounds like you already do. Believe in Him with your heart though. Know that HE'S the only way you can get to heaven. It's amazing the peace that comes over you then. He wants to take your sin, only let Him.

Hope this made sense to you. If you want any of the references for some of the stuff I said the Bible says, I'll be more than happy to take the time to find them. If you have any questions just ask.

"I tend to think that God will judge me on those merits."
He will, after you're saved. But all the good you've done won't matter one ioda if He's not your Saviour, if you haven't let Him take your sins.

Sarah

"How do you guys feel about the concept of original sin? I have known people who have had babies that were terribly ill and they were terrified because the infant hadn't been baptized yet. That makes no sense to me personally. If baptism is a symbol of repentance, what does a newborn have to repent? Baptism is one of those things I think some take too literally. The act of baptism isn't what cleanses you of sin, your actions in life and request for forgiveness should be what counts. Going through the motions without having the thought behind it is worse than having the thought and forgoing the motions in my opinion."

Right on.

"...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."
1 peter 3:21

In my Matthew Henry commentary, it says of this verse:
"What he means by saving baptism; not the outward ceremony of washing with water, but it is the baptism in which there is a faithful answer of a resolved good conscience..."

The good conscience is your clear conscience after the recognition that Christ has taken all your sins.

Matthew 16:16 says "Whoever believes and is baptize will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemed." it DOESN'T say "but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemed"

God looks at the heart, not if you're baptized or not.

This about sums it up in Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace (the fact that Christ died, his gift of grace on the cross) you have been saved, through faith(accepting that gift and believing)--and this not from yourselves it is the gift of God--not by works(giving to charity etc..)..."

What did baptism mean to Jesus? He was baptized by John when he was 30, right?

Jill, you have a very similar viewpoint on religion as I do. I feel that I am a good person based on my actions and ethics that govern my life. I know that it's wrong to do certain things, not because they are sins, but because they hurt other people.

I am unconventional in the fact that I don't believe in sin. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I don't believe that there is one all powerful being that governs EVERYTHING. My pragmatic nature causes me to be a man of little faith. I really have no desire to be a part of any Western religious group. Maybe it's because I see the people in these churches doing so many things against their own faith that it garners a sense of basic distrust. But this is just a part of human nature. I don't think it's anyones fault per se.

As far a being born with original sin...I can't begin to tell you how much of a crock I think that is. I just find it funny that if man was made in God's image, why then is he born with original sin? Does that mean that your God is also a sinner? If he wasn't, then man would be pure or cleansed when brought into this world (or so you would think). It just doesn't make any sense to me.

It's funny how the people on JU who normally talk so much about their religion are strangely silent whenever a question about it comes up.

It's funny how the people on JU who normally talk so much about their religion are strangely silent whenever a question about it comes up.

I would not say they are silent, BigDreamer summed it up pretty well.

I do have a problem with the thought that someone can be a ruthless murderer but then decide that Jesus is their saviour and will then go to heaven. That just doesn't make sense to me. I have problems with the idea of heaven and hell in general. What does it really mean for Jesus to take your sins?

I guess I don't know how to react to Jeremy; one person says we're way to "religious" on this site and then someone else says we don't ever talk about it. Funny. I guess perspective is everything. I'll just keep being me.

Sarah said it all. Sin means you miss the mark and it's an archery term. Christianity is the only religion with a leader who claims to be sinless. If a man were to walk into your room and look you in the eyes and that man were Jesus Christ, could you say, "I'm just as Pure as you?" I don't think anyone could.

"I just find it funny that if man was made in God's image, why then is he born with original sin? Does that mean that your God is also a sinner? If he wasn't, then man would be pure or cleansed when brought into this world (or so you would think). It just doesn't make any sense to me." Here's how this works and I urge you to check this out for yourself, btw. Man was created in the garden in His image without original sin. Man had free will so that he'd not be a puppet, but that his love would mean something. It's a choice. The tree he could not eat from in the garden gave adam that choice. Adam ate from it. The first sin: voila. That "nature" came from adam, not God. God said every person decended from Adam would have a sin problem. And we do. It's automatic. Baptism doesn't affect this problem. (Note: Babies do go to heaven in death. King David mouned his sick child but got happy after his death because he knew he'd be with him again after he died too. God is merciful.) This is why the virgin birth was so important: Jesus is not the son of Joseph. He is the son of God, fulfilling prophesy. To fulfill prophecy as our Messiah, he had to be 1) born of a Virgin 2) in the line of King David 3) in Bethlehem 4) be a male 5) and be completely sinless. There's a whole bunch more prophecy, like none of his bones could be broken at his death and so forth. But the virgin birth meant that the Holy Spirit (God in the Spirit) worked a miracle to create a being that is half man half God that is without original sin and could therefore serve as the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

I think just believing you're good is something that "get's you through" feeling bad about any particular thing you've done wrong or even conviction for sin as whole. If you've ever felt the weight of doing things wrong and having no solution, but you wave that feeling away with "but I'm a good person," that's not your voice. That voice was in the garden too.

Christianity is the only religion with a leader who claims to have risen from the grave. He appeared once to over 500 witnesses. In Jewish law, one only needed two males for something to be accepted in court. There's more evidence that Jesus rose from the grave (non-Biblical evidence) than there is that Julius Caesar lived.

I'm curious. If hell doesn't come from lack of baptism (theif on the cross), lack of church attendance (ditto), lack of perfection period (thank God heaven's full of hypocrits like me!), and salvation is as easy as believing and receiving, how does one justify to oneself waving that gift away? Through denial of imperfections? Through insistance of perfection? or through lowering God's standard for Him? How?

It's funny how the people on JU who normally talk so much about their religion are strangely silent whenever a question about it comes up.

It's the ones who predict fire and brimstone that shy away from serious discussions about religion (and other related issues). Especially on certain people's blogs. They know some of us won't tolerate that crap. I don't mind having serious discussions about it, from different perspectives, but those kind, I can do without.

sorry for the double post... Jill, you asked, "what does it mean for Jesus to take your sins?"

First, let me say that I beleive no one is interested in spiritual things without the Holy Spirit being behind it. (It's Biblical... so let that explain why I take these questions so seriously.)

Jesus is perfect. He's called the Lamb of God. By His Stripes we are Healed (Read Isaiah for prophesy about Him.) In the old testament, the Lord had a covenant with Jewish people and all those who would accept and obey his laws. Part of it was that when they sinned (made any mistake, disobeyed anything at all) they would have to make a sacrifice to Him. For the more serious things, it was a lamb. But there were standards. Not any lamb. It had to be a lamb without blemish --- no bruises, completely white, no black hairs, and of a certain age. No broken bones, et cetera. There was a certain way the lamb had to be killed. The priest would impute the sins of the person/family onto the lamb and the lamb would be destroyed, freeing the family/person from their sins. See, back then, a lamb meant a lot to a family. It was income, sustenance, and a whole lot more. But sin had to mean even more. That's the sacrifice -- to give up something important for something you really want/need. Jesus is our High Priest. We no longer need a priest to go to God for us. We have Him. He imputed (charged) our sins to Him. He only had to die once because he was the perfect sacrifice. The lamb is symbolic of him. No blemish. No sin. No broken bones. Et cetera.

have you heard the statement, "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives within me?"

paul said that. he was a murderer. He said, "I was formerly a murderer, a persecutor and a blasphemer." See, When Paul encountered Christ, Paul accepted that salvation and forgiveness. He allowed Christ to transform him. It's a living sacrifice God desires now. He wants us to become unselfish, not religious. to do what HE desires, not perform routines.

in Isaiah, God asks, "Is this the fast I called for? Is this the religion I demanded? Is the sacrifice I asked for?" He's angry because the people have substituted religion for Love for Him. The first commandment is to Love God before all else. So you may see religious folks, but no guarntee they're pleasing Him. He wants devoted people. Living Sacrifices. People who aren't afraid to make others unhappy if its God's work they're doing.

The reason he will let a murderer go to heaven and not let a "good" person go to heaven is based on one thing. Did that person lay their sin, their mistakes and errors and imperfections however large or small, at the Savior's feet and ask for forgiveness? God hates a proud heart. One that says, "I don't need you." He overjoys when the prodigal son returns home, however. He wraps his returned son in love and carries him in.... despite the fact he's been eating and sleeping with pigs, an abomination. It's about love, Jill. He's not going to give you anything you didn't take from his open, outstretched hand.

Shulamite, thanks for clearing that up for me. I've not really delved into the history of Christ and all of the basis of Christianity, so I only have my own ignorance to blame for misunderstanding that. I still have a question though...if Jesus was to be considered half man and half God, wouldn't he then have sin, since he was still partly man?

Regarding Adam: Though I don't particularly believe in this particular account, I'll run with it for the sake of argument here. I take it that the tree was put there as a test to man...to see whether he would cross the line and do something that was forbidden. It seems silly to me that God would punish every person after Adam for his mistake. After all, if your God forgives people for their sins, and lets them into heaven...wouldn't he have forgiven Man at some point for a mistake that had been made at his creation? Wouldn't he see that maybe Man had learned from Adam's mistake and changed his ways, or are we worse off now than we were in the time of Adam and Eve? And just as a point of clarification for me...was Eve punished for Adam's actions?

-- B

...They know some of us won't tolerate that crap...

I see nothing in BigDreamer's response that invalidates the "fire and brimstone", rather she clearly outlined the plan to avoid such. It is all a matter of delivery I guess.

I just want to say that Bigdreamer and Shulamite should be deemed the preachers on the "Scurvvy Buttercup".....

They're awfully good at it.

Trinitie

Why can't one ask God directly for forgiveness? Why is accepting Jesus as one's saviour the end all be all? Shulamite, when you talk about Paul having been a murderer, I have to admilt I regard that differently than a murderer today. You are talking about a time before the teachings of Jesus. The world was a much different place. I just can't personally make that leap that someone can be so evil as to brutally murder then change course and be deemed holy because he lay his sins at Jesus' feet.

Okay, so, let's say a person leads a good life. Is kind and generous, selfless and humble. This person prays to God for forgiveness and guidance but this person just doesn't believe in his heart that Jesus was actually the son of God. He doesn't believe the bible was actually the words of God but merely teachings of the time. He believes that Jesus was a very important teacher who gave mankind good guidelines on how to live a good life. That person just doesn't feel in their heart that they have been shown the divinity in Jesus. So that person goes to Hell, right?

I've always thought that Heaven and Hell exist as dreams that we have on our deathbed. It's been said that the last thing that you think about before you fall asleep, is the basis of your dream. If you are on your deathbed, then you would probably be thinking about whether you are about to enter heaven or hell. If you truly feel like you have lived a good life, then you will undoubtedly dream about going to heaven, and that dream will be your after life. If you think you have lived a sinful life, then you will lie there worrying about hell, and consequently dream of hell. While this doesn't work for all instances, it does lay the theory that I believe each person chooses the destiny of their afterlife.

Since you feel like you have lived an honest and good life, I don't see why you wouldn't be jammin with Hendrix by the pearly gates.

I see nothing in BigDreamer's response that invalidates the "fire and brimstone", rather she clearly outlined the plan to avoid such. It is all a matter of delivery I guess.

Of course you don't. I didn't mean her. For the regular bloggers, we are pretty familiar with the people who are characterized as the 'fire and brimstone' set. These people can often be found ranting and raving, but usually on their own blogs, or on other people's blogs who would put up with that kind of stuff. These people rarely want to have a discussion, but would rather spend a lot of energy hurling ambiguous quotes from the Bible and attack people's beliefs without hesitation. I rather appreciate learning from people like BigDreamer, even though it's not my own religion.

How would any of us here on Joeuser have the slightest clue about the decision process of an omnipotent and omniscient being of any disposition? Most of us can't even tell what *Muggaz* is thinking! I think Jill has a perfectly valid idea. I just live my life and what deal witht he consequences of it in the afterlife if there is one.

I logged off for hours and returned.... wow so much to answer. Long responses are just ignored, too. Skimmed mostly. I think I'll try to answer these questions in an article of my own so it won't get ignored/skimmed. This is so important and I don't think one can take it lightly, however one believes. I'll make the title "to answer your questions..." Oh, and by the way... I'm not one of those annoying people who thinks they know it all. There's a lot I don't know. But there is a lot I've studied. I'm a faithful reader and I absorb philosophy and the like. I read trade books and non-fiction extensively. So I dont know it all... but I'll tell you what I believe/think/and do know for sure...

"I do have a problem with the thought that someone can be a ruthless murderer but then decide that Jesus is their saviour and will then go to heaven. That just doesn't make sense to me. I have problems with the idea of heaven and hell in general. What does it really mean for Jesus to take your sins?"

There's so much here to answer, as Shulamite said, but I'll just stick to this one problem and hope it helps.

The bible makes it pretty clear that what we do has nothing to do with heaven and hell. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, says the bible. No man comes to the father but by me, said Jesus. (In Hebrew, it's gender neutral.) Doing good is just something a Christian does because it's what God wants him to do and a Christian generally wants to please God. Also, on judgement day, it sounds very uncomfortable as God lists all of your sins one by one... so it seems worth it to be good so as to avoid as much discomfort as possible.

When Jesus "takes your sins," what it refers to is a verse and the bible that says "the wages of sin is death." Death in that case means judgement- a physical death, and then eternity in Hell. Jesus paid the price that you owe for your sins, and when you allow him, he will take away your sins so that you no longer owe anything. And not just all your past sins- he takes away your sins from the past, and the future. Not bad, eh? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Gotta love God.

~Dan

If everyone thought along these lines ("I live the way that suits me."), it would be utter chaos. Because everyone thinks that they are a basically good person. Just ask alot of people in prison or who engage in illegal activities fequently. They will tell you sincerely that they are good. Basically good. Too bad what they do hurts many other people, as long as it's not them and their immediate friends and family.

A lot of rapists think that there is nothing wrong with what they do, "She wanted it, for goodness sake!" They go on living, learning and being thankful in the ways that fit them.

Can I ask, what things do you debate on that aren't 'subjective'? If it's open to debate, then there is a very high chance that it has a subjective element to it.

You're arguments, in my opinion, are shallow and convenient. But then again, that's subjective and not worth debating.

And now for something completely different!!

When the Nazarene genius said to his disciples, possibly including his lover, Mary, "the kingdom of God is at hand," he very likely did not mean what most contemporary Christians receive as indoctrination about that passage. What he meant, arguably, and what makes sense to me from my study of what we can say, with all of God's gifts of wisdom and insight, actually went on in Palestine lo these many years ago, is that WE ARE NOW PRIVILEGED TO LIVE IN THE BLESSED PRESENCE OF GOD---Right NOW!!! In this view, Hell is the approach of death without having received that blessing.

Similarly, when Jesus offered that "there is no way to the Father, but through me," Elaine Pagels and others of the Historical Jesus Project, who have assiduously studied ALL the gospels, not just those centered around the works of the "Committee-That-Was-John", contend that the best interpretation of his meaning is that he intended his followers to embrace this seize-the-day and live in the heavenly bliss of the gift of life NOW approach that "the kingdom of God is at hand" might also elicit.

All are entitled to their own views. I like mine. Your only risk of hell, JillUser, is if you fail to live as if heaven awakes with you and beds you down each day.

Good decent people have a hard time conceiving of a system in which you are not judged solely by your behavior but by what you put your trust in. Jesus does forgive murderers, but if they live a long life afterwards, he expects that they clean up their act. Otherwise they have not really trusted in Jesus but have just tried to find an easy out. God's measuring stick is himself. Since none of us measure up to him, then we are condemned. Thus he gave us a way out. If you did put your trust in Jesus, probably not much would change. You would still be a good decent person. However, you would see the world and God differently.

As for Hell--it is separation from God. The eternal flames are just a metaphor. Heaven is being in God's presence.