MAHAMOUDIYA AND US MILITARY RESPONSE

A GOOD BEGINNING

The recent announcement at Baghdad that the 6 marines responsible for the rape and murder of a 15 yeatr old Iraqi girl and her entire family have beencharged with muder, rape, destruction of evidence, obstruction of justice and the like is a welcome step. The March 12 incident at Mahamoudiya has not received the same attention as the Hadita incident and probably that crime would have been forgotten but for the serious psychological problems displayed by the unit that participated in the March 12 event. That these marines belonged to the famous 101 Air Borne is particularly important because they have sullied the reputation of one of the bravest of the US military . The question that needs to be asked is why do such incidents happen? One can always say that in war such incidents are passe. However the number of such unfortunate events in which US serviceman are involved in increasing and there is an air of impunity with which such crimes are excecuted.

It is no ones case that the US military leadership actively encourages its men to indulge in such crimes. However the fact remains that the lower ranks of the chain of command are more likely to cover up such incidents and at times even abet in the fabrication of evidence, as is suspected in this case. In fact that men who indulged in that crimes had served 2 terms of duty in Iraq and probably were driven by despair. Since the toops are not being rotatyed enough, the potential for such breakdown of morale is far greater now than ever before.

The al-Maliki regime has staked claim over the soldiers responsible for the crime at Mahmoudiya on the ground that they have jurisdiction over such matters. The fact is that after al Maliki spoke of his so called plan of reconcilliation, the level of sectarian violence had dramatically increased. In fact just yesterday scores of gun toting Shiaas drove all over Baghdad stopping cars and pulling out passengers and killing those with Sunni names. Even women and children were not spared marking a dangerous turn in sectarian violence.

In spite of these glitches, the step to try the marines is welcome. The world is watching the outcome of the trial.
4,890 views 32 replies
Reply #1 Top
As usual you automatically assume they are guilty. In our system of justice a person or persons are presumed innocent until they are proven guilty. Perhaps where you live it isn't that way. You sure seem to like to think in terms that if an American is accused of something, they surely must have done it.

If it's proven they did it, they'll be punished and you'll be ecstatic. If they are not proven guilty I'm sure you'll just scream it's a travesty of justice or some other crap.

Reply #2 Top
Silly question - Since when is the 101st Infantry(Airborne) Division (18th Airborne Corps) a member of the US Marine Corps? Last I checked, 101st Infantry (Airborne) was a unit in the US Army. Stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY last I checked ('though, they were due to deploy to the sandbox last fall).

I wonder how many other facts are "overlooked" in your zealous, anti-US rants if something as basic as this is missed in your fact checking?

From your other writings, I'm assuming that you're at least a legal resident (if not a citizin) of the US, correct? Then why the blatant anti-US attitudes when you're still a resident here?
Reply #3 Top
As usual you automatically assume they are guilty. In our system of justice a person or persons are presumed innocent until they are proven guilty. P


I have not assumed that they are guilty: my point is that such crimes do take place in Iraq and what has been revealed is only the titip of the iceberg. The USA went to war against Iraq without justifiable reason and in an illegasl war such crimes are only to be expected. Not all US servicemen are indulging in such shameful acts.

From your other writings, I'm assuming that you're at least a legal resident (if not a citizin) of the US, correct? Then why the blatant anti-US attitudes when you're still a resident here




Being critical of US policies in Iraq does not make me anti American. USA is a fabulous country and its people are ctizens of a vibrant creative, educated society. I have spent several years in the USA and have deep affection for many of its institutions and civil society. However in the realm of power politics, USA must learn the wisdom of what USA's greates President had said a century ago-- I refer to Treodre Roosevelt. WALK SOFTLY BUT CARRY A BIG STICK. What I see now is the shuffle of arrogance of the likes of George II and the other Bushmen whose coarse language of threat wouls shame even the most primitive. See the rhetoric over North Korea, Iran and earlier Iraq. See what the USA is doing in Iraq. Can you be a silent spectator when you know that your tax dollars are going to finance death, rape and mayhem in Iraq. This is not a RANT as you call it, but a deply held conviction and more thn 65% of the American public feel so.
Reply #4 Top
The question that needs to be asked is why do such incidents happen? One can always say that in war such incidents are passe. However the number of such unfortunate events in which US serviceman are involved in increasing and there is an air of impunity with which such crimes are excecuted.


1 - Wrong question. 2 - Assumes facts not in evidence.

What other "such unfortunate events" are known? What crime is ever committed without an "air of impunity"? You are trying to further demonize a crime which requires no such help. If it happened as rumored, it was as bad as it gets and these troops should be court-martialed and if convicted given a harsh sentence. Having said that, they remain innocent until proven guilty.

I'd like to see you wax poetic about the crimes of the terrorists the way you do about any & all alleged crimes by our troops, Bahu. It would do a lot for your credibility.
Reply #5 Top
You are trying to further demonize a crime which requires no such help. If it happened as rumored, it was as bad as it gets and these troops should be court-martialed and if convicted given a harsh sentence.


The crime of the soldiers demonised the event. I am only reporting on what happened and it is not pretty.I am sure that the soldiers will be punished if only to restore the badly dented credibility of the US. But whyu? An innocent 15 year old raped and killed and her entire family killed. There seems to be no sense in the US occupation if this is the freedom and liberty that Bush and the Bushmen promise.
Reply #6 Top
We agree about the crime being deplorable, but to generalize it or call it representative of the nature of our presence there is intellectually dishonest.
Reply #7 Top
The USA went to war against Iraq without justifiable reason and in an illegasl war such crimes are only to be expected.


The war in Iraq was not illegal and it was justified through U.N. resolutions and the cease fire agreement.

Why is it every anti-U.S. person here just makes up their own facts?
Reply #8 Top
#3 by Bahu Virupaksha
Wed, July 12, 2006 00:59 AM




I have not assumed that they are guilty: my point is that such crimes do take place in Iraq and what has been revealed is only the titip of the iceberg.


The recent announcement at Baghdad that the 6 marines responsible for the rape and murder of a 15 yeatr old Iraqi girl and her entire family have beencharged with muder, rape, destruction of evidence, obstruction of justice and the like


but for the serious psychological problems displayed by the unit that participated in the March 12 event.


Can you be a silent spectator when you know that your tax dollars are going to finance death, rape and mayhem in Iraq.


The crime of the soldiers demonised the event


I am sure that the soldiers will be punished


These are all your own words and they show you to be a liar when you claim that you have not assumed they are guilty. You have them tried and convicted already. If it's something negative about the US or the US miltary you automatically assume it must be true and your own words prove it.
Reply #9 Top
Bahu suffers, as do most administration critics, from Rather's disease: the truth of the allegations is never the issue, what's important are the issues the allegations raise.

This allows him to simply use the allegations as a springboard for more generalized and otherwise unfounded aspersion-casting on the pretense that the allegations are simply the inevitable consequence of the typical soldier's behavior, or some misguided policy, or some short-sighted general's idiocy, or whatever the critique-du-jour contends. The use of allegations as proof-positive of their prejudiced views is so CBS.

These soldiers may turn out to be guilty as hell, but until that's determined, this is all just melodramatic blather. Even if they are proven to have committed the crimes in the exact manner described in the rumors floating around, their guilt will be evidence of... their guilt, and nothing more. Not that that will or would stop people like Bahu from overplaying it.
Reply #10 Top
Even if they are proven to have committed the crimes in the exact manner described in the rumors floating around, their guilt will be evidence of... their guilt, and nothing more


If this is the case then law should not recognise war crimes at all. Why then are the leaders of Liberia, Serbis, and before then the Nuremberg defendentsd tried for war crimes and crimes against humanuity. If guilt is fixed only to the lowly soldiers and not the poltical leadership that sent them tere. This was the plea of Eichmann and it did not work then in Jerusalem and will not work now. The soldiers may be guilty as hell asd you say biut what about the political leaders who took the decision to invade Iraq illegally and impose an American style Identity politics there creating sectarian and civil strife.
Reply #11 Top
These are all your own words and they show you to be a liar when you claim that you have not assumed they are guilty


The US Department of Defence has charged these marines and if they escape without punishment it will only prove that the US is not serious about the WAr crimes of its troops. It will not prove the innocence of the troops. So that that.
Reply #12 Top
The al-Malaki regime wants to try Stg Green and his 5 codefendents. Will the Bush tregime hand them over. The answer is no. Then how can you can you say that there will be a fair trial. These 5 men stalked that girl staked out the territory where she livesd with her parents and attacked her raped her and then killed her and the family. Only her 2 younger brothers escaped because they were in school at that time and have become orphans. Initially the blame for the incident was sought to be put on the Insurgents and only when 3 soldiers of the 101 Air Borne were found dead with sighs of mutilation that the other soldiers began to spill the beans. In any event thisd is a cold blooded war crime and not your everyday murder as some assume.
Reply #13 Top
Bahu suffers, as do most administration critics, from Rather's disease: the truth of the allegations is never the issue, what's important are the issues the allegations raise.


Just read what an Iraqi has to say about the Mahmudiya Atrocity and then, if possible reflect on what the Troops are doing in a palca where they have long lost any gratitude.Link

Read on
Reply #14 Top
Being charged doesn't mean one is guilty. That's the part you seem to be missing. But I guess in your little mind being charged is enough reason for punishment.
Reply #15 Top
WALK SOFTLY BUT CARRY A BIG STICK.


It doesn't do any good to carry a stick if you aren't willing to use it. In that case, it becomes an accessory...like a belt or a purse.

I can assure you the US Military (at least in my personal experience) does not "prosecute" soldiers for any reason other than that they violated the UCMJ or other standing laws and policy. They certainly don't do it because "attention" is drawn to a certain incident by the press.

There are service members going to prison and being kicked out of the service ALL THE TIME for various crimes all over the world. Does that mean the US Military is full of criminals?

Hardly.

It's a vast and diverse population of people. There is inevitably going to be a criminal element in it. Name one culture that has no murder, rape, or crime period.

The US Military can no more predict who will choose to break the law than you can. When it happens, its a shame, but after INVESTIGATION if found guilty, criminals are punished. And 99% of the time it happens without media coverage.

So to imply that the military covers up and doesn't prosecute criminals unless "forced" by international outrage or media attention..is not accurate. Is not even close to truth.
Reply #16 Top
My response is based on what I have read and listened to in both Western and Middle Eastern media.

Then how can you can you say that there will be a fair trial. These 5 men stalked that girl staked out the territory where she livesd with her parents and attacked her raped her and then killed her and the family. Only her 2 younger brothers escaped because they were in school at that time and have become orphans.


The Anglo-Saxon accusatory system of justice in which a prosecutor has to prove his case to a jury of 12 of the defendent's peers is far superior to an inquisitional system where the defendent is at the mercy of one judge, especially in a country with reactionary lashback and massive corruption.


Initially the blame for the incident was sought to be put on the Insurgents and only when 3 soldiers of the 101 Air Borne were found dead with sighs of mutilation that the other soldiers began to spill the beans.


Blame wasn't "sought to be put on the insurgents". The locals in Mahmoudiya believed the people responsible were Shiite death squads, because that's the kind of thing they do. The only people aware of who was actually responsible were the perpetrators themselves. They went so far as to shoot the victims with an AKM so as to fool anyone who would do an autopsy. There was no American investigation into the rape and murders, because no one--not the Iraqis nor the Americans--believed this was done by anyone other than a Shiite death squad. It wasn't until after some soldiers visited the shrink after the horrible horrible mutilations of PFC Menchaca and PFC Tucker that the anyone found out the people behind the rape and murders in Mahmoudiya were American soldiers.

This nonsense from the Mujahideen Shura Council that their murder and desecration of our boys was revenge for Mahmoudiya is even more unbelievable. They already said immediately after the incident that they undertook the action to avenge the death of Zarqawi. The incident in Mahmoudiya didn't come to light publicly until well after the bodies of PFC Menchaca and PFC Tucker were discovered by the Task Force looking for them.

In any event thisd is a cold blooded war crime and not your everyday murder as some assume.


I'm no scholar on war crimes, but I say it's not a cold blooded war crime when one doesn't act in his capacity as a soldier. If one leaves his base without orders dressed as a civilian and engages in personal crime, how is that a war crime? If an off duty policeman gets in a barroom brawl with an average joe and beats the tar out of him, does the policeman get charged with police brutality?
Reply #17 Top
But I guess in your little mind being charged is enough reason for punishment.


If you so want you can honor those 5 brave marines especially Stg Green with the highest military medal for valor and I am sure my "little mind" will not mind. Those great heroes of the USA can get a ticker tape parade in Washington DC and a banquet at the White House with George II and Laura Bush. I think those heroes deserve the highest military decoration as they only illustrate the deparvity of the US occupation.
Reply #18 Top
There is no guilt. The Empire cannot be guilty of crimes it does not recognize. You have been convicted of thought-crime, and you are hereby sentenced to a thousand years mining coal for our new ethanol plants. What, you didnt' think they needed coal? Oh ho ho ho, we've succeded so well.
Reply #19 Top
Blame wasn't "sought to be put on the insurgents". The locals in Mahmoudiya believed the people responsible were Shiite death squads, because that's the kind of thing they do.


The original version from the US sources was thast the insurgents had done this dark deed. In fact the Resistance has been using car bombs and the like, but ususally do not target women and children. The idea being that once women and children are killed the point of no return is passed.

This nonsense from the Mujahideen Shura Council that their murder and desecration of our boys was revenge for Mahmoudiya is even more unbelievable. They already said immediately after the incident that they undertook the action to avenge the death of Zarqawi. The incident in Mahmoudiya didn't come to light publicly until well after the bodies of PFC Menchaca and PFC Tucker were discovered by the Task Force looking for them



We have not been told the truth about the kiling of the 2 101 Air Borne soldiers. But their killing is not justified as revenge for the Mahamudiya massacre



I'm no scholar on war crimes, but I say it's not a cold blooded war crime when one doesn't act in his capacity as a soldier. If one leaves his base without orders dressed as a civilian and engages in personal crime, how is that a war crime?


War crimes by definitions are crimes committed by abn invading and occupying army. It does not matter the clothes they were wearing or the time of the crime on duty or off duty. The Occupying Army is responsible for the saferty and security of the civilian population and in this the USA has failed and on top the marines are now indulging like the Mongol hordes of the past in rapine murder ans other atrocities. Please do not trivialise the crimes of the US military in Iraq.
Reply #20 Top
#17 by Bahu Virupaksha
Fri, July 14, 2006 02:16 AM


And yet again you demonstrate an assumtion of guilt along with your hatred of all things American. Unlike you, I do not assume they are either innocent or guilty. I will await the facts before making up my mind. Only an idiot draws a conclusion without knowing the facts.
Reply #21 Top

The US Department of Defence has charged these marines and if they escape without punishment it will only prove that the US is not serious about the WAr crimes of its troops. It will not prove the innocence of the troops. So that that.


It couldn't mean they are ACTUALLY innocent? That maybe they were put in as scapegoats by other marines to take the blame? Holy Shit Batman, This guy just changed the whole UCMJ justice system by making this horridly stupid comment.

I can't say I don't believe they 'Might' be guilty, but I can't also say I don't believe they 'Might' also be innocent. I, JUST LIKE YOU, AM NOT THE JUDGE/JURY!! You claiming they are guilty, DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE. Get over your self-rightous pose.
Reply #22 Top
#21 by M-Post
Fri, July 14, 2006 9:10 PM


Yer a Liberal, yer not supposed to present a rational argument.
Reply #23 Top
If this is the case then law should not recognise war crimes at all. Why then are the leaders of Liberia, Serbis, and before then the Nuremberg defendentsd tried for war crimes and crimes against humanuity. If guilt is fixed only to the lowly soldiers and not the poltical leadership that sent them tere. This was the plea of Eichmann and it did not work then in Jerusalem and will not work now. The soldiers may be guilty as hell asd you say biut what about the political leaders who took the decision to invade Iraq illegally and impose an American style Identity politics there creating sectarian and civil strife.


I'm afraid this statement confirms your ignorance of history, Bahu, or at minimum your willingness to twist it to fit your bias.

The soldiers in this incident, and any superiors who may have known of crimes and failed to report them, or actively worked to suppress evidence of them, should any such crimes actually have been committed, should be court-martialed and convicted if guilty as charged.

None of them were acting under orders to systematically annihilate millions of innocent civilians based on their race or ethnicity, or even to kill a solitary Iraqi. That you can't (or won't) see the difference between this incident and the Holocaust speaks volumes about you. The more of this melodramatic tripe you post the less I respect you.
Reply #24 Top
Only an idiot draws a conclusion without knowing the facts.


The facts are there inn the open, you are not willing to see them because it offends your self image. The US troops and soldiers are ingulging in war crime in Iraq and the people of Iraq bear wittness to thiose crime


None of them were acting under orders to systematically annihilate millions of innocent civilians based on their race or ethnicity, or even to kill a solitary Iraqi. That you can't (or won't) see the difference between this incident and the Holocaust speaks volumes about you. The more of this melodramatic tripe you post the less I respect you.


When the Nurember trials were held after world war II it established 3 criteria for deterning war crime and crime against humanity and you can check on it from any book on the Holocaust: 1.Whether non combatans especially civilians are being killed in a systematic manner. In the case of Germany intent was easy to establish because the Nazi spoke of anti Semitism as a policy. In the case of the USA it preaches Freedom and Liberty and pratices large scale destruction of the civilian population. Ypu are probaby fed in leberal doses the tripe from the embedded jouranlists who only are at best propagadists for the US occupation. Do you know how many civilians were killed when Fallujah was taken and later Karabala. So do not talk of facts, you are utterly ignorant of what the US military is doing in Iraq and intent to kill civilians can be established on the basis of the shock and awe bombing of the civilian population. 2. Dispropotionate force. The US troops in Irsq are in aaroutine manner using dispropotionate force while dealing with the Iraqis. Noq the racist point that Iraqis are non white anfd the White soldiers are racially motivated in their attack on non white Arabs can very easily be made. The only people being targetted in Iraq by the US soldiers are Arabs and a few Kurds. Is that not a targetting of a particular ethnic group. Unlike the Holocaust it is not essential to demonstrate the USA wants the complete annihilation of the Iraqi people. Idelly the USA could like what it call theatre domination but this is not Germany and the Arabs are fighting back, we call it Resistance. Third: IfS there a direct link between the American Occupation and an unfolding humanitarian cisis in Iraq. Yes there is and the increased mortality of Iraqi civilians under the Sanctions Regiome and now under American occupation is proof enough of the scale of Ameriocan killing, a man made tragedy in the same order of magnitude as other humanitarian crisis.

If you take a limited and highlyn partisan view of what is happwning in Iraq you will end up seeing the US troops only as heroesdoing what their President had described as "mission accomplished" If you are certain that USA is not ingulging in war crimes what prevents the USA from joining the International Court of Crimina Justice. This is done only to prevent the US political,leadership and its military personnel from facing trial before the world fro the crimes in Iraq.
Reply #25 Top
Accusations are not facts in the real world. That's the distinction youo fail to understand. If the facts prove that these men did commit this crime, they should and will be punished.

You don't seem to understand what a war crime is either. Had these men been ordered to do such a thing, that would be a war crime. As they acted on their own it would be a crime.