Should Americans care what Europeans think of candidates?

A tale of two continents

from JoeUser Forums

For reasons I can't quite understand, some people argue that we should take into account what Europeans think of Bush and Kerry. Why?

I think the reason is cultural lag. A seeming obsession to worry about what the "mother country" thinks of what we're doing. What's worse is that many Europeans seem to think that their opinions should matter to us. The whole thing is very selective too. It's not based on merit. It's not based on population. It's not based on economics. It's particular to Europe.

Let me give you an example: How often in these debates over Iraq have we heard about how France thinks about what we should do? Now, compare that to Japan. Japan has a larger population, a much higher GDP, and produces a lot more products and services that people use on a day to day basis. Yet France gets an incredible amount of attention. The US had Japan's support for its actions in Iraq. Japan has even sent troops there. But you rarely hear about that.

It's cultural lag. Many Europeans are unaware that individual European nations are not a major concern to most Americans. They don't go and pick presidential candidates based on what Belgium thinks any more than we're going to poll what Argentina thinks. But because Europeans believe their opinons should matter more to us than other nations, they chaffe at when someone like me points out that Americans don't care. Nor should they care. National governments are suppoed to do what is best for their own citizens. Not what's best for some minor nation state across the ocean.

It's not arrogance.  It's common sense. I wouldn't expect that someone in Belgium care what someone in Pakistan thinks of their leaders when voting. Despite the fact that Pakistan has a vastly higher population. Citizens in Belgium should only care what their leaders will do for them.  Same in France. 

BTW, do you think the French worry what we think of Chirac? Poll Americans and those who even know who he is are liekly to have a generally unfavorable opinion. But you rarely hear about Europeans worrying what Americans think. Many Europeans seem to demand that we listen to what they think of our leaders and take it to heart. But they seem to show no concern about what we think about their leaders. It's a one-way street.

We don't expect Europeans to care what we think when they vote for their leaders. Which is good because they've made it clear they don't care. Despite that, some Europeans expect us to care what they think of our leaders. And when someone points that we don't care, it's us that are called arrogant. Amazing.

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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I agree with you Brad, it is a one-way street that can be attributed to pride. I want to give you another perspective on it maybe how they think. The U.S. has great influence on the decisions other countries make as well as directly with the selection of goverment of a few countries. That might be why a lot of Europeans feel we should pay attention to what they think of our country. I try to rationalize what could cause that way of thinking. I must admit my knowledge of the actual workings of Eu is somewhat limited but from what I do know, the Union itself was modeled closely after the U.S.. It's as if they are trying to counter us or keep us in check. I agree with you on the aspect that as Americans we shouldn't care just like they don't care.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
first of all: no, generally Americans should not care what Europeans think of your candidates for the presidency of your country.

but believe it or not, you need support from European (and a few other) countries on that war on terror you are on currently. to be more specific: monetary and military support. don´t forget who paid the bills for the second Gulf War: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/facts/gulfwar/ troops from foreign countries are also needed, they are there in Afghanistan, for Iraq they would be neede as well, but only few countries are willing to contribute.

so if that war on terror is high on your agenda it might be smart to consider which administration will be more able to get that support. you wont get this kind of support from Bangla Desh for example, they only might send a few badly supplied troops that you will have to pay for.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
What about the support the U.S. provides other countries? Why do Europeans tend to not want to care what we think of your government when I think we provide the rest of the world the with more support than any other country. Let us be honest why should it be a double standard? What makes Europeans better than anyone else? or vise versa?
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Brad,

Americans are free to elect who they want. Every one else is free to have an opinion about who you elect. Go ahead and elect whoever you want but if you re-elect the current brash unilateralist, don't expect relations with the EU to improve.

"Many Europeans are unaware that individual European nations are not a major concern to most Americans"

I totally disagree. In Europe the stereotype of Americans is the exact opposite i.e. that Americans don't know or care what goes on outside the US. We are very aware of American insularity.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
We should definitely not care what Europeans think about our candidates. All nations are for their own interests, whether that be economics, world trade, world dominance or whatever. Of course, therefore, nations would want the U.S. to have the weakest president. Then they could take advantage of us in every way.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think it's always wise to be open to what your allies think and feel. That's only natural. Now if you're talking about them being able to set policy or involve themselves officially in American elections then no. But yes every free open minded nation should be receptive to what its' allies are thinking. Why not?
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
i don´t quite see the double standard you are speaking of. in Germany, where i come from, on the last election (shortly before the third Gulf War) the opposition party quite often mentioned how bad the relationships with the US became under the current government.

OFF TOPIC:
i know the US provides a lot of economic aid. the biggest donor in absolute numbers is Japan though. France provides almost as much support as the US and has a much smaller population. if you look at aid per capita or as percent of GNP the US is at the bottom of the list.
source: CIA World Factbook http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2062.html
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
The United States holds a unique position being the lone superpower. What happens in our elections directly effects Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and the rest of the world. The office of president is the single most powerful position in the world. There concern is a real one. They want a man in office that will respect international law, make peace, and not threaten the Earth with the most powerful military in history. Europeans are different from Americans. You may have the false patriotism that leads you to think "America: right or wrong," but we should care what the citizens of the world feel, believe, and say. These facts will inform my vote in November. One of the main reasons Americans supported last years invasion of Iraq was because they believed falsely that world opinion supported the action. It did not, but that misinformation was spread by our jingoistic media and convinced many of your compatriots to support a complete mistake. We should care what people outside of the vaccuum of America think, because they exposed to more of the truth than most of us.

Mine is a point of view that many Americans hold dispite your ability to recognize it.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
I totally disagree. In Europe the stereotype of Americans is the exact opposite i.e. that Americans don't know or care what goes on outside the US. We are very aware of American insularity.


I think that a lot (not all) of Europeans are trying to emphatically show opposition to the U.S. for this war in Iraq. Spain is a prime example and even though they have vowed to remove their troops lo and behold they find another bomb. It is wise to open to what your allies feel when it concerns them but just like the mouse said when it involves elections we should not care. As far as American insularity when it comes to our own elections we should be narrow-minded because it is for our interests that we should elect a candidate not for foreign interests. Maybe I am being naive but it just seems logical.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I thought it was because they believed falsely that Iraq possessed WMD.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
I guess that it depends on whether or not you want a president that is more likely to uphold good relations to the European countries. Isn't it up to each American voter to take that into account? If my country hade a president rather than a prime minister chosen by the ruling party, I would factor the presidents ability to uphold and improve diplomatic relations into the equation.

As a European I do not see that you have any obligation to consider our opinion of your presidential candidates at all. It is not our business.

I think that most of the European opinions come from two sources:
1) I think that the average European opinion of Bush is that he is less than bright, lied about the weapons of mass destruction and too eager to use military force than most Europeans find necessary. Anyone else would be a better choice.
2) The American election gets much coverage in the media over here. In Sweden we get more coverage of the American election than the elections of most other European countries. The American election is regarded as somewhat entertaining and discussed as casually as the latest sex scenes in Big Brother tv-show. Much media coverage will make people form opinions one way or the other.

On the amusing side I think that many Europeans would find this article fairly arrogant on its own.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
The problem exists when we do things like the war in Iraq and we try and get international support. Half of the President's job is to manage the nation in domestic affairs, the other half is to manage the nation's interests abroad, and honestly you need to be able to get support internationally for doing a great many things. How the rest of the world regards a president is a very important thing, because it dictates trade and military situations. The President must be a diplomat, and a diplomat who is generally disliked/disregarded by those he has to work with is automatically a very bad one. Bush is a very very bad diplomat, which helped result

But in the end, we do the same thing with other nations, we belive our opinions should matter in foreign elections. I remember a lot of rhetoric being tossed around my campus saying Chirac should be removed from office. I also remember Fox News calling the election of the liberal candidate in Spain to be a "mistake" And then there's the instance where we went in and forcefully removed another world leader because he very very strongly clashed with what we liked. (I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I am merely offering it as an example of our own attitudes)

We aren't as isolated as we like to believe. This is a global economy, a global workforce, and political boundaries are growing fuzzier and fuzzier. We have to play nice with our neighbors and allies, just like they have to play nice with us... and we can't pull a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do attitude.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
1) I think that the average European opinion of Bush is that he is less than bright, lied about the weapons of mass destruction and too eager to use military force than most Europeans find necessary. Anyone else would be a better choice.

John Kerry said Iraq had WMD's, do the Europeans think he lied also?
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
John Kerry voted for the war and then he later oppposed it after WMD's were not found but when did he "say" Iraq had WMD's? can you give me a credible source I.E. a major news article? I am seriously interested in seeing actual evidence of that.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
These are a few kerry quotes that can be found. Most of them are from speeches, and interviews.

""The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Senate Speech

“I think Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction are a threat, and that’s why I voted to hold him accountable and to make certain that we disarm him. I think we need to …” (NPR’s “All Things Considered,” 3/19/03

“Mr. Kerry … Said Iraq’s Weapons Of Mass Destruction Posed ‘A Real And Grave Threat’ To The United States.” (Dave Boyer, “Key Senators Of Both Parties Back Bush On Iraq War,” The Washington Times, 10/10/02)
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Island dog:

Can't speak for all Europeans. Europe is very heterogeneous. All assumptions involving Europeans as a group have to be very sweeping and general and most likely incorrect. :-)

That said, I think it is safe to say that 99% of all Europeans never heard of John Kerry before this election. IMO it is simply a matter of Bush having a bad reputation while Kerry has none.

I also think that we Europeans generally feel more comfortable with left-wing american poiliticians. Even though, the left-wing politicians in the US are probably far more to the right than most right-wing politicians in Europe.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was just making the point that someone pointed out that Europeans think Bush lied about WMD. I was just wondering if they think John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Madeline Albright, and all the other democrats who have said Iraq had WMD's are lying also.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's true that since the decisions of the United States do affect all other countries, that we probably should listen to what they have to say. The problem though is that Europeans think that only their opinions matter, and only when their opinions are against us (i.e. notice how Europeans have no problem lumping themselves together when they're criticizing the US even if just as many European countries support the US but when one criticizes a European country they're suddenly all different and shouldn't be lumped together). Considering how much we provide for other countries, perhaps they're the ones that should be listening to what we have to say.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks for finding some for me I hope you understand I was genuinely curious.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
US citizen shouldn't care about european opinion, they should elect who they hink is the best. On another and, US election have influence on the whole world, and every country has interest with one side or the other.

Like Jelvis said,any left wing president would be considered as relatively right wing...

What strike me with the current administration is hat there will be party all over the world if Bsh lose. Not because Kerry win..Funnily,there are a lot of powerfull people that take side from all over the world. November 2004 looks like battle for middle earth.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have to say the article hits dead on....frankly I know I'm not the only American who is getting rather tired of all the somewhat elitist mentality opinions coming out of Europe these days...as to why they dont like Bush...could it be that whether you agree with him or not...like him or not...he is gonna do what's in the best intrest of the US...not Europe...although the two generally are one in the same...but as of late...it seems the most idiotic rhetoric out of Europe comes from the western nations...the same ones who benefited from the same "evil" US's billions in aid, military support..i..e. deployment of US forces as a counter balance for the former Warsaw pact forces...and 50 years of living under the threat of nuclear destruction hust so the western nations could be free...they have forgoten the price paid for their freedom...whereas the eastern euro's have not ..seeing as their first day of freedom is still very fresh in their minds..

Probably the biggest indicator of this elitist mentality is the fact that a while back there was a story in several euro papers that stated the fact that some in Europe believe that should have a right to vote in US presidential elections citing the fact that since the US is the world's only superpower and biggest leader...they should have their say....I could almost see Chirac or Shroeder running for the presidency...

Lets not forget that when the US was trying to form a coalition for Iraq....and gather the required military numbers...France(not shocked there) and Germany played the asshole card...that caused the US to begin looking at our forces based in Europe and other places to fill in...but it seems our Nato allies nearly had a shit fit....regardless of the fact that article 5 of the Nato charter was envoked...membership in Nato must be a one way street in western Europe...go figure...

In the end the Euro's are missing the growing resurgence of isolationism here....just like prior to ww2...those favoring it are still a very small minority..but is growing ...lord knows one could combine all nato members militaries together and still be under the US military force levels...Europe need the US a hell of alot more that the other way round...
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Not really; not as far as the candidates are concerned. However when an American President comes up with such phrases as [WORLD ORDER] [GLOBAL ECONOMY] it worries some countries. They feel they have a right to express an opinion,and they do. we might do well to listen,and maybe even consider what they have to say.Ultimately we'll make our own decission anyway.....charlie poore
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
I trust Brad will read Psych's and Lee's commentary because they point out that what we do affects the globe. Brad's attitude is tantamount to saying who cares what they think in Montana or Utah, they're so sparsely populated?
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think Brad's attitude is more along the lines of: "Western Europe isn't the center of the world as they'd have you believe."
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
If America wants to be part of world politics then it needs to accept that the world will indeed have comments about it's politics. It should also care about these comment, as they give America valuable information about what others think of it's policies and the policies canditates stand for. Whether they affect your judgement however is only up to you though.

Considering the amount of articles from Americans on this site about Spain recently it's a bit funny seeing a comment of

We don't expect Europeans to care what we think when they vote for their leaders

Lots of American's did care and were quite upset with Spain. So yes Americans do care about European leaders. Likewise most europeans care enough to at least listen when americans comment on their leaders.

As for your comments on Chirac. Bad choice. Chirac cared enough and showed enough respect for American opinion to go to the states and appear on US television to help explain to Americans why he opposed war in Iraq. That's some level of respect he showed you! You just don't get it though. He cared what you though. He listened. he respected.

How about you show some in return. How about listening and caring about what others have to say. Then make up your own mind about whether to let their feelnigs influence your vote.

Paul.