Imajinit, it's below you to ride the fence. Creation would lose all its symbolism if it were merely an act of nature.

I'm not riding the fence Dan... I never claimed that creation was merely an act of nature. The point I'm trying to make is that God used the process of Evolution to do his creating. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that concept. We were created in his image, so put yourself in his shoes for a moment. If you were the alpha and the omega, an all knowing deity, and you wanted to create a universe, an existence, a planet upon which lifeforms could breathe and sustain life, how would you go about doing it? The Earth is 4.5 billion years old by some smart peoples' estimate. Everything evolved. God had a plan back then, and that plan is still in work. We may lack the brain power to understand his plan, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one. Just think, all the way back when oxygen was first getting together with hydrogen to form the first water molecules, God had a plan for each and every one of us. He knew that JoeUser was going to be created someday, and he knew that we were going to debate this topic. But let's face it, not one of us was there back then. (although some of the molecules inside us might have been) anyhoo. I'm sticking with the idea that God used the process of Evolution to carry out his creation plans. That's what I would do if i were him...
Think about it... Isn't that how multibillion dollar corporations became multibillion dollar corporations? Orville Redenbacher started out with nothing but an idea of how to make good popcorn, and look at him now... His company evolved from nothing to a billion dollar empire.

So who made 'god' ? Did someone give 'god' life too? If nothing gave 'god' life then it's also fair to say that sometimes you don't need life to give life which contradicts your position.

What wonderfully "human" thinking. To anthropomorphize God is very human indeed.

To think that the laws by which our lives are governed apply to something which has created the universe in which those laws apply is extremely narrow minded.
Why does God have to be created? Why cannot He have always "been" as the Bible states?

I'm glad I believe in a Creator God because if I believed in a "created god" he wouldn't be much of a god at all, would he?

Creation and Evolution are worlds apart and have no ability to co-exists.
Why would God implement something which completely debunked his entire plan? When the Bible clearly states that he created everything in this universe. Sun, moon, stars, day, night , LIFE, animals, birds, fish and MAN.... "and it was good."
Why would He then choose to throw evolution into the mix. Evolution by definition would change that which was, in God's eyes, perfect. The Bible says this, not I.
If you created something and you thought it was perfect, would you allow something to come in and change your original plan? Methinks not.
Don't think that I am anthropomorphizing God and boxing Him into what I believe He is. I know that He is far above and beyond my reasoning and understanding. I'm only trying to get a point across to other human minds in a way that we can comprehend.

I make the point again. If you belive in something without having first sought and found solid proof to back the claims which you make, you are nothing more than a sheep following the flock into a precipice of your own making.
If you choose to believe in something purely because it's what everyone else believes or because it is all that is taught to you then you are lost. Question everything. Study deeply the beliefs which you hold to be true.
What good does it do you to back up the claims everyone else believes if you gain nothing from them?

Search for the absolute truth and defend that instead of the fallacies fed to you...
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Mat 7:7&8

A friend of mine at the university is a professor of Astrophysics.  He says, while not specifically denying the existence of God, that before the universe there was nothing.  Since this the absolute nothingness there was no time, but for a nearly infinite "time" there was the nothing, and then, because there was the possibility of something, the universe came into being.  Or, to use his incredibly scientific terms "The universe is the collapsing wavefront of a quantum pulsation."

Cheers

Most of you know my beliefs (at least some of them) on the matter of God. While Marvin's article is somewhat lacking in real substance, I do basically agree with his point that the creation itself is the evidence of the creator. I won't expound further on that.

As to evolution, some here are speaking of macro evolution and some are speaking of micro evolution. Any serious discussion on the topic should specify which idea you are really speaking about.

Macro evolution- the idea that higher life forms evolved from lower ones. I personally find this idea ludicrous and there is no scientific evidence to support this idea. There are no transitional fossil records to support it. Genetic studies indicate that it is highly unlikely as DNA just doesn't work that way. A new species just can't spring out of an existing one. Science itself is starting to cast serious doubt on this idea.

Micro evolution- the idea that existing species adapt and change as a reaction to changes in environment. This one is easily observable. Darwin observed this and thus started this whole evolution debate. The problem was when people took an easily observable natural adpatation and carried the idea to ridiculous extremes; drawing conclusions that just weren't supported by facts. The species may change, but it doesn't become a different species. I would find it a bit odd if a being capable of creating life didn't give it the ability to adapt as needed to survive.

Both of these ideas are theories. Not proven fact. Any serious treatise on the subject will indicate this. No honest scientific writer has ever claimed that evolution was proven.

No honest theological writer should ever say that God is proven either for that matter. The existence of God seems rather obvious to me, as it is to others, but the very nature of God makes proof of His existence very difficult indeed. The evidence is there for all to see, but as with anything else it is open to human interpretation. It still boils down to Faith. Either you believe in God, or you don't and I don't think any human being can change the mind of another human being on that subject as hard as they may try.

We can present all of the "whys" we believe or do not believe, but it will not change a person's mind on the subject. The fact that these discussions always become so heated is evidence of that fact. I personally find it sad, because my personal beliefs cause me to believe that those who don't are lost and that causes me a great deal of sadness. But, I also recognize that this is their personal choice and it is not for me judge or condemn them for their beliefs.

I normally do not engage in debates on the subject for those same reasons. I find them pointless as nobody is likely to change their minds on the subject no matter what is said. I am always happy to elucidate my own beliefs and ideas, when asked, but will not debate them for the reasons stated. It does make for lively conversation though, as long as people stick to topics instead of personal attacks.

The thing I was always told about faith was that if you needed proof, you didn't have it.  I believe in a God, I don't seek to prove his existence, because it makes sense to me.  For me to Prove to you how I got to that point it would require sharing a faith journey which isn't anybody elses business.

Having said that, anyone who uses some  bizarre lines about Dinosaur bones, etc. to prove God has gone off the deep end.  God is unlikely to have left the bones around to fool us, and nobody would invent the bones to create this big of a scheme.  Also, to the line that no bones have been found larger than your bedroom, What the heck does that matter?  I mean honestly.  Some of the bones found have been over 2 meters long!  That's over 6 feet!  Aren't those big enough to realize, hey, there are some big bones out there?

 Cheers

this is a debate that will go in circles forever, which is what we all want right? There's no proof of God. Not solid. That's what's God's all about. God's about questioning ourselves, our actions and motivations. If someone found proof of God, it wouldn't be believed, it wouldn't be cherished. It would be hidden or used with ill intent. I have proof of God. Yeah. I know. I sound like a whacko. Proof is in the heart and mind. Sometimes soul.

My replies will come from talkorigins.org, because they are very comprehensive.

CREATION IS THE PROOF OF GOD. The creation around you does provide scientific proof of its Creator. The evolutionists attempt to explain a creation with no Creator. Yet, they offer only unproven theories. When offering their speculations, they suppose, hypothesize and guess.

Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution -- genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact. The theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that cause evolution. So evolution is both a fact and a theory.

The law of bio-genesis states that life can only come from life. This law also states that living things can only produce more living things. Horses don’t give birth to elephants. There are no exceptions to this rule. No fact of science stands more conclusively proved today.

Scientists don't claim that cells came into being through random processes. They are thought to have evolved from more primitive precursors. Link

Radium only exists for a set period of time. Yet, radium and other elements still exist. Therefore, scientifically we know that there was a time when there was no matter.

I don't even need to go to talkorigins here. This is just a fundamental misunderstanding of nuclear chemistry. If there were some set amount of Radium on earth that popped into existence during the creation of earth, and then started decaying, we wouldn't have any today, would we? Heck, even if you're a young earth creationist, 6000 years would have passed since Radium came into existence. How it works is that other elements decay (in the nuclear sense) and some of the resulting atoms are radioactive, because of their instability. Here's some info on the process, and on Carbon dating: Link. Oh, and I wouldn't really refute that there wasn't a time at which there was no matter - you may have heard of the Big Bang, and that matter is a form of energy (E=MC^2).

It surely takes a tremendous amount of faith to believe that the entire physical universe sprang from nothing, that life came from non-life, that intelligence came from non-intelligence, and that the intricacy we see around us is not intricate at all--but random.

Thing is, science is the religion that works. It doesn't take any faith at all to examine data and test it according to the scientific method. As for things not being intricate, but instead being random, that's not how people who understand science see the world. The universe is a fantastically intricate place, and the processes that have caused this intricacy aren't random at all. As for the rest of your post, I've taken the liberty of disregarding all nonsense and unargued for conclusions.

The philosophical aspect of this argument, which is known as the teleological argument, was put forth rather well by Paley. You've probably even heard of his watch-found-in-the-desert analogy. A very nice refutation can be found if you read your Hume, or I can rehash it here, if desired.

There's also this really cool thing that happens when Supernovas occur.  During the normal lifespan of a star, elements up to Iron are "burnt" into being.  Once Iron is reached it takes more energy to "burn" it into something else than can be gotten out of it.  Most stars explode, turn into White Dwarves and die.  The really big stars collapse.  This forces the nuclei closer and closer until it "explodes" into a supernova, spewing out all the wonderful elements "heavier" than Iron.  Since every human has some elements in them "heavier" than Iron, we are all made of Old, Big, Dead Stars.  Pretty cool.  If anyone needed proof of God, there it is.

Cheers

jetblackstar - While being made of dead stars might be cause for wonder, in what way is it cause to believe in God?

Like I said above, it was part of my own quest for God and probably unexplainable.

Cheers

The PROOF OF GOD’S EXISTENCE

Who named God? What are the names given to Him? These are vital questions that require an intelligent answer. Inasmuch as man is the one that assigns names to his fellowman, and man is a mere creation of God, it is, therefore, illogical, unbecoming, and even absurd that a mere creation would assign a name to his Creator.

So far, we have laid down some indisputable proofs of God’s existence. And one of them is His words which are written in the Bible. Aside from that, are the pronouncements and prophecies, which our Lord Jesus Christ uttered some 2000 years ago, and how they are coming to pass right now in our time, specifically, the signs of His coming. These were mentioned in Matthew 24:1 onward, when His Apostles asked Him when would the end of the world be, and what would be the signs of His coming. Our Lord Jesus told them,

“And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying; tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

In this particular verse, the disciples were asking Him of things which are yet to come, and these were still very far from their generation. In Matthew 24:4, our Lord Jesus answered, “… take heed that no man deceive you.”

You see, the statement “take heed” is tantamount to a warning to an impending danger. Apparently, there would be dangers that will befall mankind, and one of which is deceit. There will be deceivers. That was the reason why our Lord Jesus advised His disciples, especially the Apostles, and those who would come after them to “take heed” for them not to be deceive, “For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many (Matthew 24:5).”

Our Lord Jesus said that, before His coming, many false prophets and false apostles shall come, using His name. If we are going to analyze this prophecy, and we would look around us, we could already see proofs of its realization. In fact, if you would check the records of the Securities and Exchange Commission, you will find out that, there are already thousands of registered religious corporations in the country today. This only proves that how the prophecy of our Lord Jesus 2000 years ago are coming to pass now. “Many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” And you will notice that most of them bear the name of Jesus and Christ. For example, “Jesus Miracle Crusade,” “Jesus is Lord Fellowship,” “Jesus: the Name Above Every Name,” “Jesus is our Shield,” and a lot more. And this proliferation of different organizations of faith happens in the entire world. Many of them originated from Germany, United States, England, and other European countries. All of them are saying things about Christ, but in truth, they are mere deceivers.

These are some of the prophecies that our Lord Jesus told the Apostles,
“For many shall come in my name saying that I am Christ and shall deceive many.
And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye not troubled for all these things must come to pass, …”

Please, note that all these things must come to pass despite the fact that men have established organizations that aim to prevent wars. You see, the United Nations was established in the 20th century. There is also the Association of South East Asian Nations, whose ultimate goal is to promote peace and cooperation among the peoples of the world. But these attempts proved to be futile because there are still wars up to this time. Ironically, some of the members of the United Nations, who signed in a peace agreement are also the very nations who are involved in wars. Very clearly, we could see how the prophecies of our Lord Jesus are being realized.

The first is the proliferation of deceivers in the religious world, and the second is the occurrence of wars, and rumors of wars. Aside from that, there will be famines. Can you imagine how famine would take place despite the fact that, now, man has successfully intervened with nature to produce varieties of rice, or the Genetically Modified Organisms (GMO), which allowed man to harvest more. Bot how come, there are still millions of people, especially in Africa and in some third world countries, who experience hunger? If you are going to consider the vast resources of the earth, it is imaginable that people would still starve to death. Millions of people are dying of hunger, and that is a fulfillment of what Jesus Christ, our Lord, said.

The next one is pestilences. If you are going to turn back the pages of the Bible, we are being told of one nation that had experienced pestilences. God sent about ten pestilences in the land of Egypt when the Pharaoh refused to let go the people of Israel. God, in his anger, sent at least ten pestilences in the land of Egypt. But in our time, although medical science has understood the different causes of diseases that afflict mankind, despite the wonder drugs, like vaccines, that have been invented, we could still hear pestilences from different parts of the globe. Actually, some of these pestilences were already here on earth even during the time of the creation. And we must realize that whatever God had created are here to stay until the end. It is recorded in Ecclesiastes 15:1,

“I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever, nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.”

Everything that God had done shall be here forever. Nothing could be added to it, nor anything can be taken from it. That means, although stains of viruses and bacteria are being discovered just now, but they are already here from the time of the creation. It is only now that these viruses have taken toll to human existence. Why? It is because, now, the immune system of man is no longer as strong as it was before. In fact, there is a kind of pestilence now that afflicts mankind, and that is AIDS (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome). AIDS means that the immune system is made non-functional, hence, the body no longer has the ability to produce anti-bodies that produce defenses for itself. And this proves that our Lord Jesus Christ was very exact when He said that before His coming, man would experience pestilence. And this is being fulfilled in spite of the advancement that we have in Science and Technology.

Aside from pestilences is the occurrence of earthquakes of high magnitude in diverse places. These earthquakes are not like the earthquakes before because these would be stronger and they would affect the entire world. As written in Luke 21:11,
“And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.”

See? There shall be great earthquakes in diverse places. There shall be famines, pestilences, and there shall be fearful sights from heaven. We are waiting for the complete fulfillment of all these, but parts of this prophecy are already being realized now – famines, pestilences, and earthquakes of great intensity. You see, earthquakes occur more frequently now than it did 50 years ago. Based on statistics, one major earthquake occurs in every ten years before 1931. But after 1931, there occurred ten major earthquakes every year. Did you see the ratio? Meaning, the number of earthquakes that the world experiences has increased. And that is a fulfillment of the prophecies of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those prophecies are of divine origin. They happen as exactly as the Lord Jesus had prophesied them. Mere human beings, even the most notable psychics like Nostradamus, cannot foresee the things which are yet to come as precisely and as exactly as our Lord Jesus did. No matter how famous Nostradamus had been, the fact remains that many of his predictions were false. He made a lot of miscalculations. For example, he once predicted that there would be a world war in 1993. But it did not come to pass. And if you are going to compare his prophecies from the prophecies of our Lord Jesus Christ, we could attest that the words of God in the Bible are 100% accurate than the pronouncements of a man. And as we witness how His words come to pass, we can conclude that they came from as Authority who knows even the future, and that is none other than our Almighty God. He has spoken the truths before they come to pass. He had revealed to us in detail, thousands of years ago, the things that will happen in the future. That is the God of the Scriptures.

We do not care about the other gods that other people believe in. We do not care how other people serve their gods. What we believe in is the God of the Scriptures. And that God is the God that we are introducing to our fellowmen. He is our Creator. We believe that the majority of mankind believes in God. Although we are not discounting the fact that there are also atheists, or the non-believers of God, but they comprise only a very small fraction of the population.

Now, we are trying to introduce the God in the Bible to others. Who is this God? He really exists, there is no doubt about that. We have cited several evidences that prove His existence. He created everything. But there are other matters that we have to know about Him. If there is a God, how many are they? That is a very vital question because there are religions who believe in the plurality of God. They believe in many gods. Egypt, for instance, has many gods. The Hindus likewise believe in many gods. The ancient or primitive religions in this country believe in the plurality of god. They believe in so many gods, but if you are going to consider the God of the Bible, how many are they? Is He alone? Are they two, or three, or more? What is His name? What is the relevance of His name to His person? And if there really is a God, where is He? Is He everywhere?

These are vital questions that we need to consider if we want to know the truth. According to some so-called Christians, God is everywhere. Actually, translations of the Bible have been influenced by the belief that God is everywhere, although that is not in the original manuscripts that were used in writing the word of God. There are now translations of the Scriptures that tell us that God is everywhere. And this is very misleading because if we are to go back to the prayer that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught, “Our Father which art in heaven.”

According to Jesus Christ, there is really a Father, and He is in heaven. He is not everywhere. In fact, when our Lord Jesus Christ prayed to the Father, He even looked up in the heavens. Where is God? Aside from that, Is He alone? Is Jesus Christ a man or a God? You see, there is a religious organization which believes that Jesus Christ is a man. They do not believe in Christ’s divinity. And if there is a God, what is the Holy Spirit? Is He also a God? If there is a God, how must we serve Him? Does He want anything from us? Or, do we need anything from Him? What are the commandments of God? Is it the Ten Commandments?

We will try to answer those questions, thru the help of God, next time. #

The God of the Scriptures:
WHO IS GOD?


We are especially addressing those who are not certain yet whether the God they invoke and pray to is, indeed, the God in the Bible. This is your chance to find out if the God that you are serving is the God which the Bible introduces.

Many existing religious denominations today call their Gods by different names. Some call the Father, “Jehovah,” while the others call Him “Allah”. There are also groups that call Him Jesus, who is the embodiment of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We have mentioned last time that, in the Bible, the name of a person may either explain an incident in his past, like the names Moses and Isaac, or it may describe his physical appearance, like the name Esau. But this time, let us focus on the name of the God in the Bible. What is His name? Who named Him? Hopefully, this discussion will give everybody a good chance to study and learn about the name of God.

Undoubtedly, God has His name. And as our Almighty God, He is introducing to us, thru the Bible, His names. As we all know, human beings, as well as the other creatures, have names. People have given them names. In fact, it was Adam who named the animals and the fowls brought to him by God after His creation in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:19 says,
“And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”

In other words, from that time on, whatsoever Adam called every living creature became its name. Meaning, it was a man who named every living creature on earth. And it is also a practice today that man gives names to places and to his fellowman.

Sometimes, names are based on incidents or events. Jacob, for instance, named a famous place in the Bible when he slept and dreamt of a stairway going up to heaven. When he woke up, he gave a name to that place. That was written in Genesis 28:19,
“And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.”

There was a city that was called Luz. But after what Jacob experienced, he changed its name to Bethel. And Bethel is a famous city in our time. What I am trying to say is, it is man who names places. Man also names things, events, and other creations. Now, if you are going to biblically study names, God also names. You see, the stars in heaven were named by God. Psalms 147:4 says,
“He telleth number of the stars; He calleth them all by their names.”

That is amazing! According to scientists, a galaxy may contain billions of stars, and there are billions of galaxies in the universe. And the Bible tells us that God tells the number of the stars, although it is impossible for humans to count the stars in all the galaxies that exist now.

With regard to God’s name, we may possible be asking who gave Him a name. There are religious leaders who have given God a name, which to say the very least, is very unbecoming. A creature to give a name to the Creator? That is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the other Bible translators have done. They have given God a name, and they make other people believe and accept the names that they have invented. But, biblically speaking, who can possibly name God? Isaiah 63:16 says,
“Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our Father, our Redeemer; Thy name is from everlasting.”

God has His name from everlasting. Therefore, we must not presume that any human being has the right to give God a name because His name is from everlasting. And who could possibly give God a name? Of course, there has been no other being who had existed from everlasting, except God. Therefore, it is but right for God to give a name to Himself. In fact, He had declared to Moses His everlasting name in Exodus 3:14,
“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, the Lord of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is My name forever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.”

His name is from everlasting, and it will endure until forever. Therefore, biblically speaking, God has a name. And that name is everlasting – from eternity to eternity. Now, the question is, What is His name? Do we have any idea? You see, the Bible gives us of so many names by which God is called. He taught His name to His servants even during the time of the patriarchs and the Israelites. In fact, in the Bible, God is called is different names. Let us try to go over the possible names that could be used in addressing the God of the Bible. Others may find them absurd or illogical, but they are biblical nonetheless.

One of the intriguing names of God is in Exodus 34:14,
“For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.”

See? “Jealous” is a name of God. The name “Jealous” is an awesome, respectable name that is being attributed to the Almighty God. It was emphatically written, “The Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.”

Another is in Deuteronomy 28:58. It says,
“If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD.”

THE LORD THY GOD is another name. If you will remember, this was a name which was introduced to the Israelites. And this is a name that was meant for the Israelites because the Lord here is the God of Israel. You will see that this is a definite name because it is introduced by an article – THE LORD THY GOD. It is the name that was introduced to the Israelites.

Another of God’s name is written in Jeremiah 33:2,
“Thus saith the Lord the maker thereof, the LORD that formed it, to establish it; the LORD is His name.”

Therefore, it is emphatic in the Scriptures that the Creator of the heavens and the earth is called the LORD. Another name is recorded in Amos 4:13,
“For lo, He that formeth the mountains, and created the winds, and declared unto man what is His though, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The Lord, the God of Hosts, is His name.”

Other names are being introduced to us in this verse – the LORD and GOD OF HOSTS. Therefore, “God of Hosts” is considered as a name of God. It could be used to address or to introduce the Almighty God of the Bible. Amos 9:6, on the other hand, tells us more.
“It is He that buildeth His stories in the heaven, and had founded His troop in the earth; He that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them upon the face of the earth: The Lord is His name.”

From the verses that we have cited, we have so far established that, in the Bible, God is called “The Lord,” “The Lord thy God,” “God of Hosts,” “Jealous God,” and “Jealous”.

“Holy” is another name mentioned in Isaiah 57:15,
“For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.”

In that verse, He was called “Holy”. Perhaps, other people will interpret it as a quality of the name. But the word “Holy” is His name. It defines His character. Remember, the Bible sometimes uses a name to define the character of a person. As we have mentioned in our previous discussion that name of a person is sometimes in accordance with his characteristics, physical appearance, or with the events that had happened in his life. That was how the names of Esau, Isaac, and Moses came about.

There is still another one in Psalms 111:9, which says,
“He sent redemption unto His people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: Holy and Reverend id His name.”

That particular verse describes the name of God. “Holy and Reverend id His name.” Apparently, those pastors who call themselves “reverend” think that they are equal with God. But in many occasions, they make themselves even higher and greater than God. You will notice that the word “Reverend” was just used once in the Bible. There are no other verses that use the word “reverend”. It is only in Psalms 111:9. And it had been used to describe the name of God. But nowadays, so many pastors, ministers, priests and other religious leaders call themselves as “Most Reverend” or “Most Holy”, while the name of God was simply described as “reverend” and “holy”. They are introducing themselves even higher that God because they have presented the adjectives “reverend” and “holy” in the superlative degree, thus, making it “most reverend” and “most holy”. See how the priests and the pastors have become very ambitious? We strongly detest this kind of a practice because, in the Bible, only the name of God had been described as “holy” and “reverend”. The Apostles and the prophets, in the greatness, did not dare use the descriptive word “reverend” for themselves. But here come these priests and pastors, who know only three or four verses of the Bible, giving their selves titles such as “Most Holy” and “Most Reverend”. The Pope in Rome, for example, is being addressed as “Most Holy Father,” while the Father in heaven is simply called “Father”. That is tantamount to blasphemy. Introducing one’s self to be greater than God is a great blasphemy to God. But there are really people who do that. II Thessalonians 2:4 says,
“Who opposed and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

They are introducing themselves as God. And sometimes, they even introduce themselves greater than the God in the Bible.

Going back to our topic, you see, God is called in so many names. The names attributed to Him fit His character, His person, and His power. But of all these names, there is one that used by His people to address Him. And this name is the origin of all the names that He possessed. Isaiah 63:16 says,
“Doubtless thou art our Father, thou Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: Thou, O LORD, art our Father, our redeemer; Thy name is from everlasting.”

According to the Scriptures, “Father” is His name from everlasting. In fact, Proverbs 30:4 says,
“Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if thou canst tell?”

It speaks of that person known in the Bible as God. No human being had ascended up nor descended from heaven. No man had gathered wind in his fist. No human being could ever do those things. Even angels cannot do these. The verse also said, “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if thou canst tell?” The King James Version says, “Thou art out Father, our redeemer, Thy name is from everlasting.” But there is another translation which says, “Thou art our Father, our redeemer, from everlasting is Thy name.” “Father” is His name from everlasting.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses are claiming that the word “Father” is not the name of God inasmuch as it is a common noun, and so, He must still have a proper name. Apparently, these witnesses are false witnesses. The witnesses to be believed in are those who had been elected by God from the beginning of the history of man’s service to God. There are witnesses whom we should believe; there are witnesses whom we can rely on. That is in Isaiah 43:10,
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

The Lord said, “Ye are my witness.” There are real witnesses. But he Jehovah’s Witnesses are false witnesses because they are standing as witnesses to a name that is not the real name of God, and that is “Jehovah”. They are banking on the translations of the Scriptures that use the name “Jehovah”. And despite the fact that they know the truth behind the name “Jehovah,” they still fool a lot of people by making them believe a name, which is not God’s real name.

The American Standard Version of the Scriptures renders a rightful translation of the name of God. It says, “Doubtless thou art our father, our redeemer; from everlasting in thy name.” That means, “Father” is His name from everlasting.

You see, the word “Father” is a name to be respected and worshipped. When our Lord Jesus Christ, in the first century, taught his disciples and apostles how to pray. He told them, “Pray unto this manner. Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name …” See? In that verse, the word “Father” has been capitalized. Although the Jehovah’s Witnesses say that the word “father” is a common noun, what they did not know is that they are questioning the wisdom of the translator, or the writers, of the Scriptures. If you understand elementary grammar, will you capitalize a common noun? Grammatically speaking, you do not capitalize common nouns. And since “Father” had been capitalized, it implies that it had been used as a proper name because it refers to the Creator of the heavens and the earth. And according to our Lord Jesus Christ, it is a name that we must worship. His name is an object of worship. “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name …” What name? “Father”. The word “Father” had been used as a personal name of God. According to Isaiah 63:16, that name of God is from everlasting. That is why the Bible prohibits us from calling anyone on earth, “Father”. Matthew 23:9 says, ”And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

Notice how the second “Father” in the verse has been capitalized. In the admonition, "call no man your father,” the word “father” begins with a small “f”. While the portion, “for one is your Father, which is in heaven,” the word “Father” begins with a capital “F” because it is now being used as a proper name for the God in heaven. And Christians are prohibited from calling anyone in the religious world, “Father”. But the Catholics violate Christ’s admonition. The Catholic priests do not teach this verse to their members, in fact, they let their members call them “Father”. Sometimes, they are called “Reverend Father” or “Most Reverend Father”. You can just imagine, the Father in heaven is simply called “Father” while the leaders of the Catholic Church are being called “Most Holy Father” and “Most Reverend Father”. The Catholics seem to be unmindful of matters concerning holiness. What Matthew 23:9 said was clear, “Call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

Therefore, the word “Father” is being used in the Bible as a proper name, referring to the Father in heaven, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. That is the greatest of all His names in the Bible because that name is from everlasting. Even before He created the heavens and the earth, He is already called “Father”.

Marvin, I do agree with the point that you have attempted to make. There is a God, and he is the creator.

I just wanted to make the comment that the theory of evolution cannot coexist with the theory of God or of a creator.

I haven't read all the posts here. I haven't, because it is the same spew that has been coming from the religious right pracitcally since Darwin said the word evolution. First, let me point out that scientifically speaking, a theoy is not the same as a theory in general coloquial language. A hypothosis is more in line with the coloquial meaning of theory. A theory is a hypothosis that has a body of supporting evidence, but cannot be as conclusively proved as a scientific law, such as the law of gravity. There have been studies done where has been found that about 95% of the public is not scientifically literate. The religious right and others like them use this fact to trick people into admonishing science, but really, it just shows thier ignorance.

On to the 'liberal elite'. Yay for conservative catch phrases! If you parroted the party line any more, I'd have to ask you to move to the jungle and start living in the trees. Just because someone takes the time to think and question reality does not make them wrong. That is the mindset that led to most of the atrocities commited against the inteligent minds throughout history. If they don't agree with accepted 'wisdom', admonish them, throw them in jail, or burn them as heretics. Please, go back to the middle ages with your foolishness and bigotry.

On to evolution propper. If you want proof of evolution, take a look at disease. If there was no evolution, we would have the same exact diseases that existed in the middle ages. However, viruses and bacteria mutate and evolve. Why do you think there is a different flu vaccine every year? The evolutionary trend of pathogens is to be more resilient and resistant to medicines that exist. The strains that are not resistant die out and are replaced by the mutated versions that are. That is the very essance of evolution.

The fact is that creationists are no different then the world-is-flat-ists or earth-centric universe-ists of the past. Give it time, and your lack of intelect and grasp of simple principles will disappear into the bowels of history too.

Reply to O.G.San
It is true that Christians once believed the world was flat until Sir Isaac Newton proved otherwise. The irony of that is: Sir Isaac Newton was also a devout Christian who got his inspiration from a verse in Isaiah chapter 40: "it is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth". Although he was ridiculed by his peers Sir Isaac Newton stood upon his faith in God's Word. Another interesting fact I would like to throw out here is: In geology there is what is called the "Biological Big Bang" where there is a sudden explosion of all types of live appearing together in the same period. But according to evolution life gradually evolved from one species to another. If that is true then why does it not show in the geological record. Another problem with evolution in light of DNA science is that evolution claims species evolve by mutating. But in DNA whenever a mutation occurs in 99.99% of the time it is a subtraction or negative resulting in deformity or handicap if you will - hardly a means of survival but rather of extinction.

Reply to SiRMetMan
Mutations of the sort you are talking about are adaptations which occur only within a specific species. For example, people who live in a hot climate have thinner blood than those living in cold climates that regulates body temperature. When a person moves form the hot climate to the cold climate the blood gradually thickens to adapt to the climate - hardly a case of evolving into a higher species. The problem with evolution is that it assumes species mutant from one to another eg fish to amphibian to reptile etc. However in DNA whenever a mutation occurs it is 99.99% a negative or subtraction resulting in deformity which is hardly a means of survival but rather of extinction if nothing else. And I should remind you as I did my friend O.G. San that it was Sir Isaac Newton who discouvered the law of gravity thus proving the world was not flat amongst the ridicule and opposition of his day. Sir Isaac Newton was a devout Christian and claimed he got his inspiration from a verse in Isaiah chapter 40: "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth". Another fact to bear in mind is in geology there is what is called the "Biological Big Bang" where there is a sudden explosion of all types of life appearing together in the same period. But evolution claims life evolved gradually. If that is true then why does it not show up in the geological record? And yet another interesting Biblical fact: God instructed the Israelites to perform many rituals concerning methods of cooking and diet that are still practiced today as tradition with things being made kosher. So what is the point? Those ancient rituals are the equivalent to modern day Food Safe practices requiring advanced knowledge of micro-biology. The people had no understanding but simple faith and trust in their God. That is why when the black plague was raging in Europe the Jewish population was hardly affected because they were practicing the sanitary measures that God told them to do.

My advice to imaginet and some of the rest of you is to think for yourselves instead of being intimidated by the liberal elite. If the evolutionists were right, the world would be entirely different than it is today. As you look at life on earth, it all runs down or degenerates. Life does not improve genetically--it becomes weaker, diseased, flawed, deformed, etc. In other words, life over thousand of years has become more imperfect. It has not become improved at all. Man has not evolved into a more intelligent being, he has become more savage in his nature and physical attributes. Get some books on the subject written by honest people, not those speculative idiots who have closed minds

We have become more imperfect, have not improvrd at all? Man was better off when he couldn't build fires and ran around with sharp pointed objects? How exactly are we not more intellegent, but more savage? If God created man in His Own Image, why do fossils not look as we do now at all? Maybe because we evolved from those earlier forms?

Some guy up in the clouds with a long beard and a white robe created the universe...and it was good? BAH! I don't know if he's there or not. But this thread is getting a tad rediculous!

And who created God? You've reduced it all to the ridiculous chicken and egg debate.
I'm a theist, but I think you simply highlight the problem with Western concepts such as linear time and modernist logic.
My belief: The universe always existed. This doesn't make sense in our language, (although some parts of the Bible back it up, while other parts refute it) but that's because we are mere humans, incapable of fully understanding the complexities of the metaphysical universe.

"How can you say that evolution is easy to disprove?"

It's easy to come up with counterarguments, and there are scientists who point to the holes in the theory. I think both theories are simplistic and should take on a little of the knowledge of each other. Including all the creation theories.

"KARMAGIRL........Evolution is as false as the philosophy of liberalism. Every bone ever found, supposedly proving evolution, could be stored in your bedroom. It is the biggest lie the left has ever foistered on the human race."

When in doubt, blame the Left. Ignore the fact that evolution has been used for some of the worst racism against blacks ever seen. Ignore the fact that it's the Right who are often referred to as Social Darwinists.

"And, why do people have to believe that it is one or the other? Why is it either "God" or "evolution". If you believe in God, it seems like it would make sense that "God" is always making improvements. "

Wow, step outside politics and I agree with KG!

"Why would God implement something which completely debunked his entire plan? When the Bible clearly states that he created everything in this universe. Sun, moon, stars, day, night , LIFE, animals, birds, fish and MAN.... "and it was good.""

And now you are falling into the trap of assuming the word God means Jehovah. The original blog only did enough to argue for the existence of a god. The Bible says it was good, nothing to do with perfect anyway. And there are plenty of people who believe in the Bible who don't believe in the Adam and Eve story or the 7 days story.

MasonM, you speak very powerfully.

"It doesn't take any faith at all to examine data and test it according to the scientific method."

This is quite frankly untrue. The popularity of current scientific thought (known by many as "the modernist project") is due to philosopher/scientist Rene DesCartes, as you would well know Daniel. The most convincing part of Descartes' Meditations were that the world does not exist. Many philosophers have found that it is near-impossible to disprove. As such, you must firstly take a leap of faith that the world exists. Science then takes many many leaps of faith about how it believes the world to work. For the most part, the assumptions are convincing assumptions. But they still require faith in scientific logic. No doubt Daniel you make the same ridiculous demand that the immaterial world prove its existence using material laws.

God is simply a very human creation aimed to give life some semblance of meaning. Life has no meaning, everything you see around occurred simply because it did, and almost wholly by accident. God was also created to give certain creeds and races a reason to eliminate other creeds and races. God is also used a tool to enforce morals via fear.

The concept of God/Creator has only really existed for a few thousand years, previously people thought that everything has always existed as they had no reason to think otherwise.

The whole concept of God is so ridiculous I cannot understand how any reasonably intelligent person can even consider it for a microsecond. An immense, all-seeing being who manufactured the universe and rewards the way we live our lives with eternal salvation or damnation. Could their be a more terrible concept than eternal life? Is that supposed to be a reward? You did not exist before your brain developed sufficiently to make you aware of your existence, and you will cease to exist the moment you brain is sufficiently starved of oxygen to cause death. Your "existence" is nothing more that an illusion created by the physical processes that occur within your body. Do not make the mistake that your existence is important enough to warrant continuation after your physical form has ceased to function, because it isn't. When you switch off your PC does the "spirit" of that Word Document you've just typed fly off to microsoft nirvana?

If you believe in God should you not also (for consistencies sake) give equal credence to witchcraft, ESP, UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster?

The pro-God people in this debate display ever nuance of condescending self-righteousness that is almost universal amongst their ilk, which is utterly unsurprising, as they dismiss the reasoned arguments other people post forwards as poppycock without feeling the need to even explain themselves, or by taking quotations from a book and presenting it as proof. Ludicrous.

The western mind is caught on the idea that everything must be created. The eastern attitude is far more circular. Things come and go out of existence. No beginning or end.
There is therefore no need for a creation or an end. First of all although we think this universe had a beginning in the big-bang, there is no scientific evidence to say we don't live in a muti-verse. So when this universe ends we merely go into another one. It should be remembered that relativity only applies to objects that have mass. Since Mind has no mass, it can go anywhere at anytime. Why is re-incarnation so difficult to accept. Do you think our bodies are all that we are. In terms of raw computation power, supercomputers can already perform calulations that would take the brain 100s of years to work out. This does not make computers superior to us, just different. Since computing power is doubling every 2 years it is only a matter of time when computers will exceed the brain's capacity. What will creationist say then? It is already a fact that computers can beat 99.99% people in chess. Please check out my website for more info :http://www.ingenuitygap.co.uk

So there was an accident that made the universe, and oh surprise there was a sun, and oh surprise there was the earth, and oh surprise earth is at the exact distance from the sun that permits the existence of life, and oh surprise... -gee i could go on like that forver!

I dont think we were here by accident. God created us, why how or when is a mystery. And until he reveals it to us it shall remain a mystery.

When you see a building you know that there was a builder. Why is it that when you look around you cant believe there was a creator?

It is so obvious to me i dont need proofs.

It's not so much an accident really, as a set of circumstances that would create life as we know it.  After all how many worlds have you personally seen where the proper circumstances did not occur?

 

Cheers

It is not an accident at all, just look at the probability: With trillions of stars in the universe, there HAS to be a star (the Sun) with a planet (Earth) close enough to it to support life!