IMMIGRATION AND ITS DISCONTENTS

"The only way to stop the illegal hiring of foreign workers is to price foreign labour out of the market by increasing the minimum wage so that Americans are encouraged to go in for jobs that just do not pay well enough."

There's a problem with that. Do you think employers that pay illegal workers off the books worry about minumum wage? lemme tell ya, you could raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour, but the average American would still refuse to be out there picking vegetables in the 110 degree sun.

If you want to raise wageson menial jobs, get rid of all the low-end workers sneaking across the border. Then there will be no one to work them. Employers will be forced to woo Americans. They'll have to worry about paying a decent wage, benefits, and work safety. As long as we allow illegals to sneak across the border and work for wages and in conditions no American would, employers don't have to offer any incentives to work for them.

In fact I agree with you. I was running an economic argument in place of the highly charged "we are a nation of immiogrants" sort of emotional tug at the heart strings. I would only say that increse in minimum wage must precede rather than follow the reform in the immigration law. Yes I think it is unfair that some employers depend on cheap labour from across the borders and they must be made to conform. Bush wants to enforce a solution that will make tghe problem worse.

The difference in our perspectives is you see it top down, and I see it from a free market perspective. If you stop illegal immigration, you won't have to raise the minimum wage, employers will have to pay more in order to fill the jobs.

Raising the minimum wage BEFORE the illegal hole is plugged just offers MORE incentive for employers to hire from the pool of illegal workers. In fact your model would only work in the opposite; the only way to get illegals competing with legals would be to LOWER the minimum wage so that employers would have LESS incentive to hire illegals.

the only way to get illegals competing with legals would be to LOWER the minimum wage so that employers would have LESS incentive to hire illegals.

Sociologists are concerned about rising inequality in the US. Lowering the minimum wage inorder to stimulate a competitiion between Americans and migrant workers will increase an already potent problem. It is unfair that the illegal immigrants are taking more than what they give interms of taxes etc. Rducation and health care expenses need to be shared by the very industries that gain by the illegal immigration and then do not want to pick up the tab.

It is unfair that the illegal immigrants are taking more than what they give interms of taxes etc.

That's why they need to have an opportunity to be legitimized so they can have standing to pay taxes and contribute to this country that they are living and working in. I'm not talking about amnesty or a free pass for breaking the rules, I think there should be a fine paid.

I'm not suggesting that the minimum wage be lowered, Bahu, but that's the only way you'd ever get the legitimate American workforce in competition with the illegal workforce. Raising the minimum wage only makes employers MORE apt to resort to illegal labor. The key is for there to be no illegal labor at all, or make them so afraid of using it they won't.

"That's why they need to have an opportunity to be legitimized so they can have standing to pay taxes and contribute to this country that they are living and working in. I'm not talking about amnesty or a free pass for breaking the rules, I think there should be a fine paid.

Fines don't cut it. Even with a fine, an invitation to citizenship is a reward for breaking and dodging the law. Most of these people won't want citizenship anyway. Then they'd have to pay taxes, etc. The fallacy here is that people think these workers WANT to be legit. Of course they don't.

Illegal immigration is more than a legal problem. In fact thje crime rate amongst the illegal immigrants is higher than the national average. I personally feel that giving amnesty is only a surrender to illegality.

Ome more point. How about organized "contract labour". Bring tham accross the border make them finish the job and ship them right back. In contract labour market is opened up then the problem of illegal immigration can be stemmed.

Most of these people won't want citizenship anyway. Then they'd have to pay taxes, etc. The fallacy here is that people think these workers WANT to be legit. Of course they don't.

first of all, a great many illegal workers have taxes deducted from their wages, with the exception being day laborers. whether those monies collected by their employers are actually transferred to the government is another story entirely. those who are working for honest employers but using bogus id aren't likely to file tax returns so unlike most citizens, they actually 'contribute' 100% of their withholdings. same for state income taxes. they--like any renters--pay their actual share of property taxes plus. as in plus whatever percentage their landlord builds into the rent.

whether or not they want to become citizens has very little to do with taxes. if some could earn even a modest living in their home countries, they'd never leave home. if there was nothing to keep them from easily traversing the border in both directions, i suspect we'd see a flashflood of weekend crossborder commuting on a scale that would make the old highway 21 phenomenon a mere trickle by comparison.

I find that hard to believe, kingbee. Do you have any stats to that effect? Not doubting you, just looking for reference material. I figure if they file with bogus IDs they probably declare 12 dependants and get next-to-nothing taken out at all. I wonder what percentage of illegals actally pull a real check, and not work totally off the books.

We had route 23 here, and I understand where you are coming from, but mexico has an unemployment rate of 3.2 percent, and an underemployment rate of 25%+. The middle class jobs don't seem to exist. A reality, sure, but what are we going to do about it? Eastern Kentucky still lags behind the rest of Appalachia, and when someone wants to move industry in they just abuse them until they change their minds.

Mexico must think this is a great thing, because if these people went home their unemployment rate would skyrocket. As long as people are allowed to wander off as you point out, the problems can just fester with a bareable amount of pain. When they don't leave, people starve and then those in power have to right the wrongs responsible. They're just exporting their responsibility.

Do you have any stats to that effect?

i've worked with a number of businesses employing from 10-15 to 100+ workers. all privately owned manufacturing or distributing concerns.  at least 25% of all the production or warehouse workers are illegal with fake ids, some of whom i've come to know by several different names.  all contract to have their payroll processing done by companies such as adp so all workers are  definitely having money withheld.  it may be different elsewhere in the country; the first of these three repors most closely reminds me of what i've seen, discovered or been informed.  link or link and link

The middle class jobs don't seem to exist. A reality, sure, but what are we going to do about it? Eastern Kentucky still lags behind the rest of Appalachia, and when someone wants to move industry in they just abuse them until they change their minds.

before gas prices began going up last summer,  a number of auto makers were planning to upgrade existing production plants or  building much larger new ones. according to what i was reading, mexico was poised to become the new detroit.  mexico was also becoming the largest new car market in the hemisphere. i havent seen or heard much about it tho since just after katrina hit.

the frontera's maquiadores have barely benefited anyone but their parent corporations (in the form of less expensive components--a savings never passed along to consumers).   

nafta and subsidized magna-agri (it's nothing short of shameful archer midland daniels et al are still collecting money for nothing and price protection for free) have been kicking mexico's ass for a while now.  last summer, prices for produce dropped to the point where mexican farmers didn't lose as much by letting their crops rot in the fields as they did taking them to market. 

As long as people are allowed to wander off as you point out, the problems can just fester with a bareable amount of pain. When they don't leave, people starve and then those in power have to right the wrongs responsible. They're just exporting their responsibility

mexico and the central american countries were not-so-subtle slave economies until fairly recently   far too often, the elites of each of these nations were encouraged and supported by american businesses which were protected by the american military whenever things got outta hand.  the wealthy and powerful there are playing both ends against the middle cuz it's worked so well for so long.  

Increasing wages for the low skilled workers or what the Japanese call, three D workers, (those working in dirty, dangerous, and demeaning jobs) would create, what Michael Piore calls, structural inflation. This means when the wages are increased for the low skilled workers, it will have a cascading impact resulting in increase in wages across the job spectrum. This is not going to be liked by a business man as it would entail increase in wage cost and therefore cut into the profits. One solution, Singapore has found to moderate the flow of foreign workers is introduction of a levy system where the employer has to pay levy to the Government for each foreign worker hired, the level of levy being fixed based on the demand situation. If the demand is high, then the levy is lowered and when demand slackens, the levy is raised. This will moderate the flow and also protect the wages of the local workers.

One solution, Singapore has found to moderate the flow of foreign workers is introduction of a levy system where the employer has to pay levy to the Government for each foreign worker hired, the level of levy being fixed based on the demand situation. If the demand is high, then the levy is lowered and when demand slackens, the levy is raised. This will moderate the flow and also protect the wages of the local workers.

While this is apartial solution, yet it leaves the fate of the 11 million illegal immigrants already is the USA undecided. Bush and the Bushmen want to opt for a half way solution: legsalise those already in the USA and strengthen border patrol to prevent more such crossings.