Allah or Jesus?

Heh.

I'll dare to post something.

What, though?

This anecdote is food for thought, sure enough.

One of the things I'm thinking is, "why hasn't anybody jumped in with arguments about how Christians run around preaching--and perpetrating--violence and murder?"

And I'm also thinking, "why hasn't anybody jumped in with arguments about how one Imam does not a consensus make?"

And of course I'm thinking, "damn, that was some good chili!"

And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven

KFC, don’t you think we can afford a bit more breathing space from our Holy Scriptures than this? There’s a lot more to the Qur’an than you are portraying, and there are many, many verses that teach a message of compassion, forgiveness and a direct command not to cause harm to non-believers. (Surah 2.109; 7.199; 39.53; 42.43, for example).

If we run through our Holy Scriptures with a fine tooth comb, we’ll find moral contradictions in all our Holy Books – the Bible included. We’ll also perpetuate feelings of friction, intolerance and misunderstanding between people of faith.

Unfortunately, as long as we don’t allow ourselves any breathing space from scriptural fundamentalism, we’d have to conclude that the Christian God is a lot worse than Hitler, morally speaking. Not only are we taught that all non-Christians will perish in hellfire forever, for not accepting Jesus as Lord, but we are also taught that God chooses who becomes a Christian and who doesn’t. It’s not our choice to become a Christian in the first place – it’s God’s - according to St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians.

(I personally agree that we have no choice in the matter, incidentally. If you speak to most non-Christians over the age of about 30, they’ll tell you that Christianity simply isn’t their cup of tea. They’re not that way inclined, and are often a lot happier adhering to a secular point of view, or to a Buddhist one, or whatever else. Yet the belief that all non-Christians will be punished in hellfire is wholly misguided, in my view. Furthermore, it’s no secret that the religion we feel inclined to follow primarily depends on where we’re born.)

Regarding the Hitler comparison, it is true that Hitler took a certain type of people, and threw them into the ovens to face torture and death. This is exactly how the Christian God acts, according to extreme scriptural fundamentalism. The difference is that God throws a certain type of people into the ovens to experience torture and pain in hellfire for ever and ever – world without end. Is this the kind of God that we have come to know and love in our hearts?

Extreme scriptural fundamentalism suppresses the spirit of love and understanding, in my view, and I think it's time we grew out of it.

I usually take those inbox-stuffing forwards with a grain of salt, but----

Let's remember the Crusades; the Pope DID encourage Christians at the time to murder Muslims. But then, that was a much different world.

And I'm also thinking, "why hasn't anybody jumped in with arguments about how one Imam does not a consensus make?"

---stutefish

One Imam may not a consensus make, but the nightly news sure does seem to indicate that such a consensus is there to be had. in case you've missed it, lots of----too many---Muslim "clerics" are calling for violent death to Christians and Jews, and have been for years. According to Mohammed, they're supposed to kill you if you won't convert.

I'll take Jesus. His way takes a little less work.

The Bible is centuries older than the Koran, thus proving its' superiority.

KFC, I find many problems with this article and your analysis. First off, what type of Muslim was this? Sunni, Shia, or Sufi? Shias, a minority of Muslims, have their Imam, an infallible spiritual leader, who is believed to have supernatural powers, and is divine. From the way Imam is capitalized, I believe the author was referring to a Shia Imam. Which is highly unlikely, because I believe the only Imam in existence is the Imam in Iran, and he hates the rest of the world and would not teach any infidels. Sunni muslims are the majority of Muslims, and their imams are spiritual leaders who are not infallible, so just because the author POSSIBLY had this conversation and made on imam hang his head, does not mean anything.And it most likely wasn;t a Sufi, because they are mystics and are sweet.

So, if this event actually happened, of which I am skeptical, it in no means says that Muslims are wrong. I have some Muslim friends as a Catholic, and I have talked about Islam. As AndyBaker said, there are some contradictory points in the Qu'ran, and some say to Honor Christians and Jews for their Holiness, or something to that effect. The majority of Muslims subscribe to this belief, and only very few, mainly Shiites and Islamicists, actually attack and perform this "Holy War". Many Muslims believe that Jihad is mainly an inner struggle for holiness, as the word Jihad means "struggle."

As a Catholic, I would like to clarify one point about Rightwingers reply, mainly because it applies to this topic very much. The Pope was not declared infallible until long after the Crusades, once again showing that not all religious leaders ideas are the representation of the religion. That is a very fine line KFC.

I'm afraid that your title question harbors a great misunderstanding. "Allah" and "Jesus" are not analogous. Indeed, Muhammed and Jesus aren't analogous, either. Indeed, Muslims believe that the Holy Qu'ran itself is God's true manifestation on Earth, much as Christians believe that Jesus Christ was YHWH's manifestation on Earth. You would be better served to ask the question "Arabic God" or "Judeo-Christian God," although the Qu'ran makes it pretty clear that "Allah" is the same thing as "YHWH."

Indeed, it is not surprising that the Judeo-Christo-Islamic religions have given us a legacy of war and suffering, seeing as YHWH was originally given the title S'baoth, making his name mean "YHWH of the spears." In his earliest worshipped form, YHWH was a war god, a god to be called upon during times of battle. It is only later that he supplants the other gods of the Canaanite pantheon to encompass all aspects of life. You and Mr. Mathes misundertand history, and so you misunderstand the deity you worship.

But as for the question itself, I vote: none of the above.

Cheers.

The Bible is centuries older than the Koran, thus proving its' superiority.

I see your banishment is over.  Try to write more than one line zingers as most here do not know you from before.  This response is a non-sequitar.

As a Catholic, I would like to clarify one point about Rightwingers reply, mainly because it applies to this topic very much. The Pope was not declared infallible until long after the Crusades, once again showing that not all religious leaders ideas are the representation of the religion. That is a very fine line KFC.

The pope was never declared infallible.  It is only when he speaks Ex-cathedra (for the Church) on matters that are not controversial that he is considered infallible.  Since the middle ages, he has done that twice.

The pope was never declared infallible. It is only when he speaks Ex-cathedra (for the Church) on matters that are not controversial that he is considered infallible. Since the middle ages, he has done that twice.

That is correct, I mispoke. He is only infallible when he writes dogma.

First, while this is a great anecdote.

I don't believe it happened for a minute.

No one can be so stupid they walk into a trap like that!

I don't believe it happened for a minute

It's a sppof.  A fake.  A lie. It NEVER happened. 

I went to Snopes and checked it out....the verified that it NEVER did happen. 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

Most of these forwarded emails that involve the christian right proving some poor liberal or foreigner or person of a different faith wrong for their beliefs or shaming them for their hypocrisy are fake.  Every so often you'll get one that's true, but it's rare.  People just can't seem to resist embellishing them - it's like that chinese whispers game you played in school where one person whispered a word into the person next to them's ear, and then that person whispers to the nest person in line, and so on and so on....until you get to the last person who has to say aloud the word they had whispered to them.  What started out as 'coffee' ends up as 'halibut' or something equally as ridiculous.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but this is just a nice story.  Nothing more.  A bit like most of bible really, huh? 

 

Sorry to rain on your parade, but this is just a nice story

Never claimed it as any more than that. Just thought it was thought provoking, and I believe, trueor not (I'll check into it) does have a ring of truth to it. I have yet to hear of any Muslim Cleric denouncing their people's violence. In fact just the opposite, they seem to be encouraging it.

Try to write more than one line zingers as most here do not know you from before

That would be me..........

KFC, don’t you think we can afford a bit more breathing space from our Holy Scriptures than this?

Com'on Andy you have to get some different lines. I get it. Really I do. I just don't agree. But that's ok....we're still friends, right?

One of the things I'm thinking is, "why hasn't anybody jumped in with arguments about how Christians run around preaching--and perpetrating--violence and murder?"

Oh and this? I'd really have to know who you mean here. If a so called Christian is preaching violence and murder.....I'd have to question who he really belonged to.

A tree is known by it's fruit.

It's a sppof. A fake. A lie. It NEVER happened.

Didn't I say this? No one seemed to consider all the doubts that my points raised, but whatever. I figured it was contrived.

and I believe, trueor not (I'll check into it) does have a ring of truth to it.

Man, you truly are a christian. You're willing to reputable, researched proof given to you by someone else (and I'm not claiming to have researched it, Snopes did that) and cling to the belief that this is true in the face of all facts showing just the opposite - just because you WANT it to be true. Snopes asked the person who gave the quote if it was true, and he said it was to the best of his memory. They went and asked eyewitnesses, people who were THERE, at the event - and a few of them denied that anything had ever happened. The only 'ring' of truth about this is the one you WANT to be there.

But you believe whatever it is you need to believe to make it through the day.

Didn't I say this? No one seemed to consider all the doubts that my points raised, but whatever. I figured it was contrived.

I did, and that's what sent me off to snopes to provide KFC here with evidence that it's untrue. My BS-ometer was twitching anyway, but your response sent it into high alert.

Dharma:

I went to Snopes and checked it out....the verified that it NEVER did happen.

Good Ol' Snopes.com!

Good Ol' Snopes.com!

I LOVE snopes. Whenever someone sends me a forwarded email I got check it out on snopes, then send it back with a link to the snopes page proving it wrong and a big black sentence that reads 'now you know why I ask you to NOT forward stuff to me!!!'

I just don't agree. But that's ok....we're still friends, right?

Of course we're still friends KFC, you know that.

Com'on Andy you have to get some different lines.

There were some new lines after that. The Hitler bit, for example.

Exodus 22:18 "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live. "

Leviticus 20:27 "A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them."

I could go on and on. There is the killing of the Israelites by the Levites after the Golden Calf, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah....

There is plenty of hate to go round.

One thing troubles me about the nature of the story and I realize that it does not originate with KFC. Why do people feel the need to make up lies to feel that their religion is superior?

I LOVE snopes.

Another couple of goodies is Hoaxbusters.com and Museum of Hoaxes.  But snopes is where I look first as well.

One thing troubles me about the nature of the story and I realize that it does not originate with KFC. Why do people feel the need to make up lies to feel that their religion is superior?

I dont think this is actually a "our religion is better than yours", but more in response to 9-11 and Islamic fundamentalism.

One thing troubles me about the nature of the story and I realize that it does not originate with KFC. Why do people feel the need to make up lies to feel that their religion is superior?

I don't know, but american christianity is terrible about doing it. Then again, fundamental islam might be doing it too and I wouldn't know about it because I'm not living in a muslim country.

However....I don't see many american jews making up stories about christians and how judaism is better than christianity. I also don't see many american buddhists, hindus, sikhs, pagans, wiccans and druids making up tall tales about christianity that paint their faith of choice in a superior light. So, from where I'm standing, it appears that american christians are the worst offenders for this kind of thing. Just IMO, that is. I don't have any proof to back it up.

dont think this is actually a "our religion is better than yours", but more in response to 9-11 and Islamic fundamentalism.

I think it's a bit of both. I think it's a bit about 9-11 and the war in Iraq, but I also think it's about christianity wanting to make sure people know how peaceful they really are compared to the so-called 'religion of peace' - and that, to me, is a case of 'my religion's better than yours'.

Again, just my opinion.

Even though I knew this wasn't true...I have seen a few instances in my life of things of this nature. So I wouldn't say it never happens. But no one who claims to be a "leader" of any faith will walk into so obvious a trap!

This is not a total work of fiction as Dharma is leading us to believe. Rick Matthes and his wife are the founders of Mission Gate Prison Ministries. Here's a bit more to the story. Sounds to me while it was true...it was somewhat embellished.

Mathes, however, maintains that his is an accurate account, using the facts he knew at the time, and did go into some more detail making the encounter seem less antagonistic than his original account:

"...the inmate was introduced as an 'Imam'. Mr. Kneist was not there to know what was said or not and cannot disprove that what I wrote wasn't said. In fact when I said, 'I have a hard time being your friend when your faith says to kill me to go to heaven.' everyone burst out laughing. When his presentation was over and it was time for a break, we all felt sorry for the inmate including my self. In fact I gave him a sign and said 'Salaam' and he responded with a knowing smile. Knowing that there wasn't any animosity between us.

"I really asked the questions I needed to know the answers to and he did not respond as I thought he would have. I expected him to defend this "jihad" thing as rebel Muslims using religion to cloak their evil deed in. "

His silence leads me to conclude that either he was ignorant of his faith, was caught off guard and speechless, or agreed with my premise and conclusion (which I think he was).

"I am getting 24 emails in favor of the article to 1 against. We all agree that there is a "simmering volcano" in the Muslim community. Give me an Imam that will sing "God Bless America" or will say the "Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag" and I will listen to them discredit the fears we have about the Muslim community and all that we see and hear in the media. Until the American Muslim community speaks up, I have my doubts about those who join them."

Nonetheless, this essay falls short of being the proof that Islam's leaders cannot deny the violent nature of their own religion that many would have it be. Since both sides of the argument have recognized that the person Mathes was questioning was not an Islamic official nor a recognized expert in the religion, his actions should not be considered indicative of all Muslims. Break this chain. Link