Draginol Draginol

Biblical contradictions

Biblical contradictions

How far are you willing to bend to adhere to dogma?

There has been an ongoing debate on another blog over whether the bible has contradictions on it.  On the one hand you have the skeptics. In the middle the realists. And on the other side, for lack of a better word, you have the dogmatics.

There are countless perceived contradictions in the bible. But whether they are truly a contradiction depends on how far you are willing to read between the lines. 

One of the most blatant contradictions in my opinion is the account of how Judas (the betrayer of Jesus) died.  In the book fo Matthew, Judas feels remorse for what he has done, throws his silver coins down and goes off and hangs himself.

But in the book of Acts, Judas keeps the money, acquires a field and falls headling and bursts open his body.

So how do you reconcile these differences?  In my opinion, a reasonable person would say "Oops. one of them is in error."  But to those who obsess over the literal accuracy of every word in the bible then nothing is beyond interpretting or extending to support your fanatical belief.

For example, with regarsd to Judas, the Christian Apologetics Ministry argues:

"There is no contradiction here at all because both are true.  A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.  In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open.  In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.
     Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging.  Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out.  Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does."

But that requires the reader to suspend belief beyond the point where any reasonable person could accept. Here's why:

1) Matthew states explicitly that Judas threw away the money and that the priests then took the money bought a field to bury strangers.  By contrast, Acts says that Judas bought the field and feel "headlong" and his bowels came out.

2) Some argue "well, he didn't die from hanging, that he may have fallen down and that's how he died."  This is really silly because it doesn't say he attempted to hang himself. He hanged himself. Period. If you're going to take the bible literally, you can't start adding your own spin on it.  And if you hang yourself, you don't fall head long. 

3) Another argument I've seen is that well, acts doesn't actually say he died. It just says his bowels gushed out. He may not have died from this.  Please.  At that point, it becomes meaningless.  You fall and your bowels come out, you die.

Common sense says that in one passage, Judas felt guilt, thew away the money, and hung himself.  And the other passage takes the irony path -- Judas the villain keeps the money, buys  a field and ironically dies horribly getting his just deserts.  One is a suicide, the other implies an accident which is a pretty important difference.

This is an age-old debate that pretty much boils down to seperating the zealots from the non-zealots.  After debating the issue myself, I decided to also look to see if others had debated this issue on-line.  In turns out, yep, this particular blatant contradiction has been argued many tiems before.

One writer who looked at it put it like this:

How do these verses contradict each other?

  1. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money to the priests before dying, then he went to hang himself. After that, the priests bought a field. In Acts, Judas used the money himself to buy a field.
  2. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money before dying, and then a field was bought. In Acts, the field was bought before Judas died.
  3. In Matthew, he died by hanging himself, whilst in Acts he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out.

How could an inerrantist Christian respond to these three points? Let me speculate on some possible counter-arguments.

As for point 1, one could infer that when Acts says that Judas bought the field, what is meant is that the priests bought the field on his behalf. This, however, is not permissible, since if one is allowed to change the meaning of the language, no significant discussion about the actual meaning of anything can be conducted. In ordinary language, we do not say that "this man purchased a field for $100" if someone else purchased it for their own usage with money thrown away by its original owner. Clearly, from Matthew, Judas did not give any order for the priests to buy a field for his money, and even if he did, why would they obey him, who they despised?

As for point 2, it seems hard to come up with a counter-argument, since the past tense is used in Matthew ("went and hanged himself"), implying that the execution of the deed had taken place before the purchase of the field. Meanwhile, Acts clearly presents the case where the field is bought prior to his dying (indeed, since he is said to have bought it himself!).

As for point 3, it is logically possible that the story in Acts is consistent with Matthew in terms of the method of dying, but it seems highly unlikely, from how his death is described. If one is to find consistency, one must include many things not in the text. Amongst other things, one wonders how the bowels could gush out simply from his having died by hanging, and one also wonders how he could fall headlong in a field, and where the tree came from (normally, there are no trees in the middle of a field).

Note that it suffices for only one of the three stated contradictions to hold for there to be a contradiction.

In other words, this isn't a new issue.  The handful of people who dogmatically cling to the belief that the Christian bible contains no contradictions have to be, in themselves, willing to essentially add new passages in the bible to fill in the missing gaps.  At which point, the whole argument becomes meaningless.

And this is just one of the more blatant ones. There are plenty of others.  Contradictions in the bible only are a problem if you take the bible literally rather than as a general guide.  Sadly, there are people who cling to the literal words as being infallible.  I personally think that those who do have much less faith than they let on.  If one truly has faith, then such contradictions would be easier to admit to and they'd be able to move on.

 

16,039 views 82 replies
Reply #26 Top
Well if he hanged himself I would say there most likely was a tree to do it on. How tall? How can we know that? I don't know. How does one fall? Two thoughts here. One just the gravity of a heavy body hanging for some time and giving way or the rotting corpse falling below after hanging for a period of time.


See, again your comprehension skills are hit and miss KFC. I didn't ask "How does one fall?" I asked "How does one fall HEAD LONG from being hanged?" Big difference. So, if he were a rotting corpse that had been hanging for a long period of time to allow easy rupture and spillage on contact, he couldn't have taken the dive position to end up head long. The question about how tall the tree would be pertained to the fact that if he were to dive out of the hanging position some how, he would have to be pretty high up to hit with such an impact to have his bowels spill out. You just don't want to see the problem with that.

You admitted that you put the two accounts together and came up with what you saw. You are applying your own surmision and not taking the words at their given meaning. Given your ability to get what people right here on this blog have said wrong, don't you think it is possible you don't have everything right about the bible?

Again though, if you believe in your heart that you are correct, good for you. You just aren't good at arguing the facts.
Reply #27 Top
To play the devil's... ur... the Bible's advocate, in Acts it says:

"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."


Now the Bible here relates what Peter said that day, not a play-by-play of what actually happened to Judas. Is it possible that Peter didn't really know the details of what happened? Peter lied earlier when he denied Jesus, so maybe Peter lied then, too. Or maybe Peter was wrong in Acts, or maybe he was just winging it. Like Paul, later, when he tells people that some of the things he says are basically his opinion.

As for the order in Matthew, it says:

"[3] Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[4] Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
[5] And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
[6] And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
[7] And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
[8] Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. "


Does it really look like they are stating for sure that the field was bought before Judas died? It doesn't seem to be promoting any order to the events, really. It doesn't say he hung himself from the rafters, or a tree, or tied the rope to the top of some tower and fell 50 feet before the rope caught, tore off his head, and the rest of his body fell and splattered on the ground.

The old Testament tells about David getting the guy killed to take his wife. Does that mean God wants us to kill people to take their wives? Or is it an ACCOUNT of what one guy did? Is Acts supposed to be an accurate reiteration of previous material, or an account of what was happening and what Peter in this one section said?

In terms of refuting the literal truth of the Bible, it is a bad example. Nothing there really says "What Peter says here is the total and unquestionable truth". It is just relating what happened, isn't it?

Again, I'm not promoting the perfection of the Bible as God's word. I don't believe in any such. I think the circumstances of what the Bible is, and how it is put together, and the fact that no one really said it was SUPPOSED to be perfect is plenty to question that.
Reply #28 Top
P.S. If you really want to dig into the whole thing at a fundamental level, what about the part in Luke where it says:

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."


So was it Judas or Satan that was responsible? In the Old Testament it says that God 'hardened the heart' of the Pharoh when Moses demanded that he let the Israelites go. Does that mean that God CHOSE for the Pharoh to refuse and get all the firstborn in Egypt killed?

There's a lot of meat for discussion without having to get into details. Try Job, too.
Reply #29 Top
All good points in question. I have know beef with taking the bible as a collection of stories to learn from. I only have problems with people who proclaim it is the end all be all and that it has NO CONTRADICTIONS. The same people who declare that the bible was written by eyewitnesses who all have consistant stories of what happened.
Reply #30 Top
" All good points in question. I have know beef with taking the bible as a collection of stories to learn from. I only have problems with people who proclaim it is the end all be all and that it has NO CONTRADICTIONS. "

But that's kind of my point. This doesn't have to be a contradiction. It's just telling you what Peter said to the audience in Acts. It doesn't really say that he was correct, or wasn't lying, or might have been mistaken. It just says he said it. You can see around here people claim other people said this and that, with the words a few posts above he input box, and still get it wrong, lol.

I'm not trying to make the issue cloudy, just saying that sometimes when people drop to this level of detail they start overlooking the more obvious reasons why the Bible might not be perfect, like the fact that no one ever really claimed it was in the first place. At least the people who wrote the material collected in it. If the first account got it right, and Peter was just mistaken, does that refute anything? Other than Peter's care for accuracy?

Reply #31 Top
See, again your comprehension skills are hit and miss KFC. I didn't ask "How does one fall?" I asked "How does one fall HEAD LONG from being hanged?" Big difference


First off Jill I cut and pasted your whole quote. I saw what you said. For brevity sake only I asked "how does one fall?" You're very quick to criticize. My answer would be the same. I can't even take credit for this. Many great scholars well before me have come up with this explanation.

You just aren't good at arguing the facts.


Well I could say....maybe you're just not wanting to accept them. It's a tit for tat argument here.


Now the Bible here relates what Peter said, not a play-by-play of what actually happened. Is it possible that Peter didn't really know the details of what happened?


I like how you put the whole context together. That is very important and I agree with you that Peter was basically just giving a synopsis not a detailed chronological report.

I don't think Peter was lying tho. I think we see a big difference in Peter before and after the resurrection. He finally got it after Christ reinstated him in John 21.

The old Testament tells about David getting the guy killed to take his wife. Does that mean God wants us to kill people to take their wives? Or is it an ACCOUNT of what one guy did?


Exactly....and one of the reasons the bible is so credible to so many people. They are real people who screwed up. If this was all made up it would have been very much cleaned up before being published. Too many things in it that should not have been in there...like Thomas and Peter the first leaders of this church; one doubted and one denied. Paul killing the Christians before he realized what he was doing and going on to be one of the greats of the bible. David comitting adultery and murder before getting on his face before God. If one is trying to look good these things would not have been put in there.
Reply #32 Top
So was it Judas or Satan that was responsible? In the Old Testament it says that God 'hardened the heart' of the Pharoh when Moses demanded that he let the Israelites go. Does that mean that God CHOSE for the Pharoh to refuse and get all the firstborn in Egypt killed?

There's a lot of meat for discussion without having to get into details. Try Job, too.




I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole......
Reply #33 Top
Don't take what I am saying as backing your assertion that the Bible is perfect, either, KFC. You also aren't answering any of the harder questions, like whoever claimed the Bible was infallible in the first place? The Bible you are referring to was collected hundreds, and sometimes thousands of years after the material was written.

In terms of the real meat of infallibility, wouldn't the props go to the people who finally collected these works into one book? Who were they, exactly? How would you back up the assertion that the got all the right books, and translated them perfectly, without allowing politics or religious bias to enter into the decisions? Have you studied much about religion in the Middle Ages? Do those seem like the kind of folks who could pull something like that off?

Reply #34 Top
"I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole....."

Lol, probably for the best. Brad does a pretty good job, but you don't want none of what I got. .

Reply #35 Top
To BakerStreet:

In the Old Testament it says that God 'hardened the heart' of the Pharoh when Moses demanded that he let the Israelites go. Does that mean that God CHOSE for the Pharoh to refuse and get all the firstborn in Egypt killed?


That's exacly what it means. Elsewhere (no I don't remember where and I'm too drunk to go searching right now - but somewhere in the OT) it says 'I will have mercy upon those I will to have mercy on'. There are a variety of other passages in a similar vein).

If God chooses to fuck you up as an example to the rest of us, then such an example you will be. There's a very small passage in one of the five books of Moses in which God, apparently on a whim, decides he's going to kill Moses. It's only by the intercession of his wife (who describes God as her 'bridegroom of blood') that he's saved.

However, back to the topic. It's not a contradiction of the inerrancy of the Bible to point to the contradictions within it. Since God created the world as it is, and the Bible along with it, then it must be part of his purpose that the Bible contain contradictions. That being so, the bible is inerrant as a reflection of God's will precisely because it contains contradictions.

Why it should do so, and what the existence of sontradictions might mean (other than as a source of amusement to God and the First Born as they watch us argue over them, pointlessly and without any possibility of resolution) is another question entirely.

Personally, I believe that all 'revelations' are partial, that all 'inspiration' becomes corrupt as it moves from the mind of the inspired to the page (or whatever) that's going to record that inspiration.

If we lived in a two dimensional world and I was to attempt to describe the three dimensional world that was revealed to me in a vision then a) what kind of language would I use to convey something that neither I nor anyone else has had direct experience of; and b) what's the likelihood of my original inspiration being received and correctly understood as I had intended to convey it?

a) = metaphorical, analogical, and imaginative. b) = Slim to none.

any production created as a consequence of religious experience is bound to be contradictory of other such experiences and productions (and even contradictory within itself)because it's a personal experience of something that transcends all the categories of thought that we use to describe our experience. By definition, God is Other and incomprehensible. The only people who have a problem with this necessary unintelligibility are those who are afraid, and those who have an agenda of their own to carry out through the imposition of dogma.

Your Bible, like your God (if you have one) is yours and not mine. And my bible is mybible, to be read and understood by me as I see fit (thank you, Luther). And the same applies to anyone else reading the Book: what they read is what they read. Controversy over interpretation is as foolish as it is impossible of resolution.
Reply #36 Top

Bakersteet:

[5] And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
[6] And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
[7] And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
[8] Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. "

My reading is that there is a definite order here.  He hanged himself and then the preists took the silver pieces.  I.e. Judas was dead by the time the field was purchased. That's my reading.

 

Reply #37 Top

Can you elaborate here? When have I shown you any disrespect?

Certainly.  You show disrespect when:

a) You don't take the time to read what someone else says before responding and ignoring the points the person you are responding to already made.

b) You assume that those who don't agree with your point of view need to be taught something. E.g. You assumed that I didn't know Tolkien's background.  You assumed I hadn't read the bible. 

c) When you make statements such as "Maybe God is trying to speak to you through us."

d) When you literally compare yourself with Jesus Christ as you have done on a few occasions to point out how Jesus had naysayers too -- just like you.

e) When you assume that anyone who disagrees with you has a closed mind (unbelievers will never believe) while you yourself demonstrate unwilling to hear other points of view.

f) When you assume that anyone who has a different interpretation of anything from you is mistaken and needs to be corrected when the issue in question is subjective.

g) When you assume you know more on subjects that you've barely looked into. For instance, I saw you telling Bhudists about their philosophy even though it was clear that you had very little understanding of it.

h) When you ask "How have I been disrespectful?" only hours after having gone to a blog that talks about the contradictions in the bible that actually uses the apologist's quote and responds to it and then proceeds to repost the same quote that is in the original article as your response demonstrating that you didn't even bother to read what had been posted.  If someone takes significant time to do some research, you should show the courtesy of at least reading it before tossing off a copy and paste response.

These are a few off the top of my head. 

Probably my biggest beef with you rests on one master assumption you make about others: You assume that Christianity is the destination and that those who aren't there are wayward and need guidance.

You don't know us. We have all taken our journeys. I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic. That is, I don't claim to know whether there is a God or not. I have no idea. That is where I am so far in my journey. But it has been a long journey and one that has involved a great deal of time and thought on the matter over many years. For you to assume that those of us who don't think as you do have simply not read the bible or are obtuse is insulting and derrogatory. Like many, I started out as a believer. Most Americans start out as Christians after all. I didn't have some bad experience that changed my life. I've had a blessed life. You would be a hard pressed to find anyone here on JoeUser who has led more a charmed life than I have. We aven joke about my "Good luck vortex" where things just, almost by magic, things just turn out well. I simply have seen mounting evidence that while I don't know if there's a God or not, there is little in the bible that is believable in terms of a set of facts.

I usually use Noah's Ark as the litmus test. Anyone who believes it happened as literally described in the bible is someone who has not been on the same journey as I have (to put it mildly). I started out a believer when I was young. I even tried to argue things like the "flood layer" and all kinds of other things when I was younger. But over time and through my interest in history and science, the story just didn't hold up. I didn't set out to prove or disprove anything, it's simply a matter of having interests in learning about things unrelated to the bible. The knowledge I gained gave me the tools to form my own conclusions.

The reality is, one's faith is largely determined by geography which, I think, demonstrates pretty solidly that there is no obvious universal truth. Had you, KFC, been born in Pakistan I have no doubt you'd be a Muslim. But instead, you were born in a Christian dominated area and so rather than worshipping the Quran, you worship the bible. Same difference.

Reply #38 Top
"My reading is that there is a definite order here. He hanged himself and then the preists took the silver pieces. I.e. Judas was dead by the time the field was purchased. That's my reading."


I dunno, to me it looks like two separate plot lines. You mean they left it there on the ground until after all the rest had taken place? It would have sounded odd I think to have said:

-And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed.
-And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
-And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
-Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
-Judas went and hanged himself."

Just literary criticism but you've already left Judas's plotline, gone to do something else, and then returned for just one line. Nitpicky, I know. IF I were writing it I think I would have done the same thing. The part about hanging himself seeme like an after thought if you do it like that.

I guess you could say:

-And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed.
-And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
-Judas went and hanged himself.
-And the chief priest took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
-Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

Still seems easier to resolve each plotline separately.

Anyway, I still think the one in Acts is just relating what Peter said, not necessarily stating that Peter was representing it accurately.
Reply #39 Top

No, I'm with you there. 

I think this chronology is the most intuitive (to me anyway):

1) Judas feels guilty. Tosses down the coins and runs off and hangs himself.

2) The priests pick up the silver and debate what's going on.  I'm willing to agree that they picked it up before he hanged himself.  But it's not like they instantly bought something. It implies there was some discussion about what should be done.  Whereas I read it that Judas probably hung himself pretty immediately (i.e. that night). 

Your latter summary is what I am saying makes sense to me. 

Point being: In that account Judas didn't buy a field.  Judas didn't go to said field and burst his bowels.  But that is what the other account says happened.

Moreover, one clearly implies remorse and the other not remorse.  In one account he's guilt ridden and kills himself.  In the other, it comes across that he's not guilt ridden but dies an ironic (and painful) death.

People don't fall headling and have their bowels burst out from hanging. I think it's pretty clear that they were both giving accounts of how they thought Judas died -- one by hanging and another from falling headlong and fatally injuring himself. 

I think it's a real stretch -- a REAL stretch -- to interpret it differently.  But then again, we are talking about people who believe that Noah had every land animal and bird on his boat (and that somehow the fresh water animals are fine).

Reply #40 Top
"People don't fall headling and have their bowels burst out from hanging. I think it's pretty clear that they were both giving accounts of how they thought Judas died -- one by hanging and another from falling headlong and fatally injuring himself. "


Yeah, I agree, I just think that it was Peter giving the account in Acts, not the Bible narrating the actual occurences, and since there is no implication that Peter was infallible (he'd lied a bit earlier to save his butt), the difference between the two doesn't really say anything about the Bible, per se.

I still wanna know where those who refuse to accept anything but the infallibility of the Bible got the idea. I'd like KFC or one of the others to tell me, beyond what someone told them in person, where I can find it written by people who wrote the Bible that the Bible, itself, is infallible.
Reply #41 Top
First off Jill I cut and pasted your whole quote. I saw what you said. For brevity sake only I asked "how does one fall?" You're very quick to criticize. My answer would be the same. I can't even take credit for this. Many great scholars well before me have come up with this explanation.


So you took out one word for 'brevity'? That one word makes all the difference. I think I am definitely clear on the problem here. I wasn't quick to criticize. You would fail miserably as a detective, lawyer or forensic pathologist. You can say the answer would be the same but that makes no sense. You can say it was explained by "scholars" but I have seen no logical explaination.

How would you back up the assertion that the got all the right books, and translated them perfectly, without allowing politics or religious bias to enter into the decisions?


That has been my key question all along Baker. A)Where is it proclaimed that you have to take the bible literally? B) If you take it literally, how can you say on one hand that it was written by eyewitnesses who never contradicted each other and on the other say that it was written by "real people who screwed up"?

I'd like KFC or one of the others to tell me, beyond what someone told them in person, where I can find it written by people who wrote the Bible that the Bible, itself, is infallible.


I'd like to see that too.
Reply #42 Top

Yeah, I agree, I just think that it was Peter giving the account in Acts, not the Bible narrating the actual occurences, and since there is no implication that Peter was infallible (he'd lied a bit earlier to save his butt), the difference between the two doesn't really say anything about the Bible, per se.

I totally agree.  You and I are seeing eye to eye.  I think one of them was mistaken.  But then I don't see the bible as infallible. It is the work of men.

Reply #43 Top
Hey Draginol,

Thanks for bringing up these contradictions. Some as I look can be answered. But I agree these two passages don't line up. Definitely very interesting study. I really appreciate everyone's input on this. I will definitely take some time and digest this one. Thanks.

AD
Reply #44 Top
Islam itself was founded on the notion that the revelations of God had been corrupted by Jews and Christians.

According to the Koran, Moses revealed God's word to the children of Adam, and over time, their clergy misconstrued those teachings for their own ends. Then Jesus came and renewed God's message, only to have his followers misapply, and misuse his teachings.

Then along comes Mohhamed, who claimed to be literally channelling the word of God. He was mankinds last chance to get it right, and it cannot be translated, as it was revealed in Arabic, it is to be understood in Arabic ( strange that the prophet was illiterate, his revelations were preserved by both scribe and oral history, and not compiled until years after his death, and then a single version was not recognized until the 4th Caliph decreed his version as the correct one, subsequently destroying all other versions )
Despite the passage of time the Koran is accepted by Muslim's as the literal word of God, and it is repleat with a multitude of contridictions, and supplemented with the Sunnah of the prophet ( the sunnah is a compilation of traits, actions, and deeds of Mohhamed, that was written 200 years after his death... how accurate do you suppose...? ).

How anyone of faith ( much less those of little or no faith )can attempt to assign historical fact to any man made text is beyond understanding.

These books were written to control populations, to establish moral and ethical guidelines, to offer proverbial consolation and hope in an otherwise cruel and ruthless world.....devinely inspired? Well.......

The multitude of religions all basically contain the germ of monotheism, So perhaps there is a germ of truth somewhere within the various dogmas. One brand appeals to a certain culture, while another brand appeals to another. Same goes for the variations of Denominational Christians; some folks go for the hell fire and brimstone, while others prefer the peace, love, and tranquility brand.
It's a social preference in my opinion, just like what club to go to on Saturday night.........

I'm with Brad on this one, agnostic, or at least a deist perhaps.........
Reply #45 Top
Brad, how about spell check in the comments section? After I posted I feel like an idiot for several of my mispellations...please forgive my lack of pre-editing my post
Reply #46 Top
You also aren't answering any of the harder questions, like whoever claimed the Bible was infallible in the first place? The Bible you are referring to was collected hundreds, and sometimes thousands of years after the material was written.


Well Baker, I'm not one to run away from any questions so I'm not sure where I have but here I am and I'll try my best to answer. Thousands tho? It's only been two thousand years since Christ left the earth. How could it be thousands? We know Martin Luther left the CC as a result of reading the same scriptures we have now in 1517. That's almost 500 yrs ago.

First the bible that I know was written over a period of 1500 years by about 40 different authors of all walks. By 325 the bible as we have it today was collected and put together.

The canon was formed as each book was written. The formation of the canon was only a recognition of these books. These books were canonical before any tests were put to them. The tests only prove what was there. It's like saying a certain student is very intelligent before any test is given to him. The test just reveals this.

The OT books were put together by Ezra in the 5th Century BC. The Jewish scribes kept meticulous care of thes OT scrolls.
Jesus himself gave credibility to these books. He not only quoted from them he made it clear they were to be read.

In Luke 24:44 he told his disciples that the scriptures must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning him. By saying what he did he indicated the three sections into which the Hebrew Bible was divided...the Law, the Prophets and the "Writings".

Also in Luke 11:51 "From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah" Jesus here confirms his witness to the extent of the OT canon. Abel was the first martyr and Zechariah is the last martyr to be named in the OT. Basically he was saying all spoke about him from Genesis to the end of the OT scriptures.

He also got up in the temple and read from Isaiah and stopped in mid sentence (for a reason) and it said he shut the book before he said..."Today this has been fulfilled in your ears." Luke 4

At the end of Luke it says "Then he opened their understanding that they might understand the scriptures." 24:45

In John it said that Jesus is the "word" and that the "word" dwelt among us. That's why the sciptures come alive we read them. It's more than just words on paper. It's Christ come alive.

Also I'm sure you know what Peter said in 2 Peter 1:20. "Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Holy...means set apart.

Timothy said. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine......

inspiration means breathed out by God.

Notice what Jesus did to his disciples before he went up.

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, Receive you the Holy Spirit." John 20:22

So to answer your question I would say that Jesus, Peter and Timothy verified the infallibility of scipture.
Reply #47 Top
Also I'm sure you know what Peter said in 2 Peter 1:20. "Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


Then why is there so much interpretation involved? I have heard many interpretations including your own just here on JU.

In John it said that Jesus is the "word" and that the "word" dwelt among us.


That could just mean that Jesus was spreading the word of God. That certainly doesn't have to mean that the bible has to be taken literally.

Thousands tho? It's only been two thousand years since Christ left the earth. How could it be thousands?


More than one thousand is the plural of thousand so two thousand would still qualify as thousands. Reading comprehension again.
Reply #48 Top
The OT books were put together by Ezra in the 5th Century BC.


Sounds like that qualifies as thousands of years ago.
Reply #49 Top

Then why is there so much interpretation involved? I have heard many interpretations including your own just here on JU.


What Peter was saying was that scripture interprets itself. That's why I keep saying there are no contradictions. The answers are in there somewhere. We need to search them out. Not all the answers are there tho. We don't know the "whys" of scripture quite often. Why did God do this? Why did God do that? He only gave us what he wanted us to know. Someday I believe it will all make sense. Until then...we see thru a glass darkly.

My being involved in many different groups over the years taught me that many do interpret the scriptures as you said. They ignore certain scriptures to further an agenda to do so. That's why there are so many out there.

Jesus is the "logos" He is the word. If you go all the way to REV 19 you see he has a sword coming from his mouth when he returns. In scripture the sword represents the "word of God." I take this to mean that we will be judged by HIS word and what we did with it. He is not separate from it. He is the Logos. Since the sword is double edged I believe that means one side cuts to bleed and the other cuts to bless.
Reply #50 Top
What Peter was saying was that scripture interprets itself. That's why I keep saying there are no contradictions.


But can't you see that that is your interpretation? Look how many different denominations of christians there are due to interpretation of the bible. How do you know you have the correct one? All can't be right unless it doesn't have to be taken literally. Perhaps it is like others have said, we will be judged on our intent. Even if you are wrong in your method, i.e. taking the bible literally, your intent is to serve God in every way you can. Others may have the same intent but are going about it with different methods. Who, other than God, is to say who has it right?