Salvation: Old Testament vs. New Testament

I guess it's all in how you look at it.

Jesus wasn't born until the year 0, but did that mean he didn't exist?

In the account of the Creation in Genesis, it speaks of God in the plural.. "and God said, Lets us make man in our image..." (Gen 1:27). In The Gospel of John it says, "In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Teh same wian in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (St. John 1: 1-3).

Also, when Moses was on Mt. Sinai, it was Jesus who spoke to him.

Adam knew Jesus, so did Moses and all the other prophets.

Before Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself, the only way to repent for sins was by animal sacrifice. Jesus fulfilled the law of sacrifice by accepting the price to be paid for all our sins, as long as we recognize and accept his sacrifice.

God didn't change how it was done, Jesus became the blood sacrifice for everyone willing to accept it.

Jesus wasn't born until the year 0, but did that mean he didn't exist?

Nope... I'm with ya

God didn't change how it was done, Jesus became the blood sacrifice for everyone willing to accept it.

Exactly... whether you look at it as the old system foreshadowing the sacrifice to come (remember the scapegoat?) or Jesus fulfilling the ultimate sacrifice, the result is the same. It was faith in God that brought righteousness, agreed?

Also, when Moses was on Mt. Sinai, it was Jesus who spoke to him.

And who do you suppose the man in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-Nego was?

I believe they were credited with righteousness.....

God is outside of time. Like when you read a book that spans 200 years, it doesn't take you 200 years to read it because you are outside its time line.

I believe Jesus' payment was made for all believers regardless of their time.

We are judged by the light we are given. So if a man is born on a desert island, never hears about Christ, he is not lost (well maybe like the series but not his soul ). Creation is God's witness to Him. He will be judged according to the light given him by God.

Only God can judge the heart.

Your question poses an interesting, but unresolvable question. To wit: ParaTed2k said it was Jesus who spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai. As a Jewish believer, I respectfully disagree, as I do not believe that Jesus is God. For those who believe Jesus is the messiah, then Ted's reasoning makes sense. However, if you don't accept that Jesus is the messiah, then David's belief in Jesus as messiah is perhaps unanswerable (assuming that human David (the Human) could have known about Jesus (the Human).

Here's a link explaining Jewish beliefs about the messiah.
Link

Thanks for the interesting question, Shalom!

In the account of the Creation in Genesis, it speaks of God in the plural.. "and God said, Lets us make man in our image..." (Gen 1:27).

Passage Genesis 1:27:

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

I felt it necesary to correct you in your comment when you stated "our" in regard to G~d. This is not plural.

Also, when Moses was on Mt. Sinai, it was Jesus who spoke to him).

Exodus 19
At Mount Sinai

1 In the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on the very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai. 2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.

3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you [a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.

9 The LORD said to Moses, "I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you." Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

10 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, 'Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.' Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain."

14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, "Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations."

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain [b] trembled violently, 19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him. [c]

20 The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the LORD said to him, "Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the LORD and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the LORD, must consecrate themselves, or the LORD will break out against them."

23 Moses said to the LORD, "The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, 'Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.' "

24 The LORD replied, "Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the LORD, or he will break out against them."

25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.


Again it is not Jesus who spoke to moses it was G~d. For the sake of not offending anyones personal beliefs please take your time upon quoting historic events.

Your question poses an interesting, but unresolvable question. To wit: ParaTed2k said it was Jesus who spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai. As a Jewish believer, I respectfully disagree, as I do not believe that Jesus is God. For those who believe Jesus is the messiah, then Ted's reasoning makes sense. However, if you don't accept that Jesus is the messiah, then David's belief in Jesus as messiah is perhaps unanswerable (assuming that human David (the Human) could have known about Jesus (the Human).

See, that's the great thing, I can tell you and HC what I believe, you can tell me what you believe, and we never have to think badly of each other for it.

Thanks for the link.

I believe Jesus' payment was made for all believers regardless of their time.We are judged by the light we are given. So if a man is born on a desert island, never hears about Christ, he is not lost (well maybe like the series but not his soul ). Creation is God's witness to Him. He will be judged according to the light given him by God. Only God can judge the heart.

AMEN! I wonder how much time we spend trying to judge it ourselves?

Your question poses an interesting, but unresolvable question. To wit: ParaTed2k said it was Jesus who spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai. As a Jewish believer, I respectfully disagree, as I do not believe that Jesus is God. For those who believe Jesus is the messiah, then Ted's reasoning makes sense. However, if you don't accept that Jesus is the messiah, then David's belief in Jesus as messiah is perhaps unanswerable (assuming that human David (the Human) could have known about Jesus (the Human).

Hello, Buddah.. thanks for stopping by! I suppose I did write the article with the Christian perspective in mind. I was looking at the question through the lens of mainstream Christianity. I can certainly understand that your belief system wouldn't coincide with my analysis... makes sense. And thanks for the link

Thanks for the interesting question, Shalom!

You're very welcome. Thanks for taking the time to respond... Shalom!

Passage Genesis 1:27:27 So God created man in his own image,in the image of God he created him;male and female he created them.I felt it necesary to correct you in your comment when you stated "our" in regard to G~d. This is not plural.

Perhaps he was speaking of Genesis 1:26...

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth."

The verb "make" is `asah, and it is in the plural form of the verb.

I'll give you that Jesus appearing to Moses on Mt. Sinai is not a cut and dried.

I felt it necesary to correct you in your comment when you stated "our" in regard to G~d. This is not plural.

Deut 6:4 makes a point of both. so both are correct? Remember one can mean a unit. If I have a (singular) unit of soldiers (say 20 people). It is one unit but also plural. Your arguments isn't going anywhere. One G-D as in Deut 6:4 the hebrew root word for one is "achad" which simply means unit or unify. So one G-D can mean one unit. Hope that helps.

Buddah,

I understand the Jewish people's stance on Jesus as the messiah. Christianity's theology itself does contradict the majority of what Jews hold on so tightly (the Torah). I personally think it is a misunderstanding on both sides (maybe more so on the Christian side). It is through these misunderstandings that many of the past "Great Christian Leaders" have made anti-semitic remarks.

From my understanding Jesus isn't considered the Messiah to Jews because he only fulfilled half of the prophecy. The Christians see him as the Messiah that fulfilled more than the half (as he did away with the laws, feasts, etc...). Is the glass half empty or half full?

Jesus wasn't born until the year 0, but did that mean he didn't exist?

I know your point wasn't that he was born in year 0 but wanted to inform you that is a misconception. Jesus was born 3BC not 0.

On another note if he was the Word made flesh that is strong inference that he already existed.

Heather,

I agree with you so much! Faith is consistent throughout ALL of scripture. Imagine that from a G-D who is the same yesterday, today, and forever!

I know your point wasn't that he was born in year 0 but wanted to inform you that is a misconception. Jesus was born 3BC not 0.

First time I've heard this... where do you get that information from? Just curious.

Faith is consistent throughout ALL of scripture. Imagine that from a G-D who is the same yesterday, today, and forever!

Yes... imagine that.

Heather,

Just do some digging into history. Probably the best way to start is to hit up Google. There are so many ways that they have put together this year. I wish I could give you a simple answer but unfortunately it doesn't exist. A Scythian monk called Denis the Short is one who is attributed the credit of our AD dating system. Where it gets confusing is throughout the years there have been many modifications to the calendar that we have today. The last change to the Calendar was around 1581 when Pope Gregory XIII modified the calendar to make adjustments for easter (a holiday based on a full moon lunar calendar according to the vernal equinox). This is the calendar we have today known as the Gregorian Calendar. If this isn't enough to get you started let me know and I'll do my best.

I don't have anything to add other than I think it is a good discussion you have here.

I would like to know why God is written as G-D? Am I missing something?

I would like to know why God is written as G-D? Am I missing something?

It is really a personal preference. I do it to set it apart from the other words. To me it is a way to give reverence to the meaning. That's all.

Passage Genesis 1:27:27 So God created man in his own image,in the image of God he created him;male and female he created them.I felt it necesary to correct you in your comment when you stated "our" in regard to G~d. This is not plural.

Thanks for catching my typo. I wasn't wrong in the quote, but I was in the reference. still, the OT does refer God in the "us" plural. Yes, I am saying plural as a members of a unit. God (The Father) and God (Jesus Christ), since the Bible does teach us that Jesus (the Word) was with God when all things were created.

I don't have anything to add other than I think it is a good discussion you have here.

Thanks, Jill.

I would like to know why God is written as G-D? Am I missing something?

I know that Jews don't spell out the name of God either. I read somewhere that based on the words in Deut. 12:3-4, the Rabbis deduced that it is forbidden to erase the name of God from a written document. Since any paper upon which God's name was written and might be discarded and thus "erased", the Rabbi's forbade explicitly writing the name of God, except in holy books, with the provisions for the proper disposal of such books.

Many Jews I have spoken with say they think it would be irreverent to write out the name "God," so they type "G-D"

Adventure-Dude... do you follow the Jewish faith?

Thanks for catching my typo. I wasn't wrong in the quote, but I was in the reference. still, the OT does refer God in the "us" plural. Yes, I am saying plural as a members of a unit. God (The Father) and God (Jesus Christ), since the Bible does teach us that Jesus (the Word) was with God when all things were created.

Amen

I'm surprised nobody has bothered to read any of the New Testament authors. The early Christians certainly wondered the same thing, and the NT authors included the issue in their basic theology.

I follow the Jewish faith according to what I find Biblically. I also believe that Jesus is the Servant Messiah mentioned in scripture.

Stutefish,

I agree with you and I disagree with you all in the same sentence I don't see them wondering about the basic theology but they were not clear on how things changed now with the Messiah come and a significant prophecy fulfilled. Which I think is what you were meaning?

Which upon face value is where there are many discrepancies in theologies. Maybe that's why faith is so much more important?

I'm surprised nobody has bothered to read any of the New Testament authors.

Hmmm... I've read them. I agree, Paul shed MUCH light on this subject, particularly in Hebrews.

I also believe that Jesus is the Servant Messiah mentioned in scripture.

Me too

Interestingly the Greek name is from the Hebrew which is derived from two specifc and expressive Hebrew root words (referred to as the tetragrammaton) + yasha (a simple Hebrew verb or adverb depending on the context)

YHWH = I AM that I AM (literally the "self-existent one"
yasha = saviour (or one who saves); deliver (or one who delivers); preserver ( or one who preserves); avenger (or one who avenges)

These root words combined in context or in fact are specific and significant in the Hebrew Scriptures. Jehovah is the only true and living God and the only Saviour. Whoever relied upon the Name of the LORD (YHWH) as the Saviour (yasha) was assured of salvation. There was no other Name or means of salvation.

The Messiah (Annointed One) prophesied to come as the "suffering saviour"; cursed for hanging on a tree; pierced for our transgressions; crushed for our iniquities; etc. was viewed in faith to be coming as the promised Seed (singular) of Abraham through whom all nations (gentiles) would be saved. And without the shedding of blood there is no remission (forgiveness of sins).

OT believers of these amazing prophetic scriptures looked forward in faith to the redemption and salvation God would provide through His annointed one (Messiah) as an act of grace and loving-kindness undeserved.

A Hebrew prophet declared under the inspiration of God; "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Summary:
Eternal salvation, assurance of access into the very presence of the only true & living Holy God has always been based on God's grace alone, in faith alone, on the basis of the sacrificial
blood of God's chosen substitute for all our sin. In a word, "Yeshua."
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works," Romans 4:6
Maranatha!