A God of Hate or Love?

I am always thankful when deserving His wrath I receive His Mercy.

I know Him both ways.

I love Him still.

I know Him both ways.I love Him still.

me too

and.
i like that song that says "Hail Hail Lion of Judah. How powerful you are."
it's one of my favorites.

i love when people find contradictions, and when they try to prove them, they contradict themselves....

i love when people find contradictions, and when they try to prove them, they contradict themselves

Yes, in this instance this atheist basically wanted to show how awful and cruel God is and not worthy of our worship. It's funny how he never mentioned the love and mercy of God but only the wrath of God. God is both.

Most of the time tho, people make accusations against the bible saying it's full of contradictions but they never produce anything. Usually it's just something they have heard and repeated never checking for themselves. Satan is seen in scripture as the "accuser." He's still up to his old bag of tricks.....why? Cuz they still work. Just shows....there is nothing new under the sun.

Hi KFC, thanks for your reply. It’s interesting to hear your views about this topic. I think it's a significant one.

He is consistent with His holy nature and jealousy for his people.

I think that we belittle God if we believe that God is a jealous type. Jealousy, like insecurity, is a human weakness, which is overcome by cultivating a greater sense of self-worth and inner security. To me, belief in a jealous, insecure God, who loves conditionally, is a misguided belief, and has nothing to do with ultimate reality.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword."

I believe that Jesus came as a sword against worldly standards, (i.e. against our world of ego). The world’s standards are different to the standards of the Heavenly world, of which Jesus is supreme head. (Remember when Pilate asked Jesus “Are you a King?”, Jesus replied, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” - John 18.33-36). Although from a worldly point of view, attributes such as humility, compassion, meekness, patience etc. may be forms of weakness, from Heaven’s point of view they are attributes of godliness and strength.

Principles of ‘might is right’, ‘survival of the fittest’ and ‘ego-power’ are strengths, but only in context with the world. In truth, it is counterfeit power. Spiritual wealth, such as compassion, patience, forgiveness and humility is authentic power. Divine, unconditional love is the ultimate power.

Only when they continually refuse does he judge and punish them for their wicked deeds.

This contradicts Jesus’ words to “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

And what about verses such as those in which God ordered a man to be put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), or when He encouraged parents to stone their sons to death for being drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18)?

I believe that the Bible is the ‘map’, rather than the territory. In my opinion, verses which describe God as a jealous tyrant are inaccurate parts of the map, coloured by man, rather than by God. Even though parts of the Bible might seem to portray an inaccurate map, its substantial body contains a wealth of wisdom, insight and meaningful literature, all of which formulate a stark revelation of the Truth.

How can we know which verses represent an accurate part of the map and which verses don’t? I believe the key is to align such verses with the compassionate capacities of our heart. What does our heart have to say? Rest assured, the compass within our heart will lead us to know that "God is love".

True wisdom, sponsored by the soul, would agree with verses like the following:

“I have the strength to face all conditions by the power that Christ gives me.” (Philippians 4.13)

“Fear not, for I am with you.” (Isaiah 41.10)

“Dear friends, let us love one another, because love comes from God.” (1 John 4.7)

“Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

“For the Kingdom is not a matter of words, but of power. Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in a spirit of love and gentleness?” (1 Corinthians 4.20)

“There is a season and a time for every purpose under Heaven.” (Ecclesiastes 3.1)

“God is love” (1 John 4.16)

etc. etc.

It is true that only a small percentage of the Bible expresses negative, spiritually bankrupt principles. Rest assured, this small percentage is coloured by man, not God.

We should remember that love is spiritual wealth. Even though many human beings are somewhat bankrupt in the spiritual department, God has an infinite supply of it. Love is ‘for-giving’, and God would never tire of showing love, forgiveness or patience to His children. By definition, God is infinitely secure, and to me, it makes no sense to claim that God possesses character weaknesses like jealousy, insecurity, or tyrannical tendencies.

Incidentally, it’s within the human potential to accumulate enough spiritual wealth in order to love unconditionally. We don’t have to feel hurt, jealous, or insecure if other people don’t give it back, or if they treat us unfairly or badly. It all depends on how well developed our inner muscles are, and how much spiritual wealth we have accumulated on our journey so far.

I think that overall, we can afford some healthy breathing space from extreme Scriptural fundamentalism. I don’t believe that the Bible is infallible. But I have great respect for people who believe that it is, and I think we should believe whatever we feel is right.

True wisdom, sponsored by the soul, would agree with verses like the following ...

Just wanted to add that I think that 1 Corinthians 2.6-16 is one of the most profound passages in the Bible. It also expresses that there's a difference between worldly wisdom and spiritual wisdom.

This passage is great too: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
- 1 Corinthians 13.12

There's so much nutritious fodder in the Bible, it's wonderful. To keep quoting it will just get boring, so I'd better refrain.

Quite simply, God is unknowable to mortal man. We do not have the capacity to know him as we know our parents or children. Having said that, we attempt to assign human qualities to him so we can then bring some understanding. And we fail. The Bible is one such instrument. God did not write it, and even if one accepts it was devinely inspired, we are still left with assigning Human terms to that which we cannot begin to describe. So errors are going to be made. Perhaps not from man's perspective, but definitely from God's.

Quite simply, God is unknowable to mortal man. We do not have the capacity to know him as we know our parents or children. Having said that, we attempt to assign human qualities to him so we can then bring some understanding. And we fail. The Bible is one such instrument. God did not write it, and even if one accepts it was devinely inspired, we are still left with assigning Human terms to that which we cannot begin to describe. So errors are going to be made. Perhaps not from man's perspective, but definitely from God's.

I agree with you Dr. Guy. God's infinite Being, as a totality, cannot be comprehended by our finite minds. But I think that we are still able to understand the basics of His divine nature. In my opinion, claims that God is loving, graceful and forgiving, are more aligned with Truth than claims that God is jealous, tyrannical and angry.

God is a God of justice and the wickedness of certain nations could not go unchecked and condoned. Therefore he did call for destruction of certain nations.

but what kind of justice orders babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16)? I'm sure verses like this don't reflect the nature of our loving Father in Heaven. They are coloured by man's weaknesses and jealousies, for sure.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit will show us the right way, and we haven't been left without a Comforter.

I think that we belittle God if we believe that God is a jealous type. Jealousy, like insecurity, is a human weakness, which is overcome by cultivating a greater sense of self-worth and inner security. To me, belief in a jealous, insecure God, who loves conditionally, is a misguided belief, and has nothing to do with ultimate reality.

God says himself he is a jealous God. Here's an example...."You shall not bow down yourself to them nor serve them for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God......Deut 5:9. Also check Ex 20:5, 34:14, Deut 4:24, 6:15 etc.

There is such a thing as a Godly jealousy. It's not like human jealousy.

Our emotions are driven by self. God is driven by love for us. Since when are we jealous for someone ele's good?

Paul mentions this as well . "For I am jealous over you with Godly jealousy. for I have espoused you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." 2 Cor 11:2.

This contradicts Jesus’ words to “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

Not really. When the bible seems to us to be contradictory....it's usually our understanding. The answers are in there. It reconciles very nicely. Here Jesus is telling us that we are to treat our enemies with respect. Our being kind, loving, respectful even to our enemies brings glory to God. When asked....and this does get noticed., we can tell them it's not us but we are doing what Christ wants us to do. That's being salt and light. I believe that's why we are on earth. First to find God and then to bring him glory. Some never find him. Some are not very good once they do find him to bring Glory to Him.

Also in Romans we're told NOT to take vengeance. It's God's job. He wants us to love and be kind.......so no contradiction here. It's only God who is to take matters into his hands not us. He's also talking individual vs corporate. As we go out into the world....a Christian should be known as a person of peace.....not war. But that doesn't mean there is not such a thing as a "just war." Remember all the talk about this when we went to Iraq in the beginning? Romans 13:1-2 gives insight here.

God also says that the Kings and Rulers are put in their places by God himself....."By me Kings reign and princes decree justice. By me princes rule and nobles, even all the judges of the earth." Prov 8:15-16

How can we know which verses represent an accurate part of the map and which verses don’t

I would say the bible is like a giant puzzle that gets put together. All the pieces fit. You just have to be patient and work it out. I can assure you that there is not one piece in the bible that should not be there. It fits perfectly. I'm still working on it but am finding pieces almost every day. It's awesome when another piece gets fitted in. The more you read, the more you find.

Just wanted to add that I think that 1 Corinthians 2.6-16 is one of the most profound passages in the Bible. It also expresses that there's a difference between worldly wisdom and spiritual wisdom.

Yes very nice. This section has tons of stuff in it. But basically saying that the wisdom of man cannot save us. It's only by the spirit of God can a man understand God and he does reveal himself to us . This is done by revelation, illumination and inspiration.

I don’t believe that the Bible is infallible. But I have great respect for people who believe that it is,

*smile* always the diplomat Andy. Yes that would be me. But I'd like to ask.....why don't you believe this?

You are very unllike the author of the book you sent me an excerpt from. There he was all about God's hate and wrath and here you are all about God's love. You two should get together to balance each other out. God is both one to be feared and one to be loved. I guess it depends which side of the fence you're standing on.

God is unknowable to mortal man

Hmmmm Knowing about God is different than Knowing God. It's like reading a book about marriage and knowing about it vs being married and experiencing it.

We can't "know" God completely, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's unknowable to us. Jesus said..."You see me , you see the Father." . We see thru the glass darkly. But he has given us a glimpse of himself in Christ. God is Spirit. Christ is God cloaked in human flesh. Peter said ....."Grow in Grace and Knowledge of our Lord.....to him be Glory for now and forever. 2 Peter 3:18.

Remember Jesus came so that we could know God and come to the saving knowledge of the truth. But like I said to Andy it's only by the HS can this happen. Jesus said this: "All things are delivered of me by my father and no man knows who the Son is but the father and who the father is but the son and he to whom the Son will reveal him." Luke 10:22

God did not write it, and even if one accepts it was devinely inspired, we are still left with assigning Human terms to that which we cannot begin to describe. So errors are going to be made

Well God didn't pick up the pen but I do believe he "wrote it. Peter says "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the HS. 2 Peter 1:20.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit will show us the right way, and we haven't been left without a Comforter

This deserves a big......AMEN!!

Hmmmm Knowing about God is different than Knowing God. It's like reading a book about marriage and knowing about it vs being married and experiencing it.

My point exactly. 

This deserves a big......AMEN!!

AMEN!!

I don’t believe that the Bible is infallible. But I have great respect for people who believe that it is,

I'd like to ask.....why don't you believe this?

Some of the ugly and negative verses in the Bible don’t quite square up with the God that I’ve got to know and love in my heart, KFC. I’ve also found that most of the ‘jealous God’ type verses in the Bible reflect too much human pettishness, rather than the divine qualities of God.

would say the bible is like a giant puzzle that gets put together. All the pieces fit.

That depends on your point of view. From what I can see there’s a few pieces that don’t fit. But I accept that we all see things through different lenses, and we’re not all going to agree.

God says himself he is a jealous God. Here's an example...."You shall not bow down yourself to them nor serve them for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God......Deut 5:9. Also check Ex 20:5, 34:14, Deut 4:24, 6:15 etc.

That’s circular reasoning sweetheart. I believe that some of the Bible has been influenced by man’s input, including verses that describe God as jealous, tyrannical or insecure. Fundamentalism is a good thing for the younger souls, but I think I've had my fill of it in the past. I find it too suffocating now, but that's just me. It clearly suits you KFC, and you ought to stick with it babe. God has ways of reaching everybody and suiting everyone's tastes, and that's all part of His infallibility.

Having said that, we attempt to assign human qualities to him so we can then bring some understanding.

Anthropomorphism. I knew I'd get a chance to use that word again! ROFL

Well God didn't pick up the pen but I do believe he "wrote it. Peter says "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the HS. 2 Peter 1:20.

Amen!

Fundamentalism is a good thing for the younger souls, but I think I've had my fill of it in the past. I find it too suffocating now, but that's just me. It clearly suits you KFC, and you ought to stick with it babe. God has ways of reaching everybody and suiting everyone's tastes, and that's all part of His infallibility.

My... how very generous (and condescending) of you, Andy! ... I imagine you patting KFC on the head and sending her along her way like a "good little girl" with this comment. Forget that the last sentence of this particular riff makes God not "infallible" but "inconsistent." When God says there is one way, He means that there is one way. You can choose to believe whatever you like... that doesn't change the truth of His Word.

Speaking as a "younger soul," I'll stick with the God who has proved Himself to me over and over... by being consistent with His Word, and by revealing His hand in my life in ways that I simply cannot ignore or brush off as coincidence. I love that my Lord is big enough to be sovereign over the universe and yet personal enough to attend to my seemingly insignificant needs. I love the God of the Bible. My God.

Relativism may be very comfortable for some... even comforting, but that doesn't make it accurate, and it will be of small comfort in the end. There IS such a thing as truth, and knowing the Truth is what sets you free.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8)

Can you say "relativism"? The truth is that God is gracious, compassionate, slow in anger, abounding in love... but also that He is just and righteous, and those aspects of His nature demand a penalty for sin. That's the wonder of God... that the justice of God sees what I've done... all my sin... but His mercy sees me through the Son and His death on the cross. He paid my debt and wrote "paid in full" with His blood. That's what it's all about... and the beauty of my salvation. The two mesh perfectly into the deepest love I have ever known.

I have no problem whatsoever reconciling a God of justice with a God of love. It's a perfect fit.

Apologies if I sounded condescending, HC. I'm sure I ought to just remain quiet, or leave, at times. But I enjoy chatting about it, and I find KFC very endearing to be honest (there I go again!) But hey, I'm just telling it the way it is from my own point of view. I promise there's no ego playing around here.

When God says there is one way, He means that there is one way.

The way that we believe is "right" depends on which Holy Book we adhere to, as long as we approach the issue from a fundamentalist point of view. If a Christian fundamentalist had been born into a loving Muslim household, then as sure anything they would now be preaching the Qur'an, and wouldn't give a hoot about what the Bible says.

I think the trouble with fundamentalism is that it turns a blind eye to large chunks of reality, (for example, to other religious beliefs and views; to the size and age of the universe etc). Yet because of the nature of fundamentalism, which is like a little bubble world, circular reasoning abounds, so by definition, the blind spots are perpetuated by fundamentalism's narrow scope. I don't find this irritating, mind. I just find it endering and intriguing.

I have no problem whatsoever reconciling a God of justice with a God of love. It's a perfect fit.

I can’t see the fit between some of the verses, and especially not with my experience of God. What are your views about the verses mentioned earlier? Other people don't seem to want to engage with them, and I'm interested to hear other people's views, especially from within the fundamentalist camp.

God encouraged parents to stone their sons to death if they are drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18); said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10); demanded mass exterminations (Exodus 32:27, Exodus 20:5 and many other verses), ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide etc etc. etc.

But these verses aren't the only reason why I don't believe the Bible is infallible. The concept of an infallible Word of God is all part and parcel of the fundamentalist mindset, which I don't adhere to (for reasons that I'll keep to myself this time.)

My... how very generous (and condescending) of you, Andy!

It's all a healthy discussion at the end of the day, HC, so no harm done I hope.

I can see that silence would have been better than those last 2 posts of mine. It's all too condescending and I'm just churning out the same old stuff. But we're all in the same boat down here on earth, and there's room for growth for us all

I'd still love to hear others views on this topic though

God encouraged parents to stone their sons to death if they are drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18); said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10); demanded mass exterminations (Exodus 32:27, Exodus 20:5 and many other verses), ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide etc etc. etc

I thought I answered this in the piece I just wrote here. While I didn't use every verse you gave me I used many of them and basically it all came down to rebellion.

There is nothing in Jewish history that shows that parents stoned their children...so take a deep breath here Andy. If you read the passage on that you will see the parents if they had an issue would bring the son to the elders. The elders (wise Godly men) would be the ones to carry out the sentence if need be. This was more of a strong statement from God saying how much he detests rebellion. It started right in the garden with Adam and Eve.

The reason why God didn't put up with these high handed clenched fists in the face of God was because He had called the Jews to be light and salt to the heathen world around them. They were to represent Him and they were not doing so. In order to bring others to God we have to show them God in us. They were behaving like the heathen and worshipping other gods and constantly rebelling and that's not a good thing.

It may sound funny but the reason we see the wrath of God is because of love. He knew that leaving them to revile in their sin would only be the death of the nation and to all that were watching from the outside. Leaven is a picture of sin. Why? Because like leaven, sin grows and spreads. It has to be stopped before it takes over completely.

If you look in Acts 5 you see this same principle played out in the story of Ananias and Sapphira his wife. This was the beginning of the church. Both were taken out before what they did corrupt the brand new baby church.

It may sound funny but the reason we see the wrath of God is because of love

People can't accept it from God but they have no problem accepting it from lesser beings like humans.

My kids see my "wrath" they see my judgment of their actions. They also see my love. And I do those things because I love them.

I don't understand what is so hard to reconcile. If mere mortals can do these things for their children, how much more can we expect of a Holy God?

Apologies if I sounded condescending, HC. I'm sure I ought to just remain quiet, or leave, at times. But I enjoy chatting about it, and I find KFC very endearing to be honest (there I go again!) But hey, I'm just telling it the way it is from my own point of view. I promise there's no ego playing around here.

I have no doubts that KFC can hold her own, and I happen to know that she enjoys a good debate as much (if not moreso) than the next guy... no worries. It was specifically "young souls" in regards to fundies that I found to be a bit over the top. I'm not upset or offended... just chuckling.

Only when they continually refuse does he judge and punish them for their wicked deeds.

This contradicts Jesus’ words to “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

Actually, it doesn't. Jesus told US to love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us and pray for those who ill-treat us. What God is sovereign to do Himself is an entirely different scenario. I am not God and I do not have the right to put myself in His place.

And what about verses such as those in which God ordered a man to be put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), or when He encouraged parents to stone their sons to death for being drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18)?

Before Christ came, man had an obligation to fulfill the law. Christ came and He was the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 8

Free from Indwelling Sin

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law could point out sin... it had the power to condemn... but it was powerless to save. Galatians tells us that we are freed from having to keep the law...

Galatians 4

1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through Christ.

Why go back to that?

All that said, salvation is -- and has always been -- through faith. If there were such a thing as the center of eternity, the cross of Christ would be it. All of the OT looks forward to it and believed in the Messiah to come... all of eternity present looks back toward it. Christ's death did it all. It is finished.

As for Hoseah, as KFC said... it's all about context.

"Samaria is held guilty. For she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword. Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child ripped open." This chapter is about the judgment of wayward Israel. The next speaks of her eventual restoration. Samaria was the capital city and the driving force behind the northern Kingdom's rebellion. God was perfectly just in meting out this punishment. Rather than try tear apart the Scripture by choosing to see inconsistencies, why not be grateful that God saved any at all? Not one of us is righteous.. not one. Not one of us seeks after God... not one. HE, in His infinite mercy and love, seeks out US and saves us. Instead of labeling Him inconsistent or unfair because He acted in a way that I am uncomfortable with, I choose to be thankful that He doesn't choose to deal the same with me. He certainly would be within His rights to if He so chose.

CS Lewis has a great passage in one of his Narnia books that I love... I posted about it on OleTeach's blog... Link

Young Jill comes upon a stream and is incredibly thirsty. She approaches the stream to drink, but stops dead in her tracks when she sees the frightening lion Aslan next to the stream...

The Lion said to her, "Are you not thirsty?""I'm dying of thirst," said Jill. "Then drink," said the lion. "May I-could I-would you mind going away while I do," said Jill. The Lion answered this only by a look and a very low growl. And, as Jill gazed at its smooth motionless bulk, she realized she might as well have asked the whole mountain to move aside for her convenience. The delicious rippling noise of the stream was driving her nearly frantic. "Will you promise not to-do anything to me, if I do come?" said Jill. "I make no promises," said the lion. Jill was so thirsty now that, without noticing it, she had come a step nearer. "Do you eat girls?" she said. "I have swallowed up girls and boys, women and men, kings and emperors, cities and realms," said the lion. It didn't say this as if it were boasting, nor as if it were sorry, nor as if it were angry, it just said it. "I dare not come and drink," said Jill. "Then you will die of thirst," said the lion. "Oh dear!" said Jill, coming another step nearer. "I suppose I must go and look for another stream then." "There is no other stream," said the lion.

Wow. How I can relate to that! My desire is to grow ever closer to the Lord... to really come to know Him, but that means letting go and trusting Him, wherever He may take me. I've learned from past experience that the path isn't always easy. He makes no promises that it will be a nice level walk... in fact, reality has been filled with caverns to trudge through and mountains to scale... but the joy of knowing that each step has brought me closer to Him far surpasses the fear. The cry of my heart is to follow Him and know Him more and more... this surprising, all powerful, dangerous, mysterious God. The God who doesn't eliminate my struggles, but meets me right in the thick of them and sustains me through them... to dare to come closer to Him and allow Him to have His way with me. Yeah... that's what I want.

I know from past experience that it can be a dangerous thing to ask for. I once asked God to refine me and two weeks later I nearly lost my four-year-old daughter. Did God bring that trial into my life on purpose to fulfill my wish? I don't know.. not necessarily. What I do know is that He used it to accomplish my heart's cry... to be made more like Him. I grew so much during that time of testing. I could just have easily have blamed God for the fire... taken Him to task and demanded answers... turned my back on Him for being "unjust". I certainly didn't think I'd done anything to deserve that pain and suffering... and I know my daughter didn't. At least not anything specific, aside from general sin. But I didn't see it that way. Each step of the way I saw the hand of a loving God guiding us through... He didn't take away my crisis, but He walked with me and held my hand as I muddled through. I'd like to think that even if she had died, I would have ascribed glory to His name and given Him praise. I can't know that I would have done that for sure... since it didn't happen that way... but I know that I trust God. Implicitly. Without reservation. With my life... and even with my chidren's lives.

I don't get to know all the answers. People say, "When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask God about this..." Ya know what? I don't think I'm going to CARE. I think I'll be so enthralled with being in His presence that all those nagging questions will fade in the light of His glory. I may never have the answers to the things I wonder about now. I'm ok with that. To some extent, it's what faith is about. All I can do is keep on keeping on... keep studying... keep walking with my God. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. I guess that's how each of us must come to decide.

Didn't mean to jump all over you, Andy. Sorry if it seemed that way.

Enjoy your debate

People can't accept it from God but they have no problem accepting it from lesser beings like humans. My kids see my "wrath" they see my judgment of their actions. They also see my love. And I do those things because I love them. I don't understand what is so hard to reconcile. If mere mortals can do these things for their children, how much more can we expect of a Holy God?

Excellent analysis! You go, girl

I surrender! I admit that I've been walked all over. You've got good substance and a clear model of the world, and I do love that. God bless you guys,

God bless you guys

Back at ya, darlin! Always a pleasure discussing. ><

That's an HC hug *g*

Andy

I love discussing with ya....don't ever be worried about exposing your views to me. I love to share and give my reasons for what I believe in. And we (I speak for HC as well) have no intention of walking over anyone. We want to walk arm and arm with you to the other side of eternity.

Thanks HC for your comments as well......been having some technical difficulties here......gotta get my computer fixed~~

That's an HC hug *g*

We want to walk arm and arm with you to the other side of eternity.

Thanks so much for that. That’s very sweet of you. Big hugs to you back!!

I've learned from past experience that the path isn't always easy. He makes no promises that it will be a nice level walk... in fact, reality has been filled with caverns to trudge through and mountains to scale... but the joy of knowing that each step has brought me closer to Him far surpasses the fear. The cry of my heart is to follow Him and know Him more and more... this surprising, all powerful, dangerous, mysterious God. The God who doesn't eliminate my struggles, but meets me right in the thick of them and sustains me through them... to dare to come closer to Him and allow Him to have His way with me. Yeah... that's what I want. I know from past experience that it can be a dangerous thing to ask for. I once asked God to refine me and two weeks later I nearly lost my four-year-old daughter. Did God bring that trial into my life on purpose to fulfill my wish? I don't know.. not necessarily. What I do know is that He used it to accomplish my heart's cry... to be made more like Him. I grew so much during that time of testing. I could just have easily have blamed God for the fire... taken Him to task and demanded answers... turned my back on Him for being "unjust". I certainly didn't think I'd done anything to deserve that pain and suffering... and I know my daughter didn't. At least not anything specific, aside from general sin. But I didn't see it that way. Each step of the way I saw the hand of a loving God guiding us through... He didn't take away my crisis, but He walked with me and held my hand as I muddled through. I'd like to think that even if she had died, I would have ascribed glory to His name and given Him praise. I can't know that I would have done that for sure... since it didn't happen that way... but I know that I trust God. Implicitly. Without reservation. With my life... and even with my chidren's lives. I don't get to know all the answers. People say, "When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask God about this..." Ya know what? I don't think I'm going to CARE. I think I'll be so enthralled with being in His presence that all those nagging questions will fade in the light of His glory. I may never have the answers to the things I wonder about now. I'm ok with that. To some extent, it's what faith is about. All I can do is keep on keeping on... keep studying... keep walking with my God. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. I guess that's how each of us must come to decide.

HC, that’s a powerful testimony. I completely agree with you that tribulation makes the soul stronger if we’ve got a wise attitude.

I believe that the world’s negativities are not forms of punishment, or wrath, but rather compassionate opportunities, created in love, to advance spiritual strength and maturity. We all have a cross to bear in some form or other, to be used for the ongoing development of our soul. The greater the challenge, the greater potential for spiritual advancement.

This is why I disagree with the Bible’s view that God “punishes” people with grim things in life. The Biblical model of the world that you described is sound and cohesive in itself, according to your interpretation of God’s love, but I personally believe that there’s a larger sphere of reality outside the Biblical worldview.

I believe that there's a loving, higher purpose to everything, and at the end of the day a greater good arises because of our hardships, rather than in spite of them. Certain circumstances in life can discipline the soul, for sure, but I don’t believe that God punishes in the way that the fundies would have us believe. I also don’t believe that non-Christians will perish in hellfire for all eternity. I’m sure that all religions are in touch with exactly the same God, only from a different perspective and cultural context. I believe that the universe is a lot bigger and older than a literal interpretation of Biblical doctrine would have us believe too.

These views are outside the traditional fundamentalist scope, yet I would feel too untrue to myself and to God to believe otherwise. What are you views regarding other religions, and people who live lives adhering to (and finding peace in) non-Christian religious views?

"Samaria is held guilty. For she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword. Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child ripped open." This chapter is about the judgment of wayward Israel. The next speaks of her eventual restoration. Samaria was the capital city and the driving force behind the northern Kingdom's rebellion. God was perfectly just in meting out this punishment. Rather than try tear apart the Scripture by choosing to see inconsistencies, why not be grateful that God saved any at all? Not one of us is righteous.. not one. Not one of us seeks after God... not one. HE, in His infinite mercy and love, seeks out US and saves us. Instead of labeling Him inconsistent or unfair because He acted in a way that I am uncomfortable with, I choose to be thankful that He doesn't choose to deal the same with me. He certainly would be within His rights to if He so chose.

I can see your logic, and as you said it fits well with the Biblical worldview. In my own view, it's not wholly aligned with ‘reality’, though. If we believe that God punishes in such ways then we’d probably conclude that the tsunami, or the earthquakes of last year, were deliberate acts of God in order to punish people and release His wrath on them for their wrongdoing, or for worshipping different gods. But I don’t believe that this was the case. I’m sure many people who died in those events were good hearted Christians who lived normal, peaceful lives in Christ.

Relativism may be very comfortable for some... even comforting, but that doesn't make it accurate, and it will be of small comfort in the end. There IS such a thing as truth, and knowing the Truth is what sets you free.

Everything is relative (including all our views), except for God, the Absolute. I believe that our "knowing God" is our glimpsing the Truth.

Anyway, I know that these can be heavy issues. But I’m just saying why I need breathing space from extreme Biblical leanings.

That's ok Andy.....we still love ya.............