When Air Marshals Attack!

Zero Tolerance sure applies here

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051208/ts_nm/security_plane_dc
from JoeUser Forums
I was tempted to put 'Zero Tolerance' in the title rather than the subtitle so I could get more looks, but I held back.

U.S. air marshals on Wednesday shot and killed an American Airlines passenger who claimed to be carrying a bomb in his backpack at Miami International Airport. He was disembarking from a flight that had just arrived at Miami from Medellin, Colombia.

Let me get this straight: a man who had just landed in America starts breaking for the door, pushing through the crowd in the aisle. They are trying to get their carry-on bags from their overhead compartments, and he's shouting he has a bomb and making for the door. Not a good situation.

Complicating things, the flight just came from Medellin, Colombia. Pablo Escobar's homies are from there; not the most secure place in the western hemisphere, that's for sure. Medellin Cartel link No assurance that the baggage or the passengers had been properly inspected before departure. No assurance of much of anything, since the plane was coming from abroad, to be honest. There are several airports in the world where lax to no security checks take place, especially to the American standard. If we can't find everyone (see 9/11), then how can we expect every little podunk third-world backwater airport to inspect shoes?

So the guy decides that he doesn't want to play nice with the air marshals. From Reuters:
"Many details of the shooting remain confused, but officials in Washington said the man tried to flee, ignored an order to put his bag on the ground and was shot on the passenger gangway.
"The passenger then reached into his carry-on bag, at which point, consistent with air marshal training, the air marshals took the appropriate actions. Shots were fired as the team attempted to subdue the subject," said a Department of Homeland Security spokesman."

No kidding they shot him! He was clearly disobeying their instructions and reaching into his bag. For all the air marshals knew, he had a detonator in there. They acted in order to save the 300 people on the flight, as well as many other hundreds in the terminal.

All I can say is NICE JOB, AIR MARSHALS!
6,674 views 31 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

You should have put Zero Tolerance in the title!

Guess some parts of Homeland Security are working correctly.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
::: Mental note ::: next time I'm flying from Colombia, and inadvertantly talk about the bomb in my bag... and make a break for the door... and dudes with guns and badges tell me to stop... it might be a good career move for me to comply.

Thanks for the tip, Singr! ;~D
ObjectDock - Access shortcuts and frequently used applications from an animated dock.
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
::: Mental note ::: next time I'm flying from Colombia, and inadvertantly talk about the bomb in my bag... and make a break for the door... and dudes with guns and badges tell me to stop... it might be a good career move for me to comply.

Thanks for the tip, Singr! ;~D




HAHA....too funny

I am actually shocked (well, maybe not...I guess I should have realized nutcases would be doing this) that some ppl are actually defending the guy that got shot. I have heard some ppl say that the marshals acted too abruptly and over-reacted....

Good Lord....this is why I generally hate people
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Those who spout off stuff like "excessive force" or claim the marshals over-reacted need to be smacked upside the head. If someone says they have a bomb and start running, no one has time to sit down, think about what the guy's motivations may be, to do a background check to make sure he's not just some crazy fool having an "episode" or to try and talk him down.

Man says he has bomb. Man runs from officials. Man is downed (but not killed). Man reaches into bag where he says he has bomb while he's on the ground after being told to stop moving. Man is shot lethally to save the the multitude of people nearby.

We can't take the chance and not shoot to kill... because what if he isn't bluffing? We have no way of knowing. If we try and call the bluff and he has a bomb, that's a huge disaster.

The air marshals did their job well, and while the results were unfortunate, I wouldn't have wanted them acting any other way.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is such a tragedy. The man was bipolar and off of his medication. I don't think he was going to harm anyone but I know that the air marshalls didn't have that information at the time and had to use their best judgement in the situation.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
True Locamama, it is a tragedy. For him, for the air marshals who had to shoot and now have to live with the second guessing, for his wife who apparently had to witness the whole thing. Sadly, there are no winners in this situation, just a dead man and a group of people who have to live with it.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Man says he has bomb. Man runs from officials. Man is downed (but not killed). Man reaches into bag where he says he has bomb while he's on the ground after being told to stop moving. Man is shot lethally to save the the multitude of people nearby.

Yes, what's the logical next step? You know, after he reaches for his bag that he's already claimed has a bomb in it.

The man was bipolar and off of his medication.... the air marshalls didn't have that information at the time and had to use their best judgement in the situation.

some ppl say that the marshals acted too abruptly and over-reacted....

They are trained to use their judgment. How exactly were they to know his true intentions? And certainly, how were they to know he was mentally ill. Presented with the information at the time, their actions were totally justified. Hindsight being 20/20, we now know he was not a threat. But I applaud those marshals for making the call they did.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Zoomba
Posted: Thursday, December 08, 2005

What he said!  Very well put too!

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Glad you came to the conclusion you did. He shouldn't have been listed as a "passenger", but rather, as a "terror suspect".

It's a tragedy that he died, but as the spokesman said, when a law enforcement clears leather with their weapon, they HAVE to be prepared to use deadly force. Anything else could jeopardize their own lives and the lives of innocents.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I know! I'll maximize my psychotic tendencies, and then go into a crowded room with serious security considerations and armed guards! What could possibly go wrong?!

My husband is maximizing his psychotic tendencies. Let's go hang out with a bunch of other people in a security-sensitive environment, with armed guards, for a while! Without warning anybody ahead of time! What could possibly go wrong?!

In other news: Crazy guy acts crazy, threatens lives, gets shot. Or, "what part of crazy do you not understand?"

This man's community, including his wife and himself, failed him miserably. The other passenger's community, including the Air Marshals charged with their safety, served them admirably.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gid:
He shouldn't have been listed as a "passenger", but rather, as a "terror suspect".


He was just a passenger, until he started screaming and made a bolt for the door. As for 'terror suspect', I think the MSM coverage is bearing out that he was suspected of carrying a bomb by his own admission.

Stute:
This man's community, including his wife and himself, failed him miserably.

Yep, but will the woman be crucified in the media for not making him take his meds? No, the hand-wringing will revolve around the use of deadly force in bringing down a man who in the eyes of the marshals was a 'terror suspect'!
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Just to put a different view on it... I heard that he was bypolar, and his wife was screaming that he was sick and hadn't taken his meds.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, Cdn, that is what was learned AFTER the fact. In the moment, the man had made a threat, he then acted as if he was carrying out that threat. That is what the Air Marshal had to go on... nothing more.

Saying you have a bomb IS a threat, not a misunderstanding.

I read that the two Air Marshals involved have been put on administrative leave pending an investigation. Both the leave and the investigation are appropriate. What I fear is that this incident will become "make or break" time for the Air Marshal program. If they are thrown to the wolves, how will that affect all the other Air Marshals reactions in the future? If it has a negative affect on the ability of Air Marshals to do their job, will the Air Marshal program be effective.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

I heard that he was bypolar, and his wife was screaming that he was sick and hadn't taken his meds.

So....would that always mean that he *didn't* have a bomb?  And, why should *anyone* be accountable for another person disobeying a Drs. orders?  It gets ridiculous.  Will this country ever get back to holding people accountable for their own actions?  This guy didn't take his medication.  His wife knew he didn't and still allowed him to fly.  He then goes crazy and the wife says "he's crazy!"  Now, I may be wrong here, but insane people have been known to kill other people.  Are people supposed to not take action because somebody has mental health issues?

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

What I fear is that this incident will become "make or break" time for the Air Marshal program. If they are thrown to the wolves, how will that affect all the other Air Marshals reactions in the future? If it has a negative affect on the ability of Air Marshals to do their job, will the Air Marshal program be effective.

That is what I am afraid of as well.

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm trying to follow the logic here...

-a guy is acting deranged, claiming to have a bomb.
-someone tells you that he is bi-polar, and off his medication.
-Oh! you say, no wonder. Of course a deranged person wouldn't have a bomb...

Maybe I am old-fashioned, but I consider most people with bombs to be deranged. Telling me that he is bi-polar and unmedicated doesn't make me less apt to shoot him, it makes me MORE apt to shoot him. The point isn't giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, it is the safety of the passengers on the plane.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
you'd almost have to be crazy to sneak a bomb onto a plane coming to the us from colombia (to try sneaking anything on such a plane for that matter) only to reveal you had it after landing and then run off the plane with it.

actually you'd have to be stupid as well.

btw...imagine you're a passenger on that flight with like 65 'pellets'--each containing about 4 gms of uncut cocaine--percolating in your digestive tract. the plane lands, you're bracin yourself to not attract any attention as you go thru customs and lookin forward outta the airport and get all that dope safely outta you...and then things suddenly go totally chaotic and you KNOW time is about to start really laggin bad.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm not going to start defending this guy like I did for Jean Charles de Menezes. There is a major difference between this guy and de Menezes. de Menezes never claimed to have a bomb, he was just acting normally. From what I heard, this guy claimed to have a bomb. They did what had to be done (unless some more stuff comes out later like it did in the de Menezes case).
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

Don't get me wrong, I feel badly for the guy and his family. I am sad that he died.
But you've gotta admit, he brought it on himself. You just can't do what he did where he did it and expect to live.

To be honest when I first saw the news broadcast, I thought it might have been a suicidal guy who wanted to go out in a blaze.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yea just shoot, and shoot him again to make sure hes dead. "Shoot to kill", that's prob. how those Marshals get trained.
How about immobilizing.... especially when a woman is screaming "don't shoot, hes ill". To much stress for the Marshal?
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply By: Rabbit(Anonymous User)


Too bad you weren't on the plane, buddy. Trolling fool.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

Yea just shoot, and shoot him again to make sure hes dead. "Shoot to kill", that's prob. how those Marshals get trained.
How about immobilizing.... especially when a woman is screaming "don't shoot, hes ill". To much stress for the Marshal?

Real life is not a hollywood movie.  They miss, he blows up 50 or more people, and you would be crowing about how incompetant they are.

next time you are being robbed, call a crook.  The police are not up to your perfect standards. Idiot.

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Yea just shoot, and shoot him again to make sure hes dead. "Shoot to kill", that's prob. how those Marshals get trained.
How about immobilizing.... especially when a woman is screaming "don't shoot, hes ill". To much stress for the Marshal?"


note to self... next time I want to do something illegal, take a woman with me to scream "HE FORGOT TO TAKE HIS MEDS"...
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's about time the government realized it's duty by including undercover combat trained marshals on various flights with a license to shoot if needed. However, the downside is due to the immediate demand of such skills, they don't receive nearly enough close quarter firing of their .45's in pressure sensitive cabins. We can only hope that all confrontations are before cabin pressurization or after depressurization. Hostage negotiation skills would be an added benefit but all to often the scenario will escalate at such an extreme pace, such skills will likely fall on someone's dead ears within seconds.

As I understand it, the man shot was off his med's, making his behavior iritic and uncontrollable from a distance. Under such circumstances, we can't in our remotest dreams expect a Marshall to exercise precognitive behavior assessment skills and react as needed in those seconds. It's sad that he died under such circumstances. But, it's a good way for a schizophrenic having a lucid moment to commit suicide knowing that under similar circumstances in other public places, shooting isn't likely any longer.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
We can only hope that all confrontations are before cabin pressurization or after depressurization. Hostage negotiation skills would be an added benefit but all to often the scenario will escalate at such an extreme pace, such skills will likely fall on someone's dead ears within seconds.


Air marshalls carry special weapons designed not to penetrate the hull of the aircraft.