Catholic Misconceptions III - Idol Worship

I recently came across a remark that accused Catholics of Worshiping the Statue of Mary.  And before my brain engaged to stop my fingers from flying, I blasted that remark.  And yes, I acted in haste and repent in leisure.  So first, I would like to apologize to the target of my wrath.  I should not have posted that reply.

But it also gave me my third article in my series.  Praying to statues.  Or as some think, praying to someone other than God and Jesus.  Catholics do neither.

The statues we see in most Catholic churches are a part of a tradition started in the middle ages when Artisans, for want of a meal ticket, often worked for the Church.  So Michaelangelo painted the Sistine chapel, created the statue of David, along with many other works.  Because the Church paid.  And that tradition has been handed down through the centuries as other churches wanted some of the beautiful works in their buildings (or on their buildings) as well.  Today, many churches have no statues at all.  And those that do, the statues are there for decorations, pertaining to the religion.  They are not worshiped.  They are adored, both for their art sake, and for who they represent.  But no knowledgeable Catholic worships them! (As I have stated before, many Catholics dont even know about their own religion - so some may actually worship them).

But do we pray to them - what they represent?  Do we pray to Mary, the Mother of Jesus?  Do we pray to the Saints? I guess that is the bigger misconception.

Catholics do not pray to the saints or Mary or any other revered figure in the Church.  What we do practice is to ask that Mary or a saint or saints pray for us.  For the thought is that many voices are louder than one (remember "It's a Wonderful Life"? The opening scene where everyone is praying for George Bailey?).  And in that, we do ask for their intercession for our prayers.

And indeed that is not unique to Catholicism. For almost every Christian denomination has a request for prayers for other people.  So everyone does it.  But one of the key differences is that Catholics not only ask the living to pray for us, but also those who have died.  And that may (or may not) be unique.

Someone, and I forget who, said they would rather ask the living to pray for them, not the dead.  And that is fine.  But let me pose a question.  If you are a true Christian, then you must believe that when you die, your soul does not die, and if you have lead a good and holy life, your soul ascends to heaven.  So you are in God's home then, right?  And you are truly not dead, but have life everlasting, right?

So why would you not ask those you know to be in heaven to pray for you?  Makes sense that God is more likely to listen to one who is with him than for one who may or may not be a good person (you never know about the living).

But how do we KNOW that a person is in heaven?  I am sure we have all buried a relative or friend and hope they are in heaven.  Maybe we even know it with all our heart.  For Catholics it is easy to know who is in Heaven.  Not all of those in heaven, or course!  But we do have an impressive list of names to call upon for we know they are in Heaven.  For every Saint, and yes, Mary the Mother of Jesus is one (although we dont call  her Saint Mary usually), are in Heaven!  Now many people who have never been beatified, are undoubtedly in Heaven as well.  I know my Grandmother is.  But she will never be made a saint (just not famous enough as it is a very long process).

So I could just as easily ask my Grandmother to pray for me, as I can Saint Jude, or Joseph.  And some do that very thing (as I am sure many other Christians ask their beloved relatives to pray for them). But more often, we ask the known saints to pray for us, adding to our prayers in the hopes that they will add their voice to ours and create a Cacophony like that one heard in the opening scene of It's a Wonderful Life.

That is really all there is to it.  No great mystery, no violation of the first amendment.  Just asking others, living and ascended, to add their voices to ours so that our prayers carry greater weight.

Really simple when you understand it.

10,111 views 90 replies
Reply #1 Top
I have been Catholic all my life and never heard a better description of why we offer our prayers to the saints, or more that we ask them to pray for us.

Great article
Reply #2 Top

I have been Catholic all my life and never heard a better description of why we offer our prayers to the saints, or more that we ask them to pray for us.

Thank you.  I enjoy writing these, not to try to convert anyone, but so that those who do not understand about Catholicism and grew up with some of the wrong stereotypes, can either understand it, or hate it for the right reason!

Reply #3 Top
hate it


This is something that I have never really understood. I have a relative that is Baptist and she regularly tells me I am going to hell for being Catholic. I am not even a practicing Catholic. I don't hate other religions. My beliefs are simply different.
Reply #4 Top

I have a relative that is Baptist and she regularly tells me I am going to hell for being Catholic.

I think most of it is due to the misconceptions.  If you saw a group of Christians (and you were very religious), who worshipped idols and thought their leader was perfect, you would probably think they were nut cases too!

Reply #5 Top
Have you ever read Luke 16 about the rich man and the begger?
Reply #6 Top
think most of it is due to the misconceptions. If you saw a group of Christians (and you were very religious), who worshipped idols and thought their leader was perfect, you would probably think they were nut cases too!


yup, you got that right..........in a NUTSHELL!!!

Have you ever read Luke 16 about the rich man and the begger? It's one of the best pictures we have of after life goings on from two different perspectives in scripture. One in hell and the other in heaven. Pretty interesting.
Reply #7 Top
Warning for jj...ignoramous entering the conversation...you may want to cover your eyes.

I don't know if your comment is directed towards me or not. ~shrugs~ *IF* it is, I don't recall saying anything about Catholics praying TO statues. I recall asking why the virgin Mary is so important to Catholics. If that makes me *ignorant* for asking a simple question, then so be it. I didn't know, so I asked.

I was under the obviously misguided assumption that Catholics prayed THROUGH the VM to get to Jesus/God. I've always believed that Jesus is the intercessor, not a saint or Mary, but of course, I come from a Protestant POV.

If you are a true Christian, then you must believe that when you die, your soul does not die, and if you have lead a good and holy life, your soul ascends to heaven.


I believe that if I choose to believe in Christ, and what He has done, that that faith changes my life, and makes me WANT to lead a good and holy life. I could be Hitler, or, and even more realistic case, Jeffrey Dahmer, who both did horrific things, and choose to have that faith in Christ, and I would still go to Heaven. I could be a fucktard for life, and on my death bed turn it all around, and still go to heaven. (Sorry...a little off topic).

So you are in God's home then, right? And you are truly not dead, but have life everlasting, right?


Yes. But I don't think that people up there are concerned with talking to God on our behalves. I think they're busy worshipping and praising, and not giving a rat's behind what happens down here. If souls in Heaven truly knew what happened down here, it wouldn't be Heaven for them. ~shrugs~ I don't understand the Catholic "sainting" system either.

I'm a dummy. I believe in a direct relationship with God. I don't believe I need a big, beautiful church with lots of pretty things to have that relationship. I believe the Bible says what it means and means what it says. I don't know alot about Catholocism because I don't have to, nor do I have the time right now to study it. My "version" of Christianity has been what I've needed. I see Catholocism as being complex, with lots of "extracurricular" standards and rules that I don't understand. That being said, I know that the Catholic faith touches more lives than any other sect out there, and that the Catholic faith does MUCH for people in need all around the world. I might not fully understand it, but I do respect it, for the most part.


Reply #8 Top

Have you ever read Luke 16 about the rich man and the begger?

yes.  I dont see how that relates, but then I am not a Biblical scholar.

Reply #9 Top

yup, you got that right..........in a NUTSHELL!!!

coming from you, that is indeed high praise!  Thank you!

Reply #10 Top

Warning for jj...fucktard entering the conversation...you may want to cover your eyes.

Please. leave the vulgarity on other blogs.  This is a discussion and not an accusation.

Reply #11 Top

don't know if your comment is directed towards me or not. ~shrugs~ *IF* it is, I don't recall saying anything about Catholics praying TO statues. I recall asking why the virgin Mary is so important to Catholics. If that makes me *ignorant* for asking a simple question, then so be it. I didn't know, so I asked.

Since you came, I will appologize formally.  I am sorry for my snap response.  You deserve better.

You did say it, and then an either or.  This is in response to your question.  Ignorance is not asking a question.  This is not the place for slurs.  Trust me.

Reply #12 Top
Since you came, I will appologize formally. I am sorry for my snap response. You deserve better.


Thanks for the apology. I still eat small children though.

Please. leave the vulgarity on other blogs. This is a discussion and not an accusation.


I apologize. Please feel free to remove it...or...wait...I will...because you can't.
Reply #13 Top
This was the direct quote:
.I don't know why that means that Catholics have to pray to her or through her or whatever.


I didn't say anything about statues.

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.

Amen.


See...to me...that is praying TO her asking her to pray FOR us. I don't get it. I never will get it. I think that Catholocism and my neurons are like oil and water.
Reply #14 Top

My "version" of Christianity has been what I've needed. I see Catholocism as being complex, with lots of "extracurricular" standards and rules that I don't understand.

And that is fine.  I am not here to convert you.  I am here to explain tha tthe 'extracurricular' is just that.  SOme like it, some dont.  I dont.  And if you have read my series you will see that while it is nice, it is not necessary,

I'm a dummy. I believe in a direct relationship with God. I don't believe I need a big, beautiful church with lots of pretty things to have that relationship

As do Catholics!  What have I said that makes you think we do not?  That we ask for help?  Have you not just recently asked for our prayers for a friend?  Is that not interfering with your direct relationship?  Please, Jesus does not tolerate pharisees, and if you are going to differentiate between you request for prayers and a Catholics request for intercession, what does that make you?  So we should abort our prayers to God because you asked for them?

 

Yes. But I don't think that people up there are concerned with talking to God on our behalves

Then perhaps you presume too much.  Should I presume to talk for you or your relatives?  Perhaps you need to stop being so myopic and start just listening to the message, not the medium.  I am sorry that you are so anti Catholic, especially since your stated religion is more Carholic now than the Catholics.

This is not a convert article.  It is "splain it lucy' One.  Perhaps since you are so antagonistic and defensive, it is you that needs to examine your beliefs.  I am just "splaining' mine.

Reply #15 Top

I apologize. Please feel free to remove it...or...wait...I will...because you can't.

No, I dont like to delete comments unless they are from anon trolls.  I will if you really want me to however.  But that is your call.

Reply #16 Top

See...to me...that is praying TO her asking her to pray FOR us. I don't get it. I never will get it. I think that Catholocism and my neurons are like oil and water.

Great!  Thank you !

No. Pray for us!  Not we pray to you!  Pray for us!  See?  We are asking her to PRAY FOR US!

We are asking her to pray for us and yes in our prayers, we ask her to pray with us!  Have you not done that with others?  That we do it with people in heave is no diferent.  They are with God!  SO we know their prayers are nearer to his ear (versus our friends that we just hope are).

See?

Reply #17 Top
Okay...since my think alouds are not welcome, I'll let you continue writing. Thanks for your thoughts.

No, I dont like to delete comments unless they are from anon trolls. I will if you really want me to however. But that is your call.


Its your blog.
Reply #18 Top

Its your blog.

And your thoughts.  That is what it is all about.

Your think alouds are always welcome.  Just make sure they are thinks.

Reply #19 Top
Ok I am pragmatic for the most part.

I don't pray and ask dead people to talk to God for me because they can't hear me. They can't see me either. I mean, would it be HEAVEN if you had to hear and see earth? I don't think so!

AND they are just dead PEOPLE not dead gods. They aren't omnipresent, they don't hear my inner prayers and thoughts, only God does. Jesus hears us because he is here and in heaven, they ain't.

So hows a dead person with no ears hearin me anyway?
Reply #20 Top
Then perhaps you presume too much. Should I presume to talk for you or your relatives? Perhaps you need to stop being so myopic and start just listening to the message, not the medium. I am sorry that you are so anti Catholic, especially since your stated religion is more Carholic now than the Catholics.

This is not a convert article. It is "splain it lucy' One. Perhaps since you are so antagonistic and defensive, it is you that needs to examine your beliefs. I am just "splaining' mine.


Antagonistic? Defensive? I think you're misinterpreting my tone. I *KNOW* my beliefs, I just don't understand Catholic ones. If that makes me unwelcome here, so be it. Just because I don't agree with your theology doesn't make me antagonistic or defensive. It means, simply, that I disagree. It doesn't mean that one form of this religion is better or worse than the other, it simply means they are different. You obviously missed this part:

I know that the Catholic faith touches more lives than any other sect out there, and that the Catholic faith does MUCH for people in need all around the world. I might not fully understand it, but I do respect it, for the most part.


What's the issue here? *I* said it, apparently, and my thoughts aren't as "lofty" as yours.
Reply #21 Top
WTG Tova....my sentiments exactly. I wanted to ask the Doc.....How did Jesus teach us to pray (Matt 6)? Also how did he show us an example himself praying (John 17)? I think it wise to follow HIS example and teaching directly.

Not quite sure how you can say you are not praying to Mary with the "Hail Mary Full of Grace" repition.......if you are talking to a dead person you are praying to them. There's really no getting around that one with a straight face. That's really what prayer is after all...talking to God.

You don't have to seek an intermediate outside of Christ....that's why the veil of the temple was torn (from top to bottom) at his death. Many priests became believers after they saw that. Direct access to God. Before that (in the OT) you had to go thru a priest to get to God. Much the same way you pray to Mary or go to a priest now. Only the priests were allowed on the other side of that veil. But now it's gone forever and our High Priest (Christ) always intercedes for us. What's not to like here?

yes. I dont see how that relates, but then I am not a Biblical scholar.


I was thinkin of this part:

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Reply #22 Top

AND they are just dead PEOPLE not dead gods.

No, they are not dead people, they are living souls.  And as they are with God, who are we to say what they can and cannot do?  Perhaps, since they were so good in life to earn the heavenly reward, they may want to continue doing good?  Perhaps that is their calling in life and afterlife?  We do believe that they may or may not aid us in prayers.  There is no guarantees.  But it cannot hurt to ask, now can it?

Reply #23 Top

WTG Tova....my sentiments exactly. I wanted to ask the Doc.....How did Jesus teach us to pray (Matt 6)? Also how did he show us an example himself praying (John 17)? I think it wise to follow HIS example and teaching directly.

I dont see how either relates.  They say pray not as the heathens do, and for the most part, Catholics dont.  We have some structured prayers, as do most all Christian Denominations, but those are used mostly in the rites and rituals, not in the daily prayers.  Just as they are in most other denominations.

Not quite sure how you can say you are not praying to Mary with the "Hail Mary Full of Grace" repition.......if you are talking to a dead person you are praying to them. There's really no getting around that one with a straight face. That's really what prayer is after all...talking to God.

You trap more flies with Honey than you do Vinegar.  Praising someone and then asking to pray for you is not praying to them.  And I dont agree that talking to a living soul is praying to them.  That appears to be your hangup.  That is the second time I have heard the term "dead person".  They are not dead people, they are living souls.

You don't have to seek an intermediate outside of Christ....that's why the veil of the temple was torn (from top to bottom) at his death. Many priests became believers after they saw that. Direct access to God. Before that (in the OT) you had to go thru a priest to get to God. Much the same way you pray to Mary or go to a priest now. Only the priests were allowed on the other side of that veil. But now it's gone forever and our High Priest (Christ) always intercedes for us. What's not to like here?

And we dont.  That was the whole point of this.  We dont need to, but it cannot hurt.  You dont need to ask others to pray for you in your hour of need, and yet almost every denomination has prayers of interdiction among their members for the needy ones.  Why?  Same reason.

And we dont have to go to a priest.  I guess you gave me my fourth topic.  Priests are just the rabbis of old.  Rabbi means teacher. We go to the priest to learn, and be helped, but it is not required.  I for one am not so egotistical to think I know everything, especially about my religion.  So I go to someone who studied it for years before being ordained with my questions, figuring they do know more than I.  That is not a set in stone fact, but it is a pretty good bet.

Reply #24 Top
There are also some sides to this we haven't hit on yet.

First, prayer is a blessing from God for US to help us in our transformation. When you ask your neighbor to pray for you...you are in fact BLESSING that person by asking them to come into God's presence. It's really not about what you ask for, its about getting living people in communication with God...you are blessing them...does that make sense? Scripture tells us we don't even really know WHAT to pray for and the HS moans and intercedes in our behalf. (That's true, I used to pray for a million buck, pfft, God knew it would destroy me and instantly set itself up as my idol. Thank GOD he didn't answer that prayer! How many times have you prayed for something and then later said, WHEW glad that DIDN'T happen.)

Second, when David prayed he used A-C-T-S. (Adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication.) Now correct me if I am wrong, but all those things need to be done in the 1st person. Prayer isn't a list of demands you give God, or ask others to present for you to God, its about adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication. (Note supplication is LAST...God knows what we need before we ever even speak it.)

The reason ACTS need to be done in the first person is because God is transforming us into new creations. When we do those things and spend time with Him one on one, then he is transforming us, changing our hearts and minds. That can not be done with any third party involved at all.

In my mind, anything that comes between me and God is an idol. IT may be an idol for an hour, a day, a week, a year, a lifetime. It can be money, my husband, my kid, my COMPUTER, whatever. If I am doing that before spending my time in prayer one on one (A-C-T-S), then whatever is coming between my growth and God is my idol. So I think that is why people throw out "idol worship." We are told in the OT not to even try to commune with the dead. (Story about the witch in the cave when Saul seeks his dead prophets advice. Um, God does not like that....even had laws about it...and since God doesn't change, you can bet he doesn't like it still.)

All that and still I don't believe the dead can hear us. We do not become demi-gods when we die and become omnipresent. I don't know any Christian who believes that. We are assigning God's attributes to dead people we love or revere. Nowhere in scripture that I know of do people seek out the dead or even mention the dead watching "over them."

In the OT they say, "I am going to be with my fathers." when dying...not "Hey Abraham," ~grabbing heart~ "I'm comin to join ya!"



So all those prayers to Mary for intercession, aren't heard by any but God. And you know Jesus has to be shaking his head and saying, SHESH! I DIED so you could approach my throne boldly and yet you STILL try to put things between us.

This is very fun to talk about Dr Guy...I am not insulting the Catholic religion. I can't think about talking to a dead person without smiling!

And I am not so arrogant as to believe people in the very presence of God would give two hoots about me and my walk (they have better things to do). After all I have to do it, they've already won that race.
Reply #25 Top
They are not dead people, they are living souls.


Um, but they are BOTH! They are the living souls of a dead body (until Christ returns and they receive their glorified form). Living souls are not omnipresent, they are not here, they are in heaven. We can't email them or talk to them. They aren't God. He is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God, and here in the form of the HS, the HELPER and TEACHER. They are just "in heaven." Though that certainly is a good deal!