Would Teachers Agree with Zero Tolerance if Applied to Them?

from JoeUser Forums

I have been enjoying the discussions on JU regarding Zero Tolerance.  It seems there is some debate about what the term means even though I have read the policy and seen it in action.  In a nutshell, here are the rules, here are the punishments.  Break rule A even if it is a technicality and you get punishment B. 

What if that applied to teachers?  I see them breaking rules all the time.  Sometimes it is even to the extent of endangering their students.  For example, my son's 2nd grade teacher asked me to help out in class last year so I happily obliged.  I showed up a little early just so I could see what the teacher wanted me to do before jumping in.  I got to the classroom and the kids were unsupervised.  I instantly thought the teacher had stepped out for a second (see I made an assumption of positive not negative).

I sat there for a few minutes watching the kids throw stuff around and be pretty crazy (except for my son of course <g>).  I didn't discipline anyone because A) Why would they listen to me? and B) That isn't my responsibility.  After about 5 minutes I asked my son where the teacher was.  He said that she was at lunch.  So I asked if this was a usually thing.  He said "Yep!"

I realize I could have gone to find an administrator but wanted to see just how long these kids would be left unattended and see what the teacher had to say when she got back.  I sat there for 20 minutes with not a single adult checking on those 2nd graders!  When the teacher got back she said that a hall monitor was supposed to check in and maybe she didn't because she probably assumed I was her.  What?!  There is so much wrong with that!

That is when I had a talk with the principal and she said she was unaware of the situation and assured me they would change the schedule so the kids would be attended at all times.  Do you know how many ways those kids could have caused problems or bodily harm in 20 minutes?!  I don't trust my kids with the school staff thinking they aren't even there with them for any amount of time.

So should that teacher have been canned?  She knew those kids were unattended but didn't try to rectify it.  Zero tolerance!  She left the kids alone for 20 minutes a day!  7yr old kids!  No questions, just start firing!  Don't try to solve a problem, just dole out punishment!

Somehow I think teachers would see zero tolerance differently if it was applied to them.

7,832 views 38 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

A very good analogy!  The teachers would be the first to yell if ZT was applied to them.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bravo! I think that teachers should set an example for their students to follow - and should have to apply the ZT theory to themselves. Us parents are told that 'do as I say, not as I do' isn't a good example to set our children....so teachers should be held to the same standard.

You want to enforce ZT with your students? Then enforce it on the faculty too.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't really like ZT but it is a necessary evil. I do however think that everyone in the school should be held accountable.

After all, aren't we asking the teachers to be judge, jury and executioner? Can't we expect them to be held to the same standards? Oh yeah, they have a union to protect them (in most cases).

I wonder what would happen if the students of the US organized their own union.

Great thought!
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think it can be pretty much assured after the whole "rooting out problems" series of teacher discussions here that the last things most of them are comfortable with is accountability. They want to diagnose problems with kids, but when they are wrong they don't want to be accountable. The last thing they want is accountability, that's why they need zero tolerance. With it they don't have to differentiate between the baby and the bathwater.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Here is a little situation that has occurred with our school lunch time.

When I got here, my principal had my schedule made up. I had NO say in it whatsoever. Half of my students are out for ESL services right before lunch, and it takes them a long time to get all those winter clothes on, being first graders. So they get back from ESL right when we're supposed to be going to lunch. That means that now that it's winter, we're ALWAYS going to be ten minutes late for lunch.

So I get an email last week from my principal addressing all four first grade teachers and how the kitchen is angry because we're always late for lunch and they can't keep the food at temperature, and could we hurry it up a little bit? We're getting our hands slapped for something that the administrator chose to do.

I'm NOT saying that teachers shouldn't be held accountable. I'm also not saying that it's okay for your child's class to be left unsupervised. My guess is that your administrator set up both the children's lunch times and the teachers' lunch times. Most teachers don't get to choose those things. My guess is that there will be nothing done about this situation, even though you were assured there would be something done. And that is very sad (unsupervised children really is something to pitch a stink about. Go back in a week and suprise your child by eating lunch with him and see if the same thing happens).

You think zero tolerance isn't enforced for teachers? This fall, in my new district, a teacher was fired. The previous day, he had yelled at a group of students including the principal's child. The morning after that incident, he was met at the door by security, escorted to his room to clean out his things, and escorted back to his vehicle. I can think of about ten things I could do that would get me fired immediately, especially since I'm in an area where there's lots of teachers and few jobs. Really? They could go out and hire someone new immediately, no problems.

Since links are such a useful and viable source of information to this crowd, I can get a few of those for you if you'd like. Zero tolerance *IS* enforced on teachers. Don't think that its not.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

I don't really like ZT but it is a necessary evil. I

I don't like gulags, concentration camps, and the police state. But they're a necessary evil...

It's not like schools functioned previous to having these policies.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Wow, it's amazing that know one in the school, at least those who should, knew about this at all. I'm glad you were there as I'm sure you are too and found this out. This type of thing is what got some students in my son's previous school in trouble because the teacher wasn't around on the playfield. My son would have gotten blamed for something hadn't I stepped in and pointed out certain things and asked where the teacher was. Kids are left unsupervised more often than we think. I always keep abreast of this by asking my sons questions. Teachers don't realise that kids do notice things and they're smart enough to know what's what.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Creating "zero tolerance" rules is a seemingly expedient way for an administrator or a politician to generate "good P.R." for the problem-of-the-day.

It is one of those sorts of "get tough measures" that sounds good, but never plays out the way it is intended.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
What Marcie? Teachers don't get to set their own schedules? How awful!! That would make them like, well... almost every other employee in the country. ;~D

~~~~~

I think ZT policies are made for the same reason rules against skateboarding in the mall parking lot and ensuring we treat co-workers like robots instead of individuals. Fear of litigation.

If we treat everyone the same then no one can complain. The problem is, everyone isn't the same, every situation isn't the same, so only idiocy would demand we treat them all the same.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
A common "Zero Tolerance" rule is "No Weapons at School." A good rule, right? Sure, but what ZT does is the same thing as 'mandatory sentencing,' where a judge has absolutely no say in what the punishment will be.

Therefore, under ZT, the 5 year old who brings a plastic butter knife to school to cut her cheese with HAS to be punished in the exact same way a 12 year old who has come to school with a 5 inch switchblade concealed in his boot would be.


Exactly!

It is one of those sorts of "get tough measures" that sounds good, but never plays out the way it is intended.


I totally agree! I don't think ZT is appropriate for students or teachers for that very reason.

I'm NOT saying that teachers shouldn't be held accountable. I'm also not saying that it's okay for your child's class to be left unsupervised. My guess is that your administrator set up both the children's lunch times and the teachers' lunch times. Most teachers don't get to choose those things. My guess is that there will be nothing done about this situation, even though you were assured there would be something done.


This was last year. The situation was rectified immediately. The teacher was supposed to have scheduled supervision during her lunch and didn't. She wasn't reprimanded in any way because she was a very well liked teacher who had been with the school district for close to 20 years. I made sure the situation was rectified. I wasn't interested in getting the teacher in trouble.

I was just interested in keeping my son safe. I highly doubt I could have gotten her fired though. It is ironic how the school has all of these security measures that look good on paper but don't do a darn bit of good. They keep all of the doors locked except for the front doors. That might help them spot someone trying to get in (although I have walked in and had noone in the front office for quite a number of minutes) but it doesn't do a darn bit of good keeping the kids from exiting while they are unattended. Almost everyone classroom has a door to the outside just outside their classroom. One of the kids in my son's 2nd grade class could have taken off during that 20 minutes and been gone.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Since links are such a useful and viable source of information to this crowd, I can get a few of those for you if you'd like. Zero tolerance *IS* enforced on teachers. Don't think that its not.


Please do because I am still not convinced you know what zero tolerance is.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
They want to diagnose problems with kids, but when they are wrong they don't want to be accountable. The last thing they want is accountability, that's why they need zero tolerance. With it they don't have to differentiate between the baby and the bathwater


Excellent point Baker!
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
~shrugs~ If I'm such a rutabega I guess what I have to say doesn't belong here.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top


~shrugs~ If I'm such a rutabega I guess what I have to say doesn't belong here.

You make me want to smack my head repeatedly on my desk.

1) Why do you always assume that a comment is directed at you?  How do you know that it wasn't general.

2) Why not just supply the links that you said you would provide?

and..it's spelled "rutabaga"...such a poor, misunderstood vegetable... 

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
~~Somehow I think teachers would see zero tolerance differently if it was applied to them.~~

Why does this become a "teacher" thing, and not a school district administration thing, for they are the ones who create the zero tolerance policies????????
Why is the teacher pointed out...as if he/she wrote the school district handbook??????

I teach, and I find some of the reasons for punishing kids ridiculous, believe me. The overall concept of zero tolerance IS to protect kids...BUT it does need some
restructuring...not EVERY teacher is behind this thing 100 percent. I myself find flaws in it.


Let me add that I can Guarantee that not every little negative situation created by a student is Reported by a teacher. They ARE taken by a case by case situation as well.
I had a child saying he wanted to shower and kiss a female classmate all over, and she complained to me about it...instead of reporting it as sexual harassment to the admins (and sexual harassment is part of zero tolderance here), I had a conference with his parents, who nipped the problem in the bud. Actions teachers make are not always based on
zero tolerance.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why does this become a "teacher" thing, and not a school district administration thing, for they are the ones who create the zero tolerance policies????????


It became a "teacher thing" when a teacher wrote that ZT was a necessity. If you believe in treating things on a case by case basis, you don't believe in ZT and therefore are not a target of this discussion. If you are teaching in a school that has a zero tolerance policy and you aren't reporting every little thing, you might be putting your career at risk.

I had a child saying he wanted to shower and kiss a female classmate all over
Do you agree that this is a far different situation in kindergarten vs high school? ZT would make no distinction between the two.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
~~It became a "teacher thing" when a teacher wrote that ZT was a necessity.~~

And that is One teacher's opinion...And the scenario you wrote about dealt with One specific teacher...yet, the title seems to generalize, and several comments made on here seem to lump teachers into one general "Zero Tolerance Happy" group as well.


~~Do you agree that this is a far different situation in kindergarten vs high school? ZT would make no distinction between the two.~~

And THIS is where ZT restructuring needs to take place...I do see your point.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
And that is One teacher's opinion...And the scenario you wrote about dealt with One specific teacher...yet, the title seems to generalize, and several comments made on here seem to lump teachers into one general "Zero Tolerance Happy" group as well.


Exactly. I am one of millions. On this topic you're going to find MILLIONS of differing opinions. It's life. Deal. I don't give a rat's tail if you don't like me or whatever, but the least you can do is put the "blame" where the "blame" is due. Rose has absolutely nothing to do with *MY* opinion.

Rose has a lot more experience than I do, too. Give her a break, for the love.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
kids are not legally liable for their actions. They can't consent to sex, they can't enter into contracts. Evidently now, though, even when they make offhand remarks, write stupid stuff in diaries, make irresponsible choices as to what cultery to include with their lunches, etc., they are condemned by punishments that can follow them the rest of their lives.

We don't even hold ADULTS to those kind of standards. If I write a diary full of horrible descriptions of what I would do to the neighbors, the state can't "deal with me" because I am a threat. Writing in a diary isn't a crime, no matter what you write.

These aren't kids who harm other kids for the most part. These are kids who make mistakes, a reality we had accepted before safety-insane, socialist parent-overseers took charge of the education system. What was once education is now social child rearing.

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
~~Rose has a lot more experience than I do, too. Give her a break, for the love.~~

Experience I do have, but that shouldn't discount your opinion.
You have a right to defend your stance on this just as much as anyone else does.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
And that is One teacher's opinion...And the scenario you wrote about dealt with One specific teacher...yet, the title seems to generalize,


My title poses a question does it not? Perhaps other people have had experiences that lead them to the same thoughts as I have. Perhaps not. That is the fun of blogging and allowing people to leave comments. I made no personal attacks. This was directed at teachers who speak out in favor of Zero Tolerance.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
double submission...doh!
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Somehow I think teachers would see zero tolerance differently if it was applied to them. This is a rash statement based on a horrific, isolated case.

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
the last things most of them are comfortable with is accountability.
Only when the community, state and federal governments lack accountability in providing the essentials for effective public education. Unless you just despise teacher unions, you should avoid the broad brushstroke. It has been almost everyone's experience that teachers lean backwards to be tolerant toward their pupils but in rare occasions when a pupil is incorrigible, they expect that special avenues be available to him/her where he/she is given special help.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
THe anecdote obviously puts the teacher in a bad light, not necessarily incompetent, but worse, uncaring, which for a teacher is unforgivable.