What if there is more?

from JoeUser Forums

What if the Bible isn't the end of the story?

What if there's more to the nature of the divine and man's relationship with such? 

What if the Council of Nicea only got it partially right - what if there are other teachings that are just as valid that expand upon the teachings of the Bible? 

What if?  How would that affect your faith?  Your beliefs?  Your perceptions of what is real and what isn't?

What if? 

Would it change things for you? 

It did for me. 

religion
5,214 views 42 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
How did it change things for you? I thought you were Buddhist? If becoming Buddhist, that is a pretty big change from the uncertainty of the validity/completeness of the Bible.

What if the Bible isn't the end of the story?


There is no end of the story... We are the end of the story, we are God's chosen people, to create His history for Him, to teach others about the story.

P.S. I'm back from a long break from JU, and I thank you for all the times you have posted on my blog and helped me. I do not think I properly thanked you before.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
There is no end of the story... We are the end of the story, we are God's chosen people, to create His history for Him, to teach others about the story.


Who are the 'We' you are referring to? Is it the Buddhists? Is it the Hindu? Is it the Muslim? Is it the Atheist?
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

We are the end of the story, we are God's chosen people, to create His history for Him, to teach others about the story.

Yeah, but is the bible all there is for you?  Do you see that there's more to it than ONE book? 

You're welcome, btw.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reminds me of that old Monty Python thing where Moses comes down from the mountain and says "I GIVE YE THESE FIFTEEN.." and drops a stone tablet and breaks it. Then he shrugs and corrects himself and says "I GIVE YE THESE TEN COMMANDMENTS"

I'm kinda glad it stopped where it did. That's all the world needs is more religion...
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

I'm kinda glad it stopped where it did.

I'm not. 

I'm not talking about dogma and rules, I'm talking about the nature of the divine and human relationship with the divine.

Christianity sells itself as the be all and end all, and I don't think it is. I think that the dudes that sat on the Council of Nicea were more politically motiviated than they were spiritually motivated, and that they omitted some texts that could potentially change the face of Christianity as we know it.  The Gospel of Thomas, for example, has some stuff in it that changes a LOT of things.  It doesn't contradict Christianity, it expands and compliments it. 

Think of it this way:  Christianity is like looking through a keyhole into a room.  You can see some stuff, but you don't get the whole picture.  Add these other texts to what is contained in the Bible, and it's like opening the door to the room slightly. You see more of what's beyond.......

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who are the 'We' you are referring to? Is it the Buddhists? Is it the Hindu? Is it the Muslim? Is it the Atheist?


I think that he means humanity in general. And I still disagree.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reminds me of that old Monty Python thing where Moses comes down from the mountain and says "I GIVE YE THESE FIFTEEN.." and drops a stone tablet and breaks it. Then he shrugs and corrects himself and says "I GIVE YE THESE TEN COMMANDMENTS".


Before I start, that was Mel Brooks in his "History of the World Part I". Link

Now to the meat of the topic:
What if the Bible isn't the end of the story?
What if there's more to the nature of the divine and man's relationship with such?
What if the Council of Nicea only got it partially right - what if there are other teachings that are just as valid that expand upon the teachings of the Bible?


I know from past conversations that you, dharmagirl, have gone your own way from Christianity from your life experiences. The Eight Fold Middle Way became just as relevant as, if not more than, the Sermon on the Mount. Very interesting and fruitful discussions have been had regarding this so-called Buddhism...

As you know, I am a Mormon. Card carrying member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the one based in Salt Lake City, all that Utah Jazz.

As a Christian, I know that God has not stopped speaking to mankind. Doesn't it stand to reason that God loves us just as much as he did the people alive in Jerusalem and its surroundings back 2000 years ago? Doesn't it also bear out that God wants us to know how to deal with moral issues that have taken new forms in the 21st century?

Well I know that the Bible is the Word of God. I also know that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that a man can get closer to God by reading both than he can by reading the Bible alone.

So, to answer your question, my fair dharma, I do believe that God continues to speak to man. And it does affect my daily life. And I love the life it gives me.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who says the bible is the end?  The bible is the middle.  The end has yet to come.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who says the bible is the end? The bible is the middle. The end has yet to come.


I dunno if the Bible is the middle, but it surely is not the end.

Who are the 'We' you are referring to? Is it the Buddhists? Is it the Hindu? Is it the Muslim? Is it the Atheist?


I was referring to each and every person that has ever existed and who ever will exist.

Christianity sells itself as the be all and end all, and I don't think it is. I think that the dudes that sat on the Council of Nicea were more politically motiviated than they were spiritually motivated, and that they omitted some texts that could potentially change the face of Christianity as we know it. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, has some stuff in it that changes a LOT of things. It doesn't contradict Christianity, it expands and compliments it.

Think of it this way: Christianity is like looking through a keyhole into a room. You can see some stuff, but you don't get the whole picture. Add these other texts to what is contained in the Bible, and it's like opening the door to the room slightly. You see more of what's beyond.......


Only if you think the Bible is the only thing. Take Catholics for example. As a Catholic, I believe that most of the Bible is symbolic (except for a few passages and areas, such as John Chapter 6). We rely heavily on Sacred Tradition, as well as a little personal interpretation. Yes, a lot of people confuse Catholics with the worst of the "keyhole" denominations with its tradition and pretty stoic structure, however there are a lot of things that cannot be lumped together as "CHRISTIANITY". What type of Buddhist are you? Zen? Maha-Yana? I studied Buddhism a little, and I know there are a lot of different sects. It is unwise, therefore, to say "Buddhists all believe that form is essence and essence is form."

I may have posted ignorantly before, and possibly this post, without knowing your exact meaning, and for that, I am sorry.

Dharma, what are you looking for? Are you just looking for a hole in Christianity's beliefs? Salvation? An understanding of purpose? Or could you explain what in the Bible is lacking for you?
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was referring to each and every person that has ever existed and who ever will exist.


Well, I appreciate the thought, but leave me out. I'm an atheist with my own ideas of the beginning and middle of the story and would prefer to orchestrate my own ending.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

If I had to bet on the ultimate spiritual resting place for you when your searching days are over and you find yourself on the path which will both comfort and strengthen you for the rest of your life, I'd place my bet on Gnostic Christianity.

Ah, you know me too well, sistah.  You're spot on the money.  It's a fantastic thing, it really is.  There were so many questions that I had, and reading some of The Other Bible and the Gnostic Gospels has answered a lot of them.

Isnt it strange how few Christians (of any denomination) will even aknowledge the fact that huge portions of the Gospels were left out of their precious, "complete" Bible? How many of them have never even heard of the Council of Nicea, much less have any awareness of the decisions that were made there, the types of men who made those decisions, and the political motivations that influenced their choices?
The bible is the middle

Strange, and infuriating as hell.  Those guys left stuff out that, had it been included, would have made HUGE differences to the face of christianity.  You've read them, so you know...... but I wish that more people would just give them a chance.

So, to answer your question, my fair dharma, I do believe that God continues to speak to man

I think that he spoke a whole lot back then but that some people chose to leave some HUGE parts out.  HUGE.   I took believe that he still speaks.....but that it's up to us to listen.  I also believe that the divine is in each and every one of us...and that ultimately self-knowledge (gnosis) will lead us to god.

It's a fabulous thing, y'all.  I'm like a kid in a candy store.

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't believe the Bible is the end of the story at all.

I don't believe the Bible is "symbolic," either. I don't believe that God wanted His words to be available only to the learned. I think He wanted the Bible to make sense to and be applicable for every kind of person.

I believe that faith is a CHOICE, and that any kind of faith--Christianity, Judaisim, Buddhism, etc., etc., is a CHOICE as well.

I CHOOSE to believe that the Bible was written by men but inspired by God Himself. Some people have never allowed God to work in them or through them, so of course this is a foreign idea to them. It's okay. It's a CHOICE. Has God ever whispered in my ear and "told" me something? No. I believe that He does it every day though. And maybe He has told me something that I just don't understand or that I'm just not open to. I "feel" God. When I read the Bible or pray or worship Him with fellow believers or just get to spend time in His creation. I told Christ I needed him almost two decades ago. He, and the Bible, really made sense to me just ten years ago when I was in 7th grade. How does God feel to me? I get the tingles. When I truly open my heart to Him and let Him see all of me, let Him know how complete I am in Him, I get the tingles...the shivers. I don't know how God "feels" to others. I'll have to ask some other brothers and sisters in faith.

I CHOOSE to believe that the Bible is the way God wants it to be. People have made choices about what's in the Bible and what's not. True. But what kind of God would He be if he let the very thing He speaks through be flawed? He wouldn't be God. He'd be a person just like us if His Word wasn't perfect.

It's a choice. You can choose to believe the things I do, or you can't. Lots of people claim to be "Christian" and every one of those people experience God in a different manner, and take different truths from His word each time they read it. Lots of people claim to be Christian because they've been to church before and think God's okay. The Bible says that's NOT what true Christianity is.

On the other hand, I think that other faiths also have some validity. Do I think they talk about the real God or "gods"? No. But I think they have valid ideas about how to treat other people and how to take care of oneself. Just because *I* don't believe it doesn't make it applicable.

The Bible has lots of things in it that I struggle with. The Bible has standards for me that are really hard to live up to, and I frequently don't. The Bible has some paradoxes in it that are difficult to understand. Lots of "middle ground." There's lots that I don't understand in there. I figure when God wants me to understand something He'll make it clear--or He'll allow a teacher into my life who can challenge me. He's fully done it in the past and I CHOOSE to believe that He can do it again when He wants me to.

My pastor preached an awesome message today about pain and challenges that we face. I'm going to write an article about it later if I have time. It really made sense to me, because I've been there.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

Dharma, what are you looking for? Are you just looking for a hole in Christianity's beliefs? Salvation? An understanding of purpose? Or could you explain what in the Bible is lacking for you?

I'm looking for god.  I'm looking for purpose, for security, for answers to questions that the bible alone can't answer.  I already FOUND holes in Christianity, and most of those have been filled by what I discovered in Gnosticism.  I found holes in Buddhism too.....and those too have been filled by Gnosticism.  It hasn't answered ALL the questions, but i don't want it to.  There HAS to be some stuff that you take simply on faith, if that makes sense.

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
There HAS to be some stuff that you take simply on faith, if that makes sense.


There is. And everyone does it who believes. No one can make you believe. Belief is illogical. If you are looking for logic, look to physics. If you are looking to faith, look within you. No one can put it in you. You must place it in yourself.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm looking for purpose, for security, for answers to questions that the bible alone can't answer.


When I went looking for these things it was a long and arduous search. I went through a lot of changes that started by being baptized Catholic and ended 30 years later with my embracing atheism. Purpose comes from within. Security comes from within. I finally felt all of this late one evening. I stood outside in my backyard, alone. It was dark. It was quiet. I looked up at the dark sky and saw endless stars and in between them, endless darkness. I felt without purpose. I felt small and insignificant. I felt vulnerable. I wondered what the heck this was all for.

Just then the light on my back porch lit up. The back door opened slowly and my wife poked her head out. She asked me why I was still up, and what was I doing standing out there alone. Then she told me she had a nightmare. It had been bad enough to wake her up in a cold sweat. She said she reached out for me but when I wasn't there started to worry, so she came looking. She said to come in and come to bed. I looked at her. I looked back up at the stars. I smiled. I came to bed. I had found my purpose. I felt secure, because I knew I made her feel secure. The vulnerability was gone. Someone needed me.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

I CHOOSE to believe that the Bible is the way God wants it to be.

I don't.  See, I think men got themselves all full of pride and thought that they could decipher what god wants by picking and choosing what's in the bible, and they kind of screwed up in doing so.  I don't think that the bible was ever intended to be a complete document.....and we have, in our infallability, taken it upon ourselves to 'finish' what wasn never meant to be finished.

 

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

No one can make you believe

I wish someone would tell that to the evangelical christians and marguerite perrin.....

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
As a postscript to what I wrote in post #16 I thought I'd add this. I often go back and read Eliot's poem Little Gidding from his Four Quartets. This one verse has always summed up lifes journey, for me at least:

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.

T.S. Eliot -- "Little Gidding" (the last of his Four Quartets)
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I appreciate the thought, but leave me out. I'm an atheist with my own ideas of the beginning and middle of the story and would prefer to orchestrate my own ending.
End of quote


Hahaha, I have never ever met an atheist who didn't think religion was trying to force their own path. You cannot be left out, you have free will, just as every other human on the planet. YOU make the story. YOU are the story, whether you choose to be or not. The Bible doesn't have to be your story, but you are a character in the Great Story, because you live, not what you choose to believe.

I'm looking for god. I'm looking for purpose, for security, for answers to questions that the bible alone can't answer. I already FOUND holes in Christianity, and most of those have been filled by what I discovered in Gnosticism. I found holes in Buddhism too.....and those too have been filled by Gnosticism. It hasn't answered ALL the questions, but i don't want it to. There HAS to be some stuff that you take simply on faith, if that makes sense.
End of quote


First, I apologize. I thought I had the answer, and I would rush in, shed some of my knowledge, gain a little of your respect, and then get out like the Good Samaritan. How wrong was I...

Dharma, you and every other person in the world is looking for the same thing. We are all human, with inherent questions that cannot be answered by something written down. If you just read the Bible, or read the Gnostic texts, or the Socrates texts, or the Descartan Principles, or anything, you will not understand. You are looking for an answer when there is no question, as everyone is. We must find a question together. The Bible can answer the Why's and When's of life, but you must travel to the beat of your own drum, find your own place, find your own question, and then I believe you will be fulfilled. Fulfillment to you might not come in the answer, but the lifelong journey to the answer.

I can honestly say that I will never know. Every question I have every answered through introspection, philosophy, religion, or experience, has come back to me in the Hydra effect. I hope, however, through my journey in life and Catholicism, if I choose to remain Catholic, will eventually lead me to spiritual fulfillment, and I hope all of you will find that in the religion, or lack thereof, that you so choose.

It was dark. It was quiet. I looked up at the dark sky and saw endless stars and in between them, endless darkness. I felt without purpose. I felt small and insignificant. I felt vulnerable. I wondered what the heck this was all for.
End of quote


My father calls me a high-functioning autistic. I have the social-aptitude and emotional quotient as a large sack of potatoes sin sprouts. However, I sometimes am able to see, or am unable to see, things not evident to my peers. I have looked up at the night sky, much the same as you might have, and saw endless stars, endless darkness. I have felt without purpose. I still don't know what my purpose is, or if I will ever get it. I feel small, I feel vulnerable, and I still wonder what this is all about. I know I have a purpose though. I can feel it, even as I sit here. My back starts to tingle, the darkness seems a little darker than it was before, the stars seem a little brighter. Where I thought there was silence, I hear a ringing, tingling sensation in my eardrums. The hairs on my neck and back stand up, my arms and legs tense so that I feel their power. Adrenaline races through my body like arc-lightning, and my mind teams with thoughts. And I simply wonder...

I sometimes just laugh at God. I think some people are so fixated on an omnipresent and remote dictator, where all of your acts are controlled. I know, or think I know, God has a sense of humor and I love it. Do you like number theory? I am fascinated by it. I am not the brightest mathematical mind, but I just love things like Pi. Someone finally figures out how to get the radius of a circle using this number. They think, "Wow, I can find the area of this perfectly round shape!" Then they think about it, and their like, "How the hell did this perfect shape come from this ugly number?" THen some other genius figures out the equation for Pi. (I memorized it because i think its sweet 16arctan(1/5)-4arctan(1/239) So someone finds out how to figure out how to get Pi. The great thing is, whenever someone thinks they have figured a number out, or a function, they realize that each and everytime they climb one hill, they find one even taller than that. Just makes me wonder...
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

Just then the light on my back porch lit up. The back door opened slowly and my wife poked her head out. She asked me why I was still up, and what was I doing standing out there alone. Then she told me she had a nightmare. It had been bad enough to wake her up in a cold sweat. She said she reached out for me but when I wasn't there started to worry, so she came looking. She said to come in and come to bed. I looked at her. I looked back up at the stars. I smiled. I came to bed. I had found my purpose. I felt secure, because I knew I made her feel secure. The vulnerability was gone. Someone needed me.

You know, that's a very nice story, but.....the issue with having  another human be your purpose, your raison d'etre, is that they are both mortal and fallible.  I'm not looking for someone to need me.  I needed someTHING, not someONE.  I needed god, I needed to be reassured that there IS something bigger than this.

I think that I have found it.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

Fulfillment to you might not come in the answer, but the lifelong journey to the answer.

EXACTLY!  I'm not looking for ALL the answers right now.  That would be incredibly boring. 

I have the social-aptitude and emotional quotient as a large sack of potatoes sin sprouts.

Aww, I don't think it's that bad!!!  That was pretty funny though.

I sometimes just laugh at God. I think some people are so fixated on an omnipresent and remote dictator, where all of your acts are controlled. I know, or think I know, God has a sense of humor and I love it.

EXACTLY (again)!  There's all this worshiping and prostrating oneself and worrying and fretting.....there's no need for it.  Really. 

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
I needed someTHING, not someONE. I needed god, I needed to be reassured that there IS something bigger than this.


I needed someTHING also. The thing I needed *was* to be needed.
I also needed to be reassured that there IS something bigger than this. I found that love *is* bigger than this.

AS for being mortal and fallible. There are others in my life that need me. Others that will live long past my existence, and being fallible is why they need me. For that matter, being fallible is why I need them.

I am content with my life. I am content with my answers to life.

I can see that you too have found many of the answers you want to reach that contentment. I am happy for you.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't. See, I think men got themselves all full of pride and thought that they could decipher what god wants by picking and choosing what's in the bible, and they kind of screwed up in doing so. I don't think that the bible was ever intended to be a complete document.....and we have, in our infallability, taken it upon ourselves to 'finish' what wasn never meant to be finished.


Again, that is your choice to believe that.

I wish someone would tell that to the evangelical christians and marguerite perrin.....


The Bible tells its readers that we need to show and tell others about Jesus. Frankly, I think a good example, a life well-lived, says much more than "Hey, sinner, rise and be saved by the blood of JESUS, or beware the flames and fire of eternal damnation in HELL!" ~shrugs~ But that's just me.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
You know, that's a very nice story, but.....the issue with having another human be your purpose, your raison d'etre, is that they are both mortal and fallible. I'm not looking for someone to need me. I needed someTHING, not someONE. I needed god, I needed to be reassured that there IS something bigger than this.


I agree. Ryan doesn't make me "better" or make me more "whole". He is my companion. I love him. But he's not my reason to be alive and to continue on with life. If he was, the first 22 years of my life would have been meaningless.

My mother has been a widow going on 7 years now. She loved my father. They were married for almost 25 years before he passed away. But my mom has hope in something more. My dad wasn't the be all, end all for her. She's still mourning, but she's continued living because she has her faith, and she's confident in the promises that God has made her. If she remarries, I fully expect that she won't make that man her reason for living either.

It's nice to be needed. But I think it's better to be wanted.

I know, or think I know, God has a sense of humor and I love it.


Wouldn't He have to? I mean...penises. Our ugly feet. One of my favorite renderings of Jesus is of Him laughing.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I am with singrdave on this one.

I have no problem believing that The Bible, while a wonderful work of inspired writers, is incomplete, incorrectly translated in many places, and simply one tool which God has given us to get to know Him just a little bit. But the end? Only a beginning.

singrdave already summed up a lot of our beliefs. But I still believe God calls prophets. I still believe they give us inspired teachings that expand, strengthen and enhance our understanding of the divine. I still believe that we are each entitled to spiritual communication from the heavens if we are but willing to listen and seeking that instruction.

"We believe all the God has revealed, we believe all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God" -Joseph Smith, Article of Faith #9

So, to answer the final question "Would it change things for you?", the answer is simple: Nope, not at all.

Good thoughts Dharma.