Catholic Misconceptions II - Infallibility

There is a very real misconception about how the Pope is Infallible.  Indeed, it is not only held by non-catholics, but many Catholics as well.  But the truth is that the Pope can only be Infallible when certain conditions are met.  And while the Church does not list how many times those conditions have been met, most theologians only agree on 2 instances.

The first was in 1854 When Pope Pius IX came out with the Immaculate Conception of Mary (another misconception for a later day).  The Second was in 1950 when Pope Pius XII spoke on the Assumption of Mary.

Some theologians believe there are more instances, and indeed there maybe.  But it was the Vatican Council I that came up with the official doctrine so any Infallible statements prior to that are argued upon, even though the doctrine has its roots in the Gospels and Paul's letters.  So while the Pope may have been speaking infallibly in the past, some dont recognize it until it became an official Teaching of the Church.

So it is evident that not everything the Pope says is infallible, and indeed from the sparsity of times it is even thought to have been done, most of the time the Pope is not infallible.

For the Pope to make an infallible statement, some conditions have to be met.  First he must be speaking ex cathedra, or for the whole Church. Second it cannot contradict any previous teachings of the Church. Third, he must basically state that he is resolving some point of Doctrine with absolute authority, and finally, he must be addressing the entire Church (the entire Church being all members of faith).

So while some Priests last year were railing against John Kerry and his pro-life position on abortion, no Pope has ever spoken Ex Cathedra on the subject, and therefore it is a teaching of the Church, not a doctrine of the Church.  And that in itself is a critical distinction.  For any Catholic can doubt a Teaching of the Church, and still remain a member in good standing.  But you cannot doubt a Doctrine of the Church and still remain a Catholic (Doubting in and Doubting out).

The Doctrine of Infallibility is a powerful one, and while the Church has been abusive in many of its practices in the past, that is one it has not abused.  And for Good reason.  For the whole concept behind Infallibility is that you are speaking with the Voice of God.  And even corrupt Popes did not want to cross Him!

5,108 views 41 replies
Reply #1 Top
I may just have to wait for Chapter III; it's a little hard to argue with that one. However if you posed it as "Infallible for who..."
Reply #2 Top

I may just have to wait for Chapter III; it's a little hard to argue with that one. However if you posed it as "Infallible for who..."

Not for me!

Reply #3 Top
Ok got a question Doc on this:

But it was the Vatican Council I that came up with the official doctrine so any Infallible statements prior to that are argued upon, even though the doctrine has its roots in the Gospels and Paul's letters.

I'm really familiar with Paul's letters and the gospels. And I was wondering......where about are you getting this? Cuz I don't see this anywhere.

Pllllllllllease don't give me Matt 16 ok?



Reply #4 Top
Try here:
Link

And here if you're up to voluminous research:
Link

For general information try here (remember we've been around a long time, so there is a lot to wade through):
Link

For illumination and discussion try this one, (one of my favorites):
Link

And the commission itself comes from Jn 14:26 and again in Acts 15:28. Remember we recognize the Apostolic Sucession beginning with Peter as the first "Sheppard of Rome" down to present day. In light of that we see Christ's Commission to Peter to be as valid today as when it was first given and passed down through the millenia to the current Bishop Of Rome.

I do have a question for you directly though. At what age and what level of involvement with the Roman Catholic Church did you leave? I feel it's relavent and germain to the discussion since you often times refer to yourself as having been RCC. Were you schooled in Catholic Catechism and a participant in the Church's Sacraments?
Reply #5 Top
I'm really familiar with Paul's letters and the gospels. And I was wondering......where about are you getting this? Cuz I don't see this anywhere.


There is a great deal of difference when we're talking Scripture and Tradition Of The Faith. There are many, many sources in the Tradition Of The Faith that lend understanding to how early Christians understood the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. Kind of a road map to how we got here from there. To try and interpret how something was meant and taught from so many centuries ago without taking it into account is arrogance and hypocrisy at it's extreme. It would be like having a defense attorney represent you with no law degree, no training, and without any knowledge of case law, defending a murder charge with a copy of Black's Law Library.
Which is why of course we have ordained Ministers and Priests whom study at Seminaries.
Reply #6 Top
Hi Nadeon

Well Jesus and Paul encouraged all to "search the scriptures." Here's a few of my favorites.

"Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path." Ps 119:105

"Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee." Ps 119:11

Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly nor stands in the eay of sinners nor sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law does he meditate day and night....Ps 1:1-2

"These words which I command you this day shall be in your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lay down and you get up. " Deut 6

And when Paul went to preach in Barea they would not believe him just because.....so they searched the scriptures for validation.
and as a result Luke writes about them in Acts 17:11 commending them:

"These were more noble than those in Thessaloncia in that they received the word of with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so.
All through scripture we are told to search them cuz it's life and in them we find Jesus.

Tradition is fine but not if it contradicts scripture and I'm afraid that lots of these man-made religions do just that. They take us away and do not bring us into the word which is where we need to be. I am sola scriptora and the ministers and priests are not to take the place of our own search for God. They can help shepherd us but in the end it's us and God..one on one. We will all stand before him and be accountable for what we did and did not do while here on earth.

I don't believe in mine own interpretation (means nothing). I believe the bible interprets itself. Peter talks about that in his epistle. All the answers are in there.....just gotta be willing to take the time with God and read and search for them.

The Apostles wrote down all that we need to know. The rest is where all the trouble comes in. That's why you have so much division....cuz they all take a little of this and a little of that and run with it and build a theology on it.

I have had other Catholics thank me for bringing them to the scriptures. They say I've given them a gift that can't be taken away. Now the question I never did ask them is why me? Why didn't they get this from the CC? My question to you is.... Have you ever checked out God's word to see if the CC is telling you the truth?

I was baptized and had my first communion in the CC. Left when I was about 10 but do remember it vividly. Went to Catholic instruction. My mother left the CC when she was told NOT to read the bible. We had statues all over the house. She was like the only one (with us kids) that went to Mass on New Years Day. It was empty...I do remember that. She had stumbled on a few housewives that were studying the scriptures and wanted what they had. The priest forbidded her to so she left.

It would be like having a defense attorney represent you with no law degree, no training, and without any knowledge of case law, defending a murder charge with a copy of Black's Law Library.


My defense attorney is Christ. He is judge, jury and defense attorney all wrapped up in one.

"And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knows this man (Jesus) letters having never learned? John 7:15

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled and they took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus." Acts 4:13

God doesn't care about degrees, pillars, or popes. He cares about the heart. True wisdom is knowing God.
See going by your critera even Jesus wouldn't qualify forget about John and Peter. The men he chose to start the church were simple men, unlearned to give out a simple gospel....come to Jesus and be saved. Follow me!! That's it. Believe in the one that sent me....that's it. The problem is these religions are taking us further away from Christ not closer. It's not about religion but about relationship....that's whay the religions are going down the tubes and for many it's more about money...sad but true.

Jesus said this himself:

Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites as it is written, This people honors me with their lips but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God you hold the tradition of men as the washing of pots and cups and many other such like things you do. Full well you reject the commandment of God that you may keep your own traditions. Mark 7



Reply #7 Top
Ok Doc........just remember you instigated this. Are you happy now? Now I'm in big trouble....right?



Reply #8 Top

Pllllllllllease don't give me Matt 16 ok?

HOw about these?

  • Jn 1:42; Mk 3:16 ("And to Simon he gave the name Peter", Cephas or Rock)
  • Mt 16:18 ("thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church"; cf. Mt 7:24-28, the house built on rock)
  • Jn 16:13 ("when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.")
  • Jn 14:26 ("the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things")
  • Jn 21:15-17 ("Feed my lambs/sheep") (stated three times)
  • Lk 10:16 ("He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.")
  • 1 Tim 3:15 ("behave thyself in the house of God, which is ... the pillar and ground of the truth.")
  • 1 Jn 2:27 ("let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.")
  • Ac 15:28 ("For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, ...") (the Apostles speak with voice of Holy Ghost)
  • Mt 10:2 ("And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter,...") (Peter is first)
  • Mt 28:20 ("Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days...")
  • Ludwig Ott points out the many indications in Scripture that Peter was given a primary role with respect to the other Apostles: Mk 5:37, Mt 17:1, Mt 26:37, Lk 5:3, Mt 17:27, Lk 22:32, Lk 24:34, and 1 Cor 15:5 (Fund., Bk. IV, Pt. 2, Ch. 2, §5).

Here is the LInk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Google is my friend!

Reply #9 Top

Reply By: Nadeon

WOW!  I am impressed with your command of the religion!  I just came back 20 years ago (and then really started my education).

Reply #10 Top

Which is why of course we have ordained Ministers and Priests whom study at Seminaries.

SO they can teach us, but it is still their interpretation.  Interesting.  My Second Daughter's God father saud he converted to Catholocism for one reason.  NO matter which church you go to, you hear the same message.  I found that very profound.

Reply #11 Top

Ok Doc........just remember you instigated this. Are you happy now? Now I'm in big trouble....right?

Very happy!  As I said, my job is not to convert, but to educate  and discuss.  Now that you know the truth about my beliefs, you can debate and discuss them intelligently.  You will not convert me, but I dont mind you telling me of your beliefs.  You are a very religious person, and I respect that and you.

So go for it!  I do not mind being told my beliefs are not others.  That is why we have so many demoninations of a sect of religion called Christianity. Because it truly is a fit for all belief.

Reply #12 Top
OK I'll get back to you on the above scripture. Too late now. I'm actually a year and a half just studying John verse by verse. I have a Catholic lady in my study and she and I have no trouble because we are reading it together and using other scripture as needed to shed light on any given passage.

I don't consider myself religious per se....just a Christian that loves Jesus. It's not up to me to convert so don't worrry about that from me. Covert to what? I'm an equal opportunity religion basher (for lack of a better word). If you were Hindu or Muslim I would actually be still bringing you to scripture. It's the Holy Spirit's Job not mine. I believe the word of God is "quick and powerful and sharper than a two edged sword." And when Jesus comes back it says this "sword" is coming from His mouth...Rev 19. He's going to smite the nations with it it says.

So I'll be back......maybe tomorrow....good night-sleep tight.

My heart has been for some time to educate and bring bible literacy back to people that have no idea what they are missing. I had one lady in one of my studies look up at me and said..."I had no idea this is in here. I have to tell my family this." And she was in her late 40's.
Reply #13 Top
SO they can teach us, but it is still their interpretation.


Yes and no. When a body of religion, Christian or otherwise convenes a conclave or synod to decide which teachings are spiritual, and which are to be taught, and how they are to be taught, it is by consensus. Each faction/tribe/region, however you want to divide an area up provides a representative to debat and vote. It is by mutual agreement on behalf of those represented. The interpretation is the "official" interpretation accepted by the Church Universal to prevent error, schism and heresy. That is why the Church had the various councils, (Nicea, Latrian, Vatican I and II etc.). Does that prevent you from personal interpretation? No. But personal interpretation is not used fro teaching or preaching the Word.
I have a post coming shortly on that topic.
Reply #14 Top
KFC, please stop taking my replys out of context. Your defense of hurling your interpretation of scripture, as it suits you, is insulting at best, and offensive at worst. You are not the final word on how to interpret scripture. You are on a power trip. If you feel a call to preach get ye forthwith to a seminary or Bible college of your choice. Learn why wherefore and how, be examined and tested, and credentialled. Otherwise you are just so much wind blowing in a storm of cacaphony. Knowing what you believe is only half the equation. Knowing why is spiritual maturity.
Reply #15 Top

I don't consider myself religious per se

I meant religious as in very devout, not as in one who tries to convert all.  I think you do a very valuable service.  Teaching the bible.  Just so you dont go JW on us here!

Reply #16 Top

No. But personal interpretation is not used fro teaching or preaching the Word.
I have a post coming shortly on that topic.

I dont mean interpreting scripture.  Rather when they apply it to current circumstances, that is their interpretation.  And that is why it varies from person to person.  It is evident that even the Bishops in the US are not of one voice - just look at how they treated Kerry?  Some accepting him with open arms, others threatening to deny him the Eucharist.  Different interpretations pertaining to modern life.

Reply #17 Top
dont mean interpreting scripture.


That is precisely what I mean. One has to interpret and then make the application. On a personal level that works fine for the most part. But in a publc way, say preching, or endorsements (or non-endorsements) as you pointed out it doesn't work so well. The denial of the Eucharist was an attempt to bring American Catholicism back in line with Rome. When it is called to the Vatican's attention, (dissention), it is addressed, sometimes to the dispatch of a Papal Nuncio (personal rep). It happened here when there was much debate about modernizing a Cathedral and charges of kick backs, bribes, and sacriledge.
American Catholicism has ever been a problem for Rome. Our government and constitution do not follow the European mold. You have to remember that the Vatican is a kind of monarchy albeit a religious one, styled after ancient European ones, with a good dose of ancient Roman imperialism thrown in. If you draw the comparison, the Synod of Bishops and College of Cardinals are very much like the Roman Senate under Ceasar. (That doesn't condemn it, it's just a judicial/governmental system it was patterned after.) Although like the former, it is susceptible to corruption, like any institution of man (I am making the distinction between the Church as the body of Christ and the corporeal institution itself).
For a great example of the problems of American Catholicism, just look to the debate over John Kennedy being nominated for President. The common theme was "where does his allegiance lie?" The same to a lesser extent occurred with John Kerry (maybe it's just being named John? j/k). The topic of your post underscores the fears that many had during those debates. If the Pope spoke Ex Cathedra on say, abortion, (which he could in light of the Commandment not to kill), would a sitting Catholic president defy the law of the land? Would he be excommunicated if he did not? Europe has had it's share of problems with unity as well. Witness Henry VIII and the birth of the Church of England. That was personal interpretation and application run amok!
Link
The same holds true today pertaining to modern life. We throw off Christ's teaching when it does not suit us. Worse yet, we bend it to our own will.
Reply #18 Top
KFC, please stop taking my replys out of context. Your defense of hurling your interpretation of scripture, as it suits you, is insulting at best, and offensive at worst.


Well I'm not sure what I did to offend you here. You seem very angry. Can you tell me where I went wrong? I went to scripture to answer you, didn't give you my answers but that of what scripture has taught us. If you have read the gospels you would know that Jesus time and time again would go to the scriptures in his answers. When he was tempted...remember what he said to Satan..."It is written, it is written and it is written" each and every time the devil tried to take him away from God in his temptation.. Should I do any less? We are to follow him and we are told by him to love God with our whole heart, soul and MIND. We are to use our minds and we are to read the scriptures. We don't interpret it...we read it. The Holy Spirit is our teacher. If you want more info on this read the whole upper room discourse in John Chap 13-17.

When I read your reply...again going back to scripture I could hear Paul saying....."Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Gal 4:16

God's word is truth.....and I will go to it again and again to get my answers because there is nothing in this world which makes more sense to me.

And that from a child you have know the holy scripturees which are able to make thee wise unto salvation thruough faith which is in Christ JESUS. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Tim 2:15-16.
Reply #19 Top
Can you tell me where I went wrong?


Sola Scriptura
Reply #20 Top
Hi Doc,

Well I sat down with my dog-eared bible and looked thru each and every verse you gave me above in context. Some kinda go together so I put together. Now remember my original question was for you to show me in scripture where the Pope is infalible in his ex Cathedra position. I don't see any of these verses do that but here goes anyhow.

Matt 10:2- The listing of the 12. The 12 are always listed in similar order. Peter is mentioned first and is considered the spokesman for the group. Notice Judas is mentioned last. Quite common also to name most prominent first and so on.

Matt 7:24-28-The parable of hearing God's words and doing them is like a man which builds his house on a rock. I'm taking it you are tying this in with Peter being that rock? Well just cuz it mentions the word rock doesn't mean it's Peter. The house here would seem to represent our spiritual life and the rain could be divine judgement and the house built on the foundation of God's word will stand. The subject is those who hear and do Jesus' sayings.

Matt 16:18-You weren't suppose to come here memba? Ok *sigh* "Thou art Peter (petros) and upon this rock (petra) I will (future) build my church (ecclesia-called out ones).......

This is where knowing the original language is great. I have a great site called greeknewtestament.com which is very helpful. You can type in any verse and it comes up in Greek, Latin, the Catholic DR and many other translations. Peter is not the rock....Christ is. All thru Scripture Christ is called the rock, the cornerstone, the chief boulder. etc. Paul says: "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor 10:4 This whole exchange is a play on words....Christ is the bedrock and Peter by interpretation means stone/or pebble. Big diff.

Peter also teaches on this in 1 Peter 2:4-8 saying Chirst is the living stone (v4), the corner stone (v6), the rejected stone (v7) and the stuumbling stone (v8).

Luke 10:16.."He that hears you hears me....." not sure why you chose this one? Reading in context is very important. So who's he talking to? Well if you go to v1 you read..."The Lord appointed 70 others also and sent them out 2 by 2 before his face into every city and place where he himself would come." He then issues the command which is the verse you gave.

John 16:13 ....when the spirit of truth is come he will guide you into all truth for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak and he will show you things to come.
14:26: But the comforter which is the HS whom the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said to you.

Now the HS is a HE as you can see. It's not the CC as I'm thinking you are saying? It's the third part of the trinity. Compare with 14:17-"Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it sees him not neither knows him but you know him for he dwells with you and shall be in you[/U]. Also can read 15:26 & 16:7

1 John 2:27-well not exactly...this is both v20 and 27 that you quoted above. But this is about the annointing of the HS (27). Notice it abides in you. The HS guides the believer into "knowing all things."(14:26 & 16:13) It's kinda like True Christians have a built in lie detector. I believe if you know the truth you can easily spot the lie when it crops up. We know instantly 2+2 does not equal 6. Pilate asked standing in front of Jesus...."What is truth?" when truth was standing right in front of you.

John 21:15-17-This is the part when Jesus asks 3 times Peter do you love me? That whole scene is to reinstate Peter into the ministry. This shows the great love and compassion of Jesus towards Peter who had just denied him. 3 times Peter denied him and 3 times Jesus asks him this question. When he first commissioned Peter it was to be a fisher of men...now here before he leaves, he commissions Peter to be a shepherd.....this is a dual commission. By hook and by crook.......

The rest in a nutshell to not be JW like...........is that we are the temple of God. God has not instituted a denomination or a building but a people. Church is people....universal...not a denomination. Jesus said "My kingdom is not part of this world" These religions are basically set up as mini Kingdoms. 1 Cor 3:16 Know you not that you are the temple of god and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 6:19- What? know you not that your body is the temple of the HS which is in you which you have of God and you are not your own?

One last one in answer to a lot of the above is found in Eph 2:19-22-You are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus himself being the chief corner stone. In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto a holy temple in the Lord. In whom you also are builded together for a habitation of God trhough the Spirit. [/B

Tried to be as brief as I could be......there's so much more I could have said..... Have fun!!!

Now you haveta read this for yourself.....and figure out what is God teaching here? I would NEVER want you to take anyone's word for this.....NOT EVEN MINE...ok? Your eternal life is dependent on you not anyone else. Remember when Jesus died and the vail of the temple ripped in two? That was so we would have direct access to him. We no longer have to depend on going thru priests to know and deal with God anymore. Jesus was that ladder (Jacobs ladder in Gen) that bridges the gap.

If you could sit down and read the gospels in order. You would see quite a picture of what the religious establishment thought of Jesus and He them. I don't think it's any different today. He had his harshest words against them. If HE was here today He would be considered a lunatic just like then. nothing new under the SUN (SON).









Reply #21 Top
Thanks for this piece, Doc. I'm not Catholic, nor am I likely to become so, but I do appreciate having these common misconceptions cleared up.
Reply #22 Top
Sola Scriptura


well I knew that...but I was wondering which verse? Cuz I didn't interpret just put them down and they speak for themselves.

My question to you would be......have you ever sat down and read the gospels yourself? Not the whole bible just the gospels?

Grace & Peace

Reply #23 Top

The topic of your post underscores the fears that many had during those debates. If the Pope spoke Ex Cathedra on say, abortion, (which he could in light of the Commandment not to kill), would a sitting Catholic president defy the law of the land? Would he be excommunicated if he did not? Europe has had it's share of problems with unity as well. Witness Henry VIII and the birth of the Church of England. That was personal interpretation and application run amok!

I dont think he can based upon the restrictions of Ex Cathedra.  If he did, it would truly split the church.  But it is not going to happen.  As for Johns (no pun intended), Kerry was running as JFK, so maybe it was just JFKs?

In years of late, I dont see another scism.  We have seen many sects spring up, but they have died out just as quickly as well.  With the scisms of the Protestant churches, I think there is a flavor for all now.

Reply #24 Top

Now remember my original question was for you to show me in scripture where the Pope is infalible in his ex Cathedra position.

The first condidtion is he is exCathedra.  There are more.  The scriptures do not say "Here is the rule", they only lend to the idea he can be.  And then the theologians went from there.  Jesus did not give us a church.  He gave us a faith. Man then made churches out of it.  And indeed, hans Kung, a very respected theologian, would agree with you.  That does not mean you are wrong, or they are wrong, just that a justification exists.

Reply #25 Top

Thanks for this piece, Doc. I'm not Catholic, nor am I likely to become so, but I do appreciate having these common misconceptions cleared up.

That is my goal!  Go to pat Robertson is you want to be converted!  I just like to clear up the mistakes.

Thanks Gid!  That is a great honor coming from you!