It's NOT just your fight.

from JoeUser Forums

Guilty until proven innocent, I see.  I see no reason to continue this conversation with someone who has such CLEAR comtempt for the Constitution.
End of quote

I've been blacklisted, or else I'd respond to this on the relevant thread.

When a person becomes a parent, they have an obligation to protect that child from whatevere they can.  They have a responsibility to place the welfare of that child before ANYTHING else.  ANYTHING.  Ture, there are some thing parents CANNOT protect their children from....but there are some things that ARE preventable. The security of the family unit should come before any political posturing a person wants to make. It should come before making a legal stance.  To jeopardize that is....well, it smacks of using children as pawns in a game of 'who's right'.  I'm sorry if people think that's harsh, but I think that refusing to do whatever it takes to keep your children living at home with you is a bit bloody harsh as well.

As for being guilty until proven innocent.....unfortunately, that's the way some government agencies work, CPS being one of them.   The police are the same way.  If a person is reportedly using drugs, for example, and is given the opportunity to prove their innocence by submitting a urine sample...well, why wouldn't they want to do that?  PROVE your innocence, SHOW that you have nothing to hide FIRST....worry about the legalities and constitutionality AFTER you've been exonerated.

I've had a run-in with CPS.  I pissed off some people in my old neighborhood, people who barely knew me and my family but who took umbridge to my personality and the way I do things.  They did an underhanded, cowardly thing, and they called CPS.  Numerous times.  It started with an allegation of my locking my children in the house alone, then when that was proven to be untrue they said that my house was filthy, my kids were always hungry, my son was wandering the streets with a butcher knife, attacking people, and finally that I was operating a house of prostitution, having sex with strangers in front of my kids.  In all, I believe that 5 or 6 complaints were made over the period of a year (and those are just the ones I know about).

When I was informed of these allegations, my first response was "what do I need to do to prove that this simply isn't true?".  It wasn't "this is unconstitutional and I'm not going to do it, I'm going to make a stand and prove my point at any cost"....my first concern was protecting my children and doing whatever it took to keep my family together. I let them in my home, they looked around at the unmade beds, the dishes in the sink, the laundry being folded on the couch...they spoke to my kids IN MY PRESENCE, and they went away satisfied that the allegations were completely unfounded and unsubstatiated.

To me, if a person has nothing to hide, they should first prove their innocence, THEN fight the legalities.  Keeping the family unit together and the children in the home should be the first priority, NOT proving a point. 

When it comes to fighting with DSS, it's NOT just the parent's fight.  There are kids involved, and they DESERVE to be protected.

Ww cannot protect our children from EVERYTHING.....but we have an OBLIGATION to protect them from what we can.

misc
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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

As for being guilty until proven innocent.....unfortunately, that's the way some government agencies work, CPS being one of them. The police are the same way. If a person is reportedly using drugs, for example, and is given the opportunity to prove their innocence by submitting a urine sample...well, why wouldn't they want to do that? PROVE your innocence, SHOW that you have nothing to hide FIRST....worry about the legalities and constitutionality AFTER you've been exonerated


Why??? Because if you do it your way the "arrest" is on your record "forever"! It will NEVER be taken off no matter what you do. And a lot of times the mere arrest is enough to deny you some things like a job. Or a TS security clearance. If that's the case the exoneration means diddely!
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

Because if you do it your way the "arrest" is on your record "forever"!

It's NOT an arrest!!!!!!  No criminal charges have been brought against him, DrM!!!!  Which only adds to my not understanding WHY he's doing what he's doing!

I never mentioned ANY arrest in the example I gave.  What if your boss came to you and said, "hey, there's been talk and we want you to take a piss test"...why would you NOT do it, if it meant keeping your job and source of income??!!

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Because if you do it your way the "arrest" is on your record "forever"! It will NEVER be taken off no matter what you do.


Wrong. You can get any arrest expunged and make it disappear with enough $$$. Like I've said, it's all about how much justice you can afford. I've seen it done many times.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

Wrong. You can get any arrest expunged and make it disappear with enough $$$

Thank you!  But still.....if it's NOT an arrest, if it's just your chance to remove any and all doubt and prove an allegation wrong....then why in the hell would you NOT do it?

Prove your innocence first, fight the system later.  Especially when it's NOT just you involved.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

I think Gid is in a panic, yes. Overreacting a tad, perhaps. And maybe hiding more of a past than he's comfortable sharing in public. (again, who could blame him?)

Me too, and that's all I meant when I said that his actions made me wonder what he had to hide.  I never implied that he was guilty, and I'm sorry that he took it that way......but if I'M starting to question his actions then you KNOW social services are too.  They've been around the block enough to know that a LOT of people who refuse to co-operate do so because they're guilty in some way.

You had good experiences with CPS, he hasnt. Nor have I, for that matter, and yes, I too would be EXTREMELY wary before opening my door to them again.

I don't think that ANY experience with CPS can be called 'good'....especially not when you're on the recieving end, anyway.  Mine was only 'good' because they believed my version of the events rather than the lies that were told about me.  I don't know how much of that has to do with my willingness to co-operate....but I honestly think that that played some part in it.  If they were to show up at my house this afternoon, would I be leery of them?  You bet your ass I would.  Would I want to know why there were there BEFORE I let them in the house?  Hell yes.  Would I stand in my doorway and argue my constitutional rights with them?  No, because it would be like arguing with a wall.

I KNOW Gid loves his kids, and I KNOW he's a good man, father, and husband.  I'm simply saying that I think he's going about fighting this the wrong way.  CPS want inside that house.  His bringing food to the door to show the town marshal isn't going to cut it with them...and they are a much, much bigger entity than Gideon is.  They WILL get access to the house, one way or another.  My fear is that what could have been taken care of with a home visit and a little assistance will end up with the kids being removed and criminal charges being brought.  That's not going to serve anybody involved any good at all.

The end results are going to be the same no matter what, Karen. I guess that's all I'm trying to say here. So let him make his stand, who knows, the local yokels down there just might learn something.

I see your point, but.....wouldn't the local yokels learn just as much if he let DSS in and showed them that there was no truth to the reports?  Wouldn't that course of action have the desired effect; wouldn't it send a message saying "you can try to fuck with me all you want to, but I'm innocent and I'm not afraid of you or your allegations"? 

The thing I REALLY too offence to and thought was totally uncalled for was being told that I have contempt for the constitution because it's simply not true.  And, blacklisting me over it smacks of cowardice as well.

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

As for being guilty until proven innocent.....unfortunately, that's the way some government agencies work, CPS being one of them. The police are the same way. If a person is reportedly using drugs, for example, and is given the opportunity to prove their innocence by submitting a urine sample...well, why wouldn't they want to do that? PROVE your innocence, SHOW that you have nothing to hide FIRST....worry about the legalities and constitutionality AFTER you've been exonerated

And that is unconstitutional, and that is how Hitler got started.  If we are going to roll over and let the government walk all over us, we have no need for the constitution.  Gideon is doing a great thing, and to denigrate it is to sacrafice your liberties.

'Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety'."  - Ben Franklin

Perhaps it is us who now deserve neither.  I think Gideon deserves a lot of support.  At least he is trying to make sure his children grow up in a LAND of the FREE and BRAVE.  I cannot say the same for many others, myself included.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Gideon is doing a great thing, and to denigrate it is to sacrafice your liberties.

It's FINE that he wants to do that.....but to involve his children?  To risk their security?  That's not cool, not at all.

I have to mention this as well:

many of you, if you had the power to do so, would probably deliberately word the contents of a report in such a way as to imply our guilt

That's utter bullshit.  To say that I would DELIBERATELY make a report that I had NO evidence to support, and to say that I would word said report to make him appear guilty?  That's contemptible. 

Gideon, you've lost your damn mind.  Your paranoia has got the better of you.

I've read all the blogs in question, Dr Guy. The paranoid idea that I or dharma or anyone else would somehow write a report to make him look guilty makes me want to puke.

As have I.  I've BEEN reading, and will continue to read....Bakerstreet is right, the very idea that I would do ANYTHING to hurt Gid or his family is...well, it's like a slap in the face. 

Like I said, I think he's truly lost his mind over this.

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think Gid's blacklisting of dharma shows the problem in this situation. It is apparently now a black and white issue for him, and either you're on his side or you aren't. He doesn't seem to be able to see any longer that the CPS worker in question didn't get up that morning laughing evily, ready to squash the consitutional rights of the innocent.

I think Gid has taken his moral standards and imposed them now to the point that anyone who differs is a threat. Not everyone agrees with him. Not everyone reads the Constitution to mean what he thinks it does. Not everyone who differs with him is morally wrong or out to get him.

He feels his rights are being tread on, and I agree that they are. What I think he lacks is realism. I'm not going to laugh at a mugger and tell him it is illegal to shoot me, and I'm not going to look at machine that destroys families every day and tell them they can't destroy mine. You pick your battles, or you don't fight many.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
JU acting up
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

To risk their security? That's not cool, not at all.

NO! TO ENSURE THEIR

If WE sacrarfice it, there is none left to risk now is there?

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

As have I. I've BEEN reading, and will continue to read....Bakerstreet is right, the very idea that I would do ANYTHING to hurt Gid or his family is...well, it's like a slap in the face.

That was not the issue.  The issue was you accusing him of having something to hide.  I found that very strange as you said it.  I would have expected it of others (notice Baker, I did not quote your quote, just your original statement).

Again I ask both of you, why should anyone in this country need to prove innocence?  That is so antithetical as to be totally abhorrent to everything I believe in.

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

He feels his rights are being tread on, and I agree that they are. What I think he lacks is realism.

Exactly.  I agree that the system is fucked up, but is now the time or even the situation to take on such an immense fight?  Hell no.  If it were me, I'd be more worried about keeping my kids than anything else.  I mean, if he succeeds in getting the law changed 10 years down the road, but his children have spent the rest of their lives in the foster care system...will he really have won?  I don't think so.

It is apparently now a black and white issue for him, and either you're on his side or you aren't. He doesn't seem to be able to see any longer that the CPS worker in question didn't get up that morning laughing evily, ready to squash the consitutional rights of the innocent.

Thing is, I'm on HIS side.  Or I was, until he said that I'd fabricate and word things so as to make him appear guilty.  That was the last straw for me, because it's simply not true. 

Like Baker said, you pick your battles.  Gid's picked one he can't win here.

Here's another thought, one that I'd really like answered: which is more important now?  Winning this fight about constitutionality, or keeping the kids with their parents?  I know what it looks like from where I'm standing.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

NO! TO ENSURE THEIR

How is he ensuring it?  HOW?  By pissing off CPS?  Because that's all he's doing right now.

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

I think Gid's blacklisting of dharma shows the problem in this situation.

No, I think it is the heat of the moment.  he has done it before.  I think his fuse is shorter than mine.  But I was very taken aback by Dharma's accusation of his guilt.  And if it had been me, and I was in his shoes, I would not swear I would not do the same.  But only temporarily.

That one hurt and I think is beneath Dharma.  I think they both need to pull back and cool down as I think Gideon's quote that Dharma has above (and I think you quoted as well on the other thread) indicates tempers are running a mite too high.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

How is he ensuring it? HOW? By pissing off CPS? Because that's all he's doing right now.

Sorry that was JU screwing up.  Their rights.  For if we chuck the constitution now, what are they going to grow up under?  We have already seen Ruth Buzzi's ideal!  NAMBLA for 12 year olds and INternational law rules!

If we chuck the Constitution, we have already sacraficed our children.  Maybe not today, but in their lifetime.

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

But I was very taken aback by Dharma's accusation of his guilt.

You call THIS an accusation???:

Even I'M starting to wonder exactly what it is that you don't want them to find out.....

Or this:

What are you hiding, Gid? Why are you so afraid to let them in your house?

You say I'm accusing him of guilt?  Did you even see this?:

Gideon, you really only cause more suspicion when you take a standoffish attitude with CPS. You could have ended this a few days ago with a simple invitation in your house to show them that no child is being abused. As it were, you now look to many as someone with something to hide, not a champion of freedom.

And I guess it doesn't matter that I said this:

You ask why we're all against you...well, we're not. MY main concern is for you to stay together, for DSS to NOT have any reason to remove your kids. The longer you fight, the more insistent they're going to get, until finally they're going to be LOOKING for reasons to remove your kids. I'm starting to get the feeling that you're being irresponsibly idealistic about this, and that your children are going to suffer because you wanted to make a stand. I KNOW you're a good dad, Gid. I KNOW that your children's well being is your priority. Don't compromise that. Let DSS come and see your home, then, when they've seen that the allegations are unfounded...THEN fight the constitutionality of their actions. Don't lose your kids over this. Which is better: keeping your kids at home with you and fighting AFTER the fact, or making a political point at the expense of your family?

No, DG, you just go right ahead and tell me that I accused him of guilt.  Pick and choose your quotes all you damn well want to.  Ignore that a lot of other people have expressed the same sentiments as I....pin the blame on me.

If I'M thinking that he's got something to hide, what the fuck do you think CPS are thinking?

 



 


 

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

Their rights. For if we chuck the constitution now, what are they going to grow up under?

my gawd.....so, you'd rather see them separated from their parents and grow up in the foster care system so that their dad didn't have to have his 4th amendment rights violated??

Nobody's talking about scrapping or chucking the constitution.  We're simply saying to prove his innocence and ensure the security of his family FIRST, then fight.  Allow them ONE chance to see his home and family, THEN tell them to shove it.

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
I do find the kind of sad that he could believe anyone here would lie or twist words to make him look guilty, just because we differ with him. Sadly, that is exactly what he is doing, twisting our words to make us look like part of the great moral evil just because we differ with him.

Frankly, I'm done with it. If he interprets what I have said to be some sort of belligerant attack on his ideals, or if he thinks I am some Roy Cohn that would slur him just because I disagree with him, then there's not much to talk about. It seems the damage is already done, no matter what happens with the CPS.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dharmagrl,

I didn't think anything you wrote was untoward. I do believe the man feels like he is under attack by CPS and he is fighting with you because he can't fight with them.

Don't take it personal.

Remember the "WHO would you die for?? post?

Isn't it odd how so many said they'd DIE for their kids, but they won't give up their "rights" for them...or what they perceive as being their rights?.

Plenty of families on this planet raise happy healthy families without the 4th amendment, or gasp even a constitution!

That doesn't mean I think we should throw it out.....for ME I would flush it down the toilet if it meant sacrificing my kids. But that's ME.....I'd have made a terrible Roman.....hehe....all "for the empire" and whatnot.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I wish you'd all cut the man a little break for some of the harsh things he's said today. He's stressin' hard, and these outbursts are not like him.He's having a *very* bad day, and who knows, once he calms down he might see things differently.


I agree with this 100%. We should just give him support and keep our opinions to ourselves....he's gonna have CPS opinions thrust down his throat soon enough......so maybe we should just let him vent.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
do find the kind of sad that he could believe anyone here would lie or twist words to make him look guilty, just because we differ with him. Sadly, that is exactly what he is doing, twisting our words to make us look like part of the great moral evil just because we differ with him.


Me too, mainly because I never thought I'd see the day when that would happen....

I wish you'd all cut the man a little break for some of the harsh things he's said today. He's stressin' hard, and these outbursts are not like him.



You're right (again) but......all we're trying to do is help and we're getting shit on because of it.

Dharmagrl,

I didn't think anything you wrote was untoward. I do believe the man feels like he is under attack by CPS and he is fighting with you because he can't fight with them.

Don't take it personal.

Remember the "WHO would you die for?? post?

Isn't it odd how so many said they'd DIE for their kids, but they won't give up their "rights" for them...or what they perceive as being their rights?.


Thank you for saying so. I didn't think so either.

I would do ANYTHING for my kids. I'd have every freakin' constitutional right I have burned if it meant that my kids could benefit from it. Rights without my family are meaningless......
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

And I guess it doesn't matter that I said this:

Dharma, until you calm down and realize what you did, I will bow out.  I respect both of you too much.  Sorry.

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Dharma, until you calm down and realize what you did, I will bow out.

I'm calm.  I'm just pointing out to you that I didn't accuse him of anything.  I simply said that I was beginning to think that he was hiding something, and I asked him what that could be.  I never said 'Gid, you have a filthy house and your starve and beat your kids'. 

I don't appreciate your implying that I don't know what I did, because I DO know what I did...and it's NOT what you're accusing me of.  So yeah, perhaps you better had bow out for a while.....

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
LW: If that is the way it sounded to me I'd agree. To me he isn't speaking like someone in need, worried about his state. He's speaking like someone who is politicizing a rotten situation and making it more rotten in the process. If this were a Gideon issue, I'd tend to humanize it more, but this is apparently a Libertarian issue.

THAT I can't excuse or feel sorry for. When he describes the townspeople that hate him I hear the exact thing he is trying to describe in his own words, and then I see it projected at me. If this were about his kids and his family, I'd be more apt to cut him some slack.

In reality this seems to be about sticking it to the man, thumbing his nose at assholes in his community, and the constitution. Maybe I'm not seeing how he really feels, but then that is all I am given to see.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm just pointing out to you that I didn't accuse him of anything.
-- Dharmagrl

Not explicitly or in so many words. I can see where those innocous words can be taken as a pointing finger. If I was in Gideon's place, I would (quite likely) take them as an accusation, as well.

Imagine for me, if you will. A man torn apart. The love and devotion he has for his children is being used a weapon against him by spiteful, vicious people (not CPS). They are banking on the fact that most people would cave under the pressure and a) submit and be abused by CPS for the next 17 years or b) run away. Either of which would support their goal of making his life miserable.

This same man decides that he's had enough. No more running. No more slinking away in the dark. The small, evil people in town aren't going to win. So, he decides to fight. He's sick and tired of having his love and devotion turned against him.

During all of this stress and anxiety, he turns to a group of people that he thinks of as ... friends, of a sort. A group of similarly minded people that he can use as a sounding board or for sympathy. What does he find? Most of the people disagree with him. Ordinarily, this wouldn't phase him in the least. In these trying circumstances ... he snaps. Every "let them in, they'll leave" is at odds with the stubborn pride and righteous indignation that is welling up inside. Every "what have you got to hide?" pokes into the well of doubts deep inside that ripple over and add flame to the fire that is boiling.

Imagine a scene from a Peanuts movie (pick one, they all have this scene in there somewhere). Charlie Brown has screwed up again. Each of the folks that are supposedly his friends stops by his thoughts to tear into him while he trudges home. Even his dog abandons him to ridicule. Now, it doesn't matter whether or not his friends would actually do this, it's how Charlie Brown THINKS they would react.

Now, change Charlie Brown to Gideon. Can you understand his reaction? I can. It's not necessarily the RIGHT reaction, but it's a valid reaction. It would be my reaction, if I was in Gideon's shoes.