All atheists, heretics and agnostics will be crushed.

Definition of a good Christian:Someone who goes to church every Sunday to show off their new clothes or jewelry.

It's not a fair definition at all but I do see where you're coming from with this! There are some sharp dressers out there!

The children being brought up athiest are being told, in no uncertain terms, that they are to either recite the pledge as is and thus proclaim something that is not true, OR, omit the words and say an incomplete pledge that can be held against you in the schoolyards, and just about any other social arena, of life.

Don't you think a child will get confuse by this? If the parents are non-believers, most times the child is taught to be as well, however the good thing would be is to let the child make that choice, IMO.

Reply By: God(Anonymous User)Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005All atheists, heretics and agnostics will be crushed.

You're a troll and not honest enough to come out of hiding and say something sensible!

Dobule post

Don't you think a child will get confuse by this? If the parents are non-believers, most times the child is taught to be as well, however the good thing would be is to let the child make that choice, IMO.

Again, though, what choice is better? Here is the full, official pledge with the two words. Omit them and risk being ostracized (sp?) or speak them, even if you don't believe them or aren't sure what to believe.

Or, leave the words out of the official pledge and allow them the choice to add them in at their discretion, if they so desire and/or believe.

If the parents are believers, they may very well teach their child to add the words in. If the child decides to grow up athiest (or agnostic, or whatever), they can then choose to omit the words and still say the full, official pledge. If athiest (or whatever) parents teach their children the pledge without the two extra words, it is within reality to believe that if the child should find God (in whatever form), they will also find the two extra words and, again, add them in at their own discretion.

My point is, if the two words are left in, you leave some people saying a pledge that they either do not truly mean, or they say an unofficial, less than complete pledge.

Omit them and risk being ostracized (sp?)

It looks ok to me.

If the parents are believers, they may very well teach their child to add the words in. If the child decides to grow up athiest (or agnostic, or whatever), they can then choose to omit the words and still say the full, official pledge. If athiest (or whatever) parents teach their children the pledge without the two extra words, it is within reality to believe that if the child should find God (in whatever form), they will also find the two extra words and, again, add them in at their own discretion.

Yes you're right, the parent will teach the child to believe what they do. In my last comment about the child being confused, what I should have clarify (made more clear with my response) was that the child might be confused as to why he's not suppose to say the Pledge with or without the word God. Being that he/she has been taught by the parents from they are young about what the parents believed, if he/she still is pretty young, are they old enough to make that decision as to why they are not to say the Pledge or the words? Probably not if that child is too young to fully grasp it all.

'What is it about God that Atheists fear so much?'
Er, I think you've got this the wrong way round, foreverserenity. To quote just one of several similar quotes from the Bible:
'That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.' (Joshua 4:24.)

So it is BELIEVERS who fear God, not atheists. I don't believe in the existence of God, so how can I fear him? As dharmagrl says, 'You can't fear something you don't believe in.'

(That said, I do believe in the existence of people who believe in God. And some of them - not all by any means, just SOME - are pretty scary in my book!)

I have never read such panzy ass crap in my recent life.
First of all, how can you be an atheist and fear God? Did that require any real thought, or was it rambling?

Atheist means no belief in god, how can you fear what you don't believe. How do you put that together in your mind. "Oh, since theres a God and atheist "deny" God so atheist fear God".

Shit how about "Oh, since there is not God, we got these people running around believing in this non-existent being, what other things may they believe in that could harm us atheist"?

Secondly what atheist fear, is people, not God. People that believe in God and fear for those people that hate atheist. Ever hear of the crusades?

Please think about what your saying from point of view before being totally nonsensical.

foxjazz: No need to be such a jerk. ForeverSerenity is a sweet, sincere person. If you had read any of her previous postings you would know this. There's no doubt in my mind that she posted this blog in the spirit of seeking understanding (and perhaps a bit of frustration at the recent ruling) rather than one of divisive rambling.

I've never heard of a quiet atheist.

That's because they’re quiet. I think most atheists are happy to let theists get on with their beliefs, without imposing their views. Loud, arrogant atheists can be more noticeable than quiet atheists, just as loud, arrogant Christians can be more noticeable than quiet Christians. But quiet atheists and quiet Christians will normally remain quiet. Atheists do what they do because they do what they do.

We all have different points of view, and our views about deeper issues of existence differ because we’re all at different stages of spiritual growth. Most atheists will remain an atheist throughout the duration of their life because that’s 'where they’re at' in their journey. The journey carries on throughout many other lifetimes, however, (in my view), and the more lifetimes we live the more we grow spiritually, and the more our views and perspectives change until we get a good picture of the way things really are. Theism is more on the ball than atheism, in my view.

If I SAW God tomorrow . . . then I would throw myself on his mercy. . . . However - I do not think that is going to happen.

As we grow spiritually, our inner-eyes begin to open. We become "awake", to coin an Eastern phrase, (or "born again", to coin a fundie phrase). We begin to see that life is beautiful and that there’s no such thing as death. As we learn that there’s deeper purpose to life, and that life is eternal, we basically begin to see God, albeit via an inner sense. Over a period of time, (which can span over many lifetimes), our inner-sense blossoms, not unlike a flower blossoms, until we see God - and life's purpose - as clear as day.

This whole thing could be just as easily turned around as "Why do Christians fear science?"  Which of course, most don't.

I could care less whether someone believes in God or not.  I only care when they try to shove their religion down my throat such as trying to teach creationism in the class room or trying to have teachers lead the class in prayer and such things (I support a moment of silence).

Being that he/she has been taught by the parents from they are young about what the parents believed, if he/she still is pretty young, are they old enough to make that decision as to why they are not to say the Pledge or the words? Probably not if that child is too young to fully grasp it all.

Actually, that's not necessarily the case. My daughter is a staunch Athiest/Agnostic, despite our having raised her in an atmosphere of open-mindedness. She refuses to say the words 'under God' and has run into some trouble at school for doing so. My youngest believes wholeheartedly in god, so has no issue including those words in the recitation.

Some kids actually have minds of their own, y'know....and they aren't afraid to express them.

The religious child carries his faith with him everywhere he goes.

So true.

Despite my lack of belief in a god, my children profess faith in God and I encourage them to explore and practice their own faith. If it's something they believe in and it can be a constructive force in their lives, then it would be tragic for me to trample that.

You're a great mom, TW. I think this is a wonderful perspective!

I think most atheists are actualy agnostic...

The difference being that an atheist doesn't believe in God, and an agnostic isn't sure? Is that right?

By internal resources, I mean that I live my life to be good to the people around me without needing god to act as a middle man. There's one less step, and thus being good is more instinctive to me because I do it for the sake of being good, not for fear of going to hell.

Speaking as a Christian, I don't try to be good for fear of going to hell, or for fear of what God will do to me if I don't. My salvation rests in absolutely nothing that I do... it's only by the grace of God that I have eternal life. Does having God in my life help me to be a better person? I hope so in the fact that as He lives in me, I operate within the power of His Holy Spirit and am being transformed to be more like Christ. I think of it like this:

Mike and Sam are passing an apple orchard that Sam's father owns. Mike suggests that the two jump the fence and take some apples, even though Sam's father has explicitly told them to stay out of the orchard. Sam doesn't want to. Mike tells Sam, "You're just afraid of what your father will do to you if we get caught." Sam replies, "No. I'm not afraid of punishment... but disobeying my father like that would break his heart. I don't want to disappoint him."

That's how I feel about obedience. I don't do it because I fear the wrath of hell... or the hands of an angry God. I obey (to the best of my ability) because I want to please my Father.

I've worshipped with people who are Pentecostal, Baptists, Anglican, Seventh Day Adventist, Catholic, Church of Christ, Church of God; although all are of the same faith, everyone thinks differently.

I'd be willing to bet you would find people within each of those groups that don't consider that they are all of the same faith. They may all believe in a generic "God", but aside from that, some of those denominations have very little in common.

I'm a child of his and so are all of you.

How can you be a child of someone you don't believe in? Forgive me. My Calvinist roots are showing. *s*

A Good Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ, and leads a good life, providing for others a living breathing example of God's love and majesty. This tends to however fly in the face of what churches try to pull off. A Church is the political spin wrapped around a faith. You don't need a church to be a Christian or know God... Many confuse going to church with being a Christian.

So true, Zoomba. That said, the Bible still states to "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." (Heb. 10:25)

So it is BELIEVERS who fear God, not atheists.

Different kind of fear, though. The Hebrew word is "yare'" and it really means to revere. Not shaking in your boots fear... but rather respect. Here's my anagram...

F - faithfully
E - expressing
A - awesome
R - reverence

I can be such a jerk, because all of this is OLD news for me. Maybe it snew for foreverserenity, but not for me.

People should care about what others believe. Especially Christians, that is why they can be dangerous. Doesn't the Bible say "Recruit recruit recruit?" Spread the "good news".
Christians by definition care what others thing, otherwise they are "quiet hypocrits".

Atheist don't have to give a shit about anything when it comes to God beliefs, cause it isn't necessary to be happy or have a good life.

Or better yet, read George H. Smith on Atheism. At least its honest.

The reason there is so many arguments about religion is the use of Faith.

We "critical thinkers" the type of atheist that has honor have reverence for Integrity. We have reverence for Science, we have reverence for many things and values in truth.

I was Christian once, and I tell you this. During that time in my life, I was lost. Just plain lost person thinking I am found.
Teaching about the bible and concepts of God is probably a good thing. Provided their taught in a class that uses Logic and Reason.
Teaching about the Bible in schools is a good thing, provided it's taught in a reasonable context. Which may be offensive to many Christians.
Every read the "Jesus Mysteries"?

Look what Religion did to the twin towers. Yes religion did that, doesn't mater what type.

Good luck with that:

Regards
foxjazz

HC wrote:""" A Good Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ, and leads a good life, providing for others a living breathing example of God's love and majesty. This tends to however fly in the face of what churches try to pull off. A Church is the political spin wrapped around a faith. You don't need a church to be a Christian or know God... Many confuse going to church with being a Christian. """"

Let me tell you, its human nature to condem. Even as a "Good Christian" thumbs his nose and condemns others that don't believe the same.
I have seen it time and time again. There is not one Christian that doen't Judge. Never seen a one.

FEAR. This is why the english language is so messed up.

definition:
1 To be afraid or frightened of.
2 To be uneasy or apprehensive about: feared the test results.
3 To be in awe of; revere.

Now if your going to use the English language to say Be in Awe of "just say it". Don't make it something it's not.
Fear is most common in the 1st definition which is by far far away from number 3.

So please when you write something be very clear what you mean. And it still makes no sense to fear something that aint' there.
Whether it be definition 1, 2 or 3.

I categorize "those" types as antitheists, not atheists, because I personally have known many atheists over my lifetime, and the vast majority have no problem with my expression of religion in my personal life. Weddings, reunions, barbeques, etc, that I have hosted have been places where most have willingly bowed their heads with the rest of us, even though they didn't echo our sentiments.

But, you see, such understanding must be mutual. When I am at events hosted by THEM, if I pray before a meal, I do so silently and relatively inconspicuously. They deserve the same level of respect that I do.

I believe that many (not ALL; some are just A**HOLES!) antitheist reactions are responses to a lifetime of experiencing people of various religious persuasions who do NOT practice such mutual respect. I could be wrong on this, but it seems to be the case, in my experience, at least.

and a fanatical devotion to the pope!

"an ALMOST fanatical devotion to the pope!"

Forty lashes for misquoting Monty Python!

HC wrote:""" A Good Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ, and leads a good life, providing for others a living breathing example of God's love and majesty. This tends to however fly in the face of what churches try to pull off. A Church is the political spin wrapped around a faith. You don't need a church to be a Christian or know God... Many confuse going to church with being a Christian. """"

Actually... HC didn't write that. She quoted it.

An atheist depends ironically on God's existence. If indeed God did not exist then neither would the atheist, for there would be nothing to be against.

One man, who is an Atheist, going into a court of a law to demand that the words "under god" be taken out of something that has been around for a long time, even though the two words themselves were only added in the 1980's, does interfare with my rights when he doesn't want them utttered publicly.

the pledge of allegiance is less than 100 years old. it was written by a socialist (a french socialist to boot). the two words were added in the 50s. there are christians who believe pledging allegiance to a flag violates the commandment forbidding worshipping graven images; there are other christians who believe it is idolatry to give to the nation that which is owed only to god.

incidentally, our judicial system is not derived from any form of theism. it's no crime to pledge allegiance to a graven image.

An atheist depends ironically on God's existence. If indeed God did not exist then neither would the atheist, for there would be nothing to be against.

Good logic, Steven. I like it.

read George H. Smith on Atheism. At least its honest.

That's a good book foxjazz. But Smith exclusively focuses on a fundamentalist wavelength, (maybe because he's not aware of any other.) Smith's case against God is a straw man, because he doesn't admit that there's more to theism and religious revelations than shallow, literal interpretations and narrow views. One cannot make a successful case against God, because by definition, our finite minds cannot comprehend the 'Infinite Reality'. (It's actually "good news" for us that the Truth cannot be thwarted. It's nothing to get bitter about.)

Atheists don’t fear God they fear religion. For every positive influence religion has on society there are even more negative ones. As an Agnostic, ( which to me means I don’t know how or why we are here and I’m okay with that ), I don’t want religion to have any influence over my life. Many view this war as just another in a long list of religious power struggles. I’ve lost family to this war so it’s obviously having an effect on my life. History has taught us we should be afraid of religion having too much power.

You say you don’t understand how someone could not believe in god but you do understand. Belief is belief, whether you believe something exist or doesn’t exist it’s the same thing. There is as much evidence that God doesn’t exist, as there is that he does.

Atheism is as much a religion as any other belief and in many ways even more potentially dangerous. It is conservative thought without at least some moral guidance. Hitler was an Atheist. It allows someone to feel genetically superior to others. Slavery and ethnic cleansing are brought to you by conservative thought. Of course now liberals are killing them with kindness but that’s another argument.

Conservative and some religious ideals are in fact why freedom isn’t free. All wars ever fought are conservatives fighting conservatives, or liberals and conservatives fighting to be free from more extreme conservative and religious influence. If you feel this is incorrect please tell me of any war fought between liberals countries or organizations, or show me a power hungry liberal dictator or tyrant at any point in history.

An atheist depends ironically on God's existence. If indeed God did not exist then neither would the atheist, for there would be nothing to be against.

Close, however not upon existence of god does the atheist depend, but upon the existence of the theist. Both can exist in the complete absence of god.

So it is BELIEVERS who fear God, not atheists.

Believers should fear God, especially since he can be so awsome, his powers boundless!

I don't believe in the existence of God, so how can I fear him? As dharmagrl says, 'You can't fear something you don't believe in.'

T'is true, you cannot fear what you don't believe in. And I won't say more on that because in doing so it might seems as if I'm trying to persuade you to think otherwise, and I'm not.

That said, I do believe in the existence of people who believe in God. And some of them - not all by any means, just SOME - are pretty scary in my book!)

Haha, you're right about that. I don't mess with some of those folks myself. Not because I'm afraid of them, just because they can be too darn difficult to have a conversation with!

I have never read such panzy ass crap in my recent life.First of all, how can you be an atheist and fear God? Did that require any real thought, or was it rambling?

Er...OK.....I've never heard ANY panzy ass crap myself...interesting terminology! If you read my entire article and not just the first couple of sentences and if you also read everyone's comments and my replies you might want to rephrase your comment!

foxjazz: No need to be such a jerk. ForeverSerenity is a sweet, sincere person. If you had read any of her previous postings you would know this. There's no doubt in my mind that she posted this blog in the spirit of seeking understanding (and perhaps a bit of frustration at the recent ruling) rather than one of divisive rambling.

Thanks Tex. I did point that out to him...to read the previous postings and the entire article for that matter.

think most atheists are happy to let theists get on with their beliefs, without imposing their views. Loud, arrogant atheists can be more noticeable than quiet atheists, just as loud, arrogant Christians can be more noticeable than quiet Christians. But quiet atheists and quiet Christians will normally remain quiet.

Yes Andy, I agree with you here that those who are more arrogant, and loud, will be more noticeable.

We all have different points of view, and our views about deeper issues of existence differ because we’re all at different stages of spiritual growth. Most atheists will remain an atheist throughout the duration of their life because that’s 'where they’re at' in their journey. The journey carries on throughout many other lifetimes, however, (in my view), and the more lifetimes we live the more we grow spiritually, and the more our views and perspectives change until we get a good picture of the way things really are.

Andy I'm impress, your argument here is very reasonable and dare I say profound!

As we grow spiritually, our inner-eyes begin to open. We become "awake", to coin an Eastern phrase, (or "born again", to coin a fundie phrase). We begin to see that life is beautiful and that there’s no such thing as death. As we learn that there’s deeper purpose to life, and that life is eternal, we basically begin to see God, albeit via an inner sense. Over a period of time, (which can span over many lifetimes), our inner-sense blossoms, not unlike a flower blossoms, until we see God - and life's purpose - as clear as day.

Again, profound!! I am very pleased that you explain your idea of spirituality so well. I'm sure others will agree with this logic.

This whole thing could be just as easily turned around as "Why do Christians fear science?" Which of course, most don't.

True and true to both Brad. Most of us don't as you said. Speaking for myself, I know I don't.

I could care less whether someone believes in God or not.

I really don't either, however for me, it is comforting to know that there are others who do as well. At the same time, for me, it is seeking knowledge of what I know nothing about that has me asking questions and putting my thoughts out there.

Actually, that's not necessarily the case. My daughter is a staunch Athiest/Agnostic, despite our having raised her in an atmosphere of open-mindedness. She refuses to say the words 'under God' and has run into some trouble at school for doing so. My youngest believes wholeheartedly in god, so has no issue including those words in the recitation.Some kids actually have minds of their own, y'know....and they aren't afraid to express them.

That is good Dharma, that your child does understand and can stand up for herself. It is also good that you're raising them in an athmosphere of open-mindedness. Oh I absolutely know kids do have their own feelings and thoughts and will stand up for themselves as most of them do. More power to them! I'm glad when they are like that.

it's only by the grace of God that I have eternal life. Does having God in my life help me to be a better person? I hope so in the fact that as He lives in me, I operate within the power of His Holy Spirit and am being transformed to be more like Christ.

I agree with you there and feel the same way!

I'd be willing to bet you would find people within each of those groups that don't consider that they are all of the same faith. They may all believe in a generic "God", but aside from that, some of those denominations have very little in common.

You right about that, they may all disagree with being of the same faith. But they all do serve one God (at least I hope they do!) and this is what I meant when I said that they are all of the same faith. Christianity has so many divisions (and I mean this both literally and linguistically [or should that be in theory?]), the each group has their own way of doing things, most of them, if not all, have re-written the bible to suit their own teachings or concept of what they believe. But all this difference doesn't matter to God, as long as what they do follows the same path that leads to Him.

How can you be a child of someone you don't believe in?

Because we are all of this earth, of this universe, whether you believe in him or not we are all God's children.

People should care about what others believe.

Absolutely, we should all care about what each other believe if for nothing else but out of respect for each other.

Doesn't the Bible say "Recruit recruit recruit?" Spread the "good news".

I don't know which Bible says that but we are told to spread the word of God. It is not however something that is duty bound although other Christians might feel differently about that.

Or better yet, read George H. Smith on Atheism. At least its honest

I'll take this suggestion under consideration.

I was Christian once, and I tell you this. During that time in my life, I was lost. Just plain lost person thinking I am found.

It is unfortunate that you had such a bad experience with Christianity. I know it's terribly difficult for the believer who is among those who are not true leaders and believer of the faith. The cause for disillusionment is strong under circumstances like that. My husband also experienced disillusionment because of people like that who claimed to be Christians and who should have lead by example and nurture his growth in the faith. It is unfortunate that there are those who give Christianity a "bad name" so to speak. I too have experienced such misrepresentations and only my strong beliefs and personal quest for what I know carried me through.

Every read the "Jesus Mysteries"?

No, I haven't.

Look what Religion did to the twin towers. Yes religion did that, doesn't mater what type.

Yes, people who were fundamentalists and warped in their thinking of their religion did that. They however, are not a good excuse as to why you shouldn't believe in anything. They are the antithesis as to why we all should believe in something.

Let me tell you, its human nature to condem. Even as a "Good Christian" thumbs his nose and condemns others that don't believe the same.I have seen it time and time again. There is not one Christian that doen't Judge.

Some Christians can be judgmental. However the same can be said of everyone. We make presumptions no matter how open and forgiving an individual is, somehow we do judge, albeit unintentionally, because it is what we as humans do.

that I have hosted have been places where most have willingly bowed their heads with the rest of us, even though they didn't echo our sentiments.But, you see, such understanding must be mutual. When I am at events hosted by THEM, if I pray before a meal, I do so silently and relatively inconspicuously. They deserve the same level of respect that I do.

And this is done out of respect by you and your friends. Mutual understanding is definately all that one can ask for. Without it there is nothing, no respect, no friendship.

I believe that many (not ALL; some are just A**HOLES!) antitheist reactions are responses to a lifetime of experiencing people of various religious persuasions who do NOT practice such mutual respect. I could be wrong on this, but it seems to be the case, in my experience, at least.

From what I've read and what I do understand now, I definately agree with you on this!

"an ALMOST fanatical devotion to the pope!" Forty lashes for misquoting Monty Python!

Haha...

An atheist depends ironically on God's existence. If indeed God did not exist then neither would the atheist, for there would be nothing to be against.

Quite a logical response Stevendedalus! How else would anyone know they don't believe, and how else would those who do, know that they do believe and or not Atheist? Apparently one does not exist without the other. To everything there is an opposite, this is true!

the two words were added in the 50s

I must of read incorrectly because I read they were added in the 80's, now I wished I remember where I saw that!

there are christians who believe pledging allegiance to a flag violates the commandment forbidding worshipping graven images; there are other christians who believe it is idolatry to give to the nation that which is owed only to god.

Personally, I've never heard of any that do, but you could be right about this. If they do believe that to say it is worshipping a graven image then they will object to saying it.

That's a good book foxjazz. But Smith exclusively focuses on a fundamentalist wavelength, (maybe because he's not aware of any other.) Smith's case against God is a straw man, because he doesn't admit that there's more to theism and religious revelations than shallow, literal interpretations and narrow views. One cannot make a successful case against God, because by definition, our finite minds cannot comprehend the 'Infinite Reality'. (It's actually "good news" for us that the Truth cannot be thwarted. It's nothing to get bitter about.)

Thanks for the brief review!

For every positive influence religion has on society there are even more negative ones

I will agree with you here.

I don’t want religion to have any influence over my life

Of course this is your right!

I’ve lost family to this war

I'm so sorry for your loss.

You say you don’t understand how someone could not believe in god but you do understand. Belief is belief, whether you believe something exist or doesn’t exist it’s the same thing. There is as much evidence that God doesn’t exist, as there is that he does.

You're right, in a "round-a-about" way (as some might say) you make sense. It might not sound logical but it is.

Conservative and some religious ideals are in fact why freedom isn’t free. All wars ever fought are conservatives fighting conservatives, or liberals and conservatives fighting to be free from more extreme conservative and religious influence. If you feel this is incorrect please tell me of any war fought between liberals countries or organizations, or show me a power hungry liberal dictator or tyrant at any point in history.

To give you an honest answer, I don't know if you're wrong or not. I do agree that "liberals and conservatives fighting to be free from more extreme conservative and religious influence", Because when our freedom, our very existence and way of being is threatened we will stand up to the aggressor and we will want to correct the wrongs. There have been and are so many power hungry dictators. I don't know any who may have been or may be liberal though because they all seem to believe in their own causes and consider themselves to be "gods" hence the dictatorship!