Do guns make New Orleans a safer place?

Had guns not been so readily available, would this problem have been a lot easier to resolve?

You say this as if everyone that has a gun on the streets of N.O. this evening got their firearm legally, when they in fact acquired them by looting and stealing them.  What are the owners of the gun stores supposed todo - stay with their store and drown trying to stop a few eejits from illegally taking their stock?

 

No, but thats kind of my point.

What if there had been less weapons in the shops? Hell... What if firearms were illegal?

(Like almost every other modern/westernised country in the world!)

Would the whole situation have been better without guns

If it hadn't been guns, it would have been knives, or anything else that people could get their hands on or fashion into a weapon.  Have you ever watched any documentaries about prisons?  If you have, then you'll have seen that the prisoners will use ANYTHING for a weapon.  Sharpened toothbrushes, ballpoint pens...ANYTHING.  My husband runs a jail, he's seen it (and continues to see it).

You cant put a helicopter off course with a sharpened toothbrush. Might have saved a couple more lives at least.

What if there had been less weapons in the shops? Hell... What if firearms were illegal?

Haven't you seen the crime rates and methods in the UK?  (By the way, your usage of the word 'shop' rather than 'store' suggests to me that you're british)  britan doesn't have guns, but they've got knives...and the Independent reported recently that some British doctors and politicians were calling for a ban on knives over a certain length becuase of all the violent crime that was being committed with them.

Violence is violence is violence.....it's just the delivery method that changes.

You cant put a helicopter off course with a sharpened toothbrush

Oh please.  You've been watching too much TV.

Depends on which end of the gun you're on, I'm off for there tonight to clear out my sister's stuff, and we're taking two twelve-gauges. Good times.

Interesting question...Hopefully my reply is just as interesting.

Ok, if there were absolutely no guns, yes, it would be a little more safe. However, it's not like there weren't armed gang bangers in New Orleans before Katrina came around. If you were trapped in New Orleans at this point, would you rather be trapped there with, or without a gun? (((I remind you also that, since it is illegal for convicted felons to carry guns, most the gang bangers in the city carry their guns illegally)))

In the next few weeks we are going to start to understand the full impact of what happens when household chemicals, vehicle fluids, industrial chemicals, and the bodies of dead animals and people get all mixed together in a flood. The environmental impact of these toxins are going to be a much bigger problem for recovery than any amound of guns have been. So, did law abiding citizens owning all these chemicals and toxins make New Orleans a safer place? For that matter, basic American freedom has made the disaster much worse that it could have been... should we make all freedoms illegal, for the sake of "safety"?

I’m just of the opinion that if it only takes 4 days for people to start looting, shooting, raping and killing each other - in America, then there has to be something wrong with the way things are... It shouldn’t take just 4 days for things to go that sour! Should it?

The way I see it, it could be down to a few key points... (Please add to this list if you think of other major areas)

1. Guns (Lots of..)
2. Extreme poverty / oppression
3. Gang mentality

1. Guns made the most sense to me. At least for the immediate reaction... When you have a gun and you are helpless, having that gun will make you feel less helpless. You are also much more likely to use it. Even if its to defend your wrecked empty house that’s going to have to be flattened anyway (if it makes it through to the next week). Many BAD people already have guns. When the stores were deserted, many of those bad people went to get more FREE guns! Half of which will never be recovered!

2. Poverty in the extreme oppresses people like nothing many of us have even known. Even if we are hard up, we at least still have access to the Internet. When any kind of oppression is lifted - for example - when Saddam was overthrown in Iraq - people go berserk. Looting. Stealing. They take what they want, when they want! A real sense of freedom can come out. The problem with New Orleans residents getting like this was that it was purely instinctive. It really didn’t serve anyone very well! In a place with no electricity for 80 miles, a 42" plasma screen isn’t much use.

I think the reason normal people started looting, was because for the first time in their lives, they had access to all the things they had always wanted! Even if it meant, "stealing" to get it. Most Americans are not too dumb to forget that Wal-Mart has insurance! "I don’t need to feel that bad for stealing something from a deserted, flooded mega-store!!"

3. When gangs are given a free-reign, they are going to explode! Gang mentality is already that of a kind of outlaw. Given no police, they are likely to feel like they have been promoted, and given a license to do all the things they talked about. Any gang activity will be increased, and heightened and people will be forced to defend themselves! Back to the point about guns....

Depends on which end of the gun you're on, I'm off for there tonight to clear out my sister's stuff, and we're taking two twelve-gauges. Good times.

What is your country coming to? How can you say the words "Good Times" when by this time tomorrow you might have killed someone!?

So, did law abiding citizens owning all these chemicals and toxins make New Orleans a safer place? For that matter, basic American freedom has made the disaster much worse that it could have been... should we make all freedoms illegal, for the sake of "safety"?

I think we can all clearly see a difference between household chemicals and firearms here.

"Basic American Freedom" is also a strange term when talking about the right to bear arms. I feel free, but Im not allowed a gun!

Haven't you seen the crime rates and methods in the UK? (By the way, your usage of the word 'shop' rather than 'store' suggests to me that you're british) britan doesn't have guns, but they've got knives...and the Independent reported recently that some British doctors and politicians were calling for a ban on knives over a certain length becuase of all the violent crime that was being committed with them. Violence is violence is violence.....it's just the delivery method that changes.

"Just the delivery method" ?

I see the crime rates in the UK, and they are nothing like that of the US! I suspect a lot more Brits would be killed if all the crazy people who go around stabbing others had access to guns!! I can run away from someone with a knife a lot easier than someone with a glock.

"Had guns not been so readily available, would this problem have been a lot easier to resolve?"

I always find it funny when people use this excuse for guns, but if I were to say the same thing about drugs they'd go nuts. There will always be access to guns just as there will always be access to drugs. As long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

So, these people would still have guns. On the other hand people who want to obey the law probably wouldn't. Guns are legal, though restricted in the UK, as in most of the world. As long as people blame crime on guns, crime won't be addressed.

I think we can all clearly see a difference between household chemicals and firearms here. "Basic American Freedom" is also a strange term when talking about the right to bear arms. I feel free, but Im not allowed a gun!

Way to not answer any comment I made. There is NOT a clear difference between the chemicals that now float around freely in New Orleans flooding and guns. Both contribute to the problem. The chemicals will end up causing a much bigger problem than the guns, and guns are no more or less dangerous than clorox or rat poison.

Notice I didn't say "right to bear arms" I said, "basic American freedoms"... like the right to not evacuate when the order goes out. If the military moved in and loaded everyone up in busses, threatening to shoot anyone who resisted, the evacuation would have been a matter of a few hours the day before Katrina made landfall.

The point is, there is nothing safe about New Orleans right now (with or without guns), so your whole premise is pointless.

btw.... I had a paramedic partner from England who used to laugh every time he heard someone talk about how there are no guns in England. He was raised with guns, he and his father went shooting at the Gun Club quite often. It seems that there is a right to have guns in England... as long as you can afford to be a member of a gun club. Apparently in Merry Old England "rights" are a matter of money... and nothing else.

There will always be access to guns just as there will always be access to drugs. As long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

That’s a cop out. You can’t churn out guns from your basement in the same way you can grow weed, or make pills. I know... its possible, but gun smuggling regs can be tightened. You don’t get many people flying in from Jamaica with an Uzi up their arse!

Way to not answer any comment I made.

Sorry boss... Didn’t mean to skip it. I totally agree with what you are saying about the chemicals. Its going to be a nightmare. Worse than the gun situation I suspect. Things are not going to be safe there for a long time. Sewage, household waste, chemicals, industry pollution... None of it is helping the situation on the ground.

What I meant was that most people require cleaning products for everyday life (some will say they don't, but lets not be pedantic)... This is surely not the case with weapons?

. Apparently in Merry Old England "rights" are a matter of money... and nothing else.

I never said guns were banned in the UK, you just have to apply to get them and its a much more difficult process than it is in the US. I’m not allowed a gun as I’m not a member of a gun club and don’t really want to be!

ALL hand-held firearms (pistols, SMGs etc) are illegal. Gun clubs allow rifles and shotguns etc. In fact, my girlfriend’s father has two shotguns for bird shooting.

Fire-arms offences are on the up in the UK, but they are never going to get to the same levels as they are in the US per capita because most people would find it difficult to get a gun.

ANYWAY!!! We are getting sidetracked!! I’m not sure why you all feel the need to discuss the UK??! I never brought it up!

Lets try to keep the focus on the question. Guns in New Orleans right now... ??? People shooting each other after a few days of flooding.

Or cant you bear to have a foreigner bring up sensitive issues such as US gun law?!

You don’t get many people flying in from Jamaica with an Uzi up their arse!

Actually, you'd be surprised how many folks DO smuggle weapons that way.

Or cant you bear to have a foreigner bring up sensitive issues such as US gun law?!

It's not that we can't bear it, it's that you have preconcieved notions about the culture here when in reality you know very little about it (except for what you've seen on TV). Most Brits who've never lived in the US seem to think that we have ahoot-outs on the streets of every American town every day, and that's just not the case. I'm British, Ive lived here for 16 years (and in some shit hole places like The Bronx, New York) and I've NEVER seen a shoot-out. I even worked with the police department and carried a gun on duty daily and I've NEVER had to unholster my weapon to arrest or apprehend anyone. EVER. Neither has my husband, who not only is a military police officer but who also worked with the civilian PD too.

Like I said, you watch too much TV.

Are you seriously telling me that people put Uzi's up their asses? Get real. A PPK maybe?! Im sure metal detectors would pick up something like that!

Ive been to the US enough to know that shootings are not something everyone has to deal with. Im not talking about that. Im talking about the ...

...oh... f*ck it.

Cant be bothered.

"That’s a cop out. You can’t churn out guns from your basement in the same way you can grow weed, or make pills. I know... its possible, but gun smuggling regs can be tightened. You don’t get many people flying in from Jamaica with an Uzi up their arse!"

Bull. No one makes cocaine or heroine in their basement. If I swaggered in and claimed that making cocaine illegal would slow down cocaine use, Liberals would laugh their asses off. You say that about guns and it is supposed to be logical?

Not hardly. It simply means that only people willing to break the law are the ones who have guns.

Bakerstreet... I agree that it’s very hard to make heroin or coke in your basement from scratch. Its easy to make crack though (if you already have the coke). I know plenty of people who grow (or have grown) their own weed.

What you are comparing this to is this... That drugs are legal and are available in bulk from many of the abandoned stores around New Orleans (plus they are waterproof)!

Lets get off the drugs issue. It’s not relative.

Or cant you bear to have a foreigner bring up sensitive issues such as US gun law?!

I have no problem with a "foreigner" bringing up senstitive issues such as US gun law, as long as you don't have a problem with this "foreigner" bringing up UK gun law. ;~D

It is very applicable, you just refuse to admit it.

You are claiming that making gun ownership illegal would somehow prevent these criminals from having guns. The drug issue disproves that with ease. Drugs are illegal, and plentiful. If guns were illegal they'd be just as plentiful.

Oh come on BakerStreet.

They would be nowhere near as plentiful as they are! There wouldn’t be any shops with hundreds of them in for people to ransack for a start!

Oh come on BakerStreet. They would be nowhere near as plentiful as they are! There wouldn’t be any shops with hundreds of them in for people to ransack for a start!

This only shows what you don't know about the subject. If they aren't in the shops they'd be on the streets for sale in the blackmarket. And they WOULD be just as plentiful. As a hobby machinist and someone who has made more than his share, it's NOT hard to make a firearm especially if it's a single shot. You make them illegal and only the crooks have them. Your crooks have a hard time getting them but they ARE getting them just not in the quanities they want. Where do you think the "illegal" pistols are coming from? That is since pistols are illegal. And since they can't get them in the quanities they are using "other" types of weapons. IE: airpistols/rifles, replica guns of all types, knives ( have you tried to buy a knife lately?) Figures from Scotland yard.

3.1.3 Type of firearm In 37 per cent of offences involving firearms, the firearm involved was not identified. This compares with 44 per cent of offences where the firearm was not identified in 2002. See the comments in section 3.1.1 above for an explanation of this and the following point, which reflect changes in recording by Lothian and Borders Police. Airweapons accounted for 43 per cent of all offences involving firearms in 2003, up from 31 per cent in 2002. The second most common category where the type of firearm was identified was imitation firearms, used in 11 per cent of recorded offences in 2003. The number of offences involving the alleged use of a pistol/revolver was at its lowest since 1990, down 17 per cent from 35 in 2002 to 29 in 2003. The number of offences involving the alleged use of a shotgun remained at historically low levels, increasing from 23 in 2002 to 24 in 2003. The number of offences involving a rifle each year are small; there were only 2 such offences in 2003.

Link

Sam, your argument doesn't make sense. There are tons more drug laws, much heavier enforcement and drugs are illegal in every state; yet illegal drugs are just as prevelant in this country as guns. The criminal doesn't care if his gun or drugs are illegal. Laws don't change behavior, they merely attach punitive action to the behavior and each individual decides whether the risk is worth it or not.

Name one law that prevents a behavior.

" If they aren't in the shops they'd be on the streets for sale in the blackmarket. And they WOULD be just as plentiful."

That is complete bullshit, and you know it! There is no way on this earth that if guns were illegal, and the cops did their job that there would be as many of them as there are now.

How simple is it to go and find guns in a situation where there is a store full of them, with no alarms, doors open, no security... no cops... no army?

Drugs are in no way similar to guns! Anyone who thinks they are is completely deluded!

If drugs were legalised, their usage would have NO CRIMINAL ELEMENT!! I dabble in drugs (understatement?) and I dont commit ANY other crimes, other than perhaps speeding. My purchasing drugs and consuming them is the only criminal act I ever engage in.

No matter how handy you are with your Dremmel... drugs are much easier to smuggle (and make) than guns. END OF STORY.

I am personally all for legalising most types of drugs (with some caveats)- but that has nothing to do with this thread....

If drugs were legal in New Orleans during the Katrina storm, do I think it would have made things any safer!??

Guns are already legal. ...But if guns are used - in most cases - people get SHOT!!

Please tell me you can see the difference? Or am I the only person here who can see this?

---

One law that prevents behaviour? Lets see....

Speeding... as I have already mentioned, not everyone sticks to the speed limits. People would be going a hell of a lot faster without them though!!

While we are on a motoring tip, for a start....

Drink driving: Driving while under the influence of alcohol laws for a start. Obviously, this doesn’t include the USA, as most people there dont give a damn about drink driving! Even here in the UK it doesn’t stop the practice completely, but I promise you fewer people drink and drive here since the law cracked down on it.

Seat Belt Wearing: People are much more likely to wear their seatbelt since it became law. This practice saves thousands of lives. All thanks to being told what to do.

I’m not saying laws prevent behaviour 100%... you will always get rebels. Its stupidity to even suggest that laws dont stop people doing things! Its just that when bad people can get hold of guns so easily, they are much more likely to start using them.

You guys can be so frustrating. Now I remember why I haven’t been back to this site for so long.