Bush's mistake was giving too much credibility to the old gaurd placed there by his predessor instead of listening to a more tried and competent general like Powell.

The Clintonistas do seem to forget who GAVE bush the intel.  The Clintonistas!  So all these retarded peaceniks have no one to blame but themselves.

The anti-military, blame America crowd is not growing. It's just getting the usual preference in the media.

Exactly!  And anyone who wants to find out the truth, can today thanks to the Internet.  But the sheeple will continue to bleat the lies they are spoon fed by the MSM.

That is true Island Dog, it is getting preferential treatment in the media. Oddly enough a media led by mostly older voices that made their mark and name on the turmoil of the Viet Nam era. If it were to undergo a good thorough psychological analysis I would guess that it might turn out to be fame junkies trying to re-capture the old glory days. In the absense of sufficient substance in the present, they try to use the past that worked before.

Exactly.  That is what I have been tryin gto tell the nut job dabe all along, but she just closes her ears and starts chanting nananananananaana.

I was around during the vietnam protests. The soldiers came home to lots of hate and disdain, and that was a hard lesson learned. But, that didn't define the vietnam era.

Yes that did define the Vietnam war and the protests.  You were in a drug induced state at the time (probably still are given your shere stupidity).

Hussain would definitely have done all he could to help the terrorists attack us once the UN stopped looking over his shoulder.

While Saddam was not blowing up buildings himself, he was paying terrorists to blow up innocent people to the tune of $25k per family.  And what the sheeple refuse to accept is that this is a war on TERRORISM, not just the 9-11 terrorists.  Your Russia analogy is very apt as well.

Rosa Parks inspired others and those others inspired others and a real movement was made. Where are Cindy's 'others' now?

Rosa Parks inspired a movement to fight an injustice.  Sheehan is trying to inspire a movement to create one.

that's such a foolish statement, it's difficult to know where to begin.

How about with some facts then, cause the rest of your post is complete and utter tripe and hogwash.  That is real cute.  Vietnam caused the decline of America's Manufacturing!  That has to be the most moronic statement ever made about Vietnam!  Go take some Econ courses before you start spouting off like that and come across as a complete fool.

Your own memory seems to stop at the precise moment we pulled out of vietnam, either that or it is so selective there is no hope of EVER curing your ignorance on the matter.

I think it is both.

This is where you and I truly disagree. I'm convinced that bush wanted a war so badly that he disregarded any intelligence that did not point towards the remotest of possibilities that Iraq had WMD's. He dismissed that intel out of hand, and dragged us into it. Now, he's even saying that we need to protect the oil from the terrorists. Always spinning a new story for our reason for going to war. Our intel wasn't great, but the neocons spinned it. that spinning process is tantamount to lying. They lied plain and simple, whether you acknowledge it or not.

You might be convinced but you have no evidence to back it up. There is no evidence of any lies or conspiracies that you base you posts on.

I still tend to believe my own memory when it comes to your age, dabe,(that you are in your 40s, not 50's, unless of course you lied about that in the first place,

And, I don't believe you're a woman. Just some guy who is seeking a sex change operation and loves to impersonate women. And, you probably don't even have arthritis, but are just looking for some kind of compassion from a group of internet groupies. You probably never left the KKK, and are only saying it because you know it would garner so much disgust even from those who may be duped by you. And, you're probably only a teenage boy who wishes that he had a man to beat senseless and be beaten senseless. For all we know, you're probably a young black man full of self loathing, a Michael Jackson wannabee.

You might be convinced but you have no evidence to back it up. There is no evidence of any lies or conspiracies that you base you posts on.

Here are but a few. All based on investigative journalism. You know that wonderful skill now being squashed by the dubya regime......

Link

Link

Link

Link

Link

"Here are but a few. All based on investigative journalism. "

Ah geez. You link a handful of specifically targeted publication points, clearly defined as slanted to a specific political perspective, with stories that reference virtually no documentation or interviews with authoritative sources and call that investigative journalism? Do not confuse honest, investigative journalism with personal editorializing.

There are actually some investigations out there that would support a small number of your many claims, but you are so tied up in your closed minded approach to issues that you are not able to ferret them out. In effect, you have done to a stellar degree exactly what you claim to oppose. You have used spin, personal attacks, half truths or no truths and showed an unwillingness to listen to anyone who does not fit your pre-conceived notion of how it should be.

You have no credibility with anyone except others who have a slanted and single minded approach to the world. This is why your "movement" is only a dream and not a reality. You can fantasize all you want about being as big and powerful as the 20th Century movements, but in the end you just become one of those who can not find a podium of your own to stand on.

I think this is clearly not a discussion of the issues.

You might be convinced but you have no evidence to back it up. There is no evidence of any lies or conspiracies that you base you posts on.

No evidence, just a burning hatred, and they dont even understand why they hate.

And, I don't believe you're a woman. Just some guy who is seeking a sex change operation and loves to impersonate women. And, you probably don't even have arthritis, but are just looking for some kind of compassion from a group of internet groupies. You probably never left the KKK, and are only saying it because you know it would garner so much disgust even from those who may be duped by you. And, you're probably only a teenage boy who wishes that he had a man to beat senseless and be beaten senseless. For all we know, you're probably a young black man full of self loathing, a Michael Jackson wannabee.

Is this a self portrait?

Here are but a few. All based on investigative journalism. You know that wonderful skill now being squashed by the dubya regime......

Those are opinions, not facts. You just blew your case out of the water and made Island dogs.  You really dont know how to debate or are too stupid to realize when you screw up your own argument.

In effect, you have done to a stellar degree exactly what you claim to oppose. You have used spin, personal attacks, half truths or no truths and showed an unwillingness to listen to anyone who does not fit your pre-conceived notion of how it should be.

Very well put!  But be careful, she will claim you are using hate speech against her for that line.

Yeah, poor dabe, she just cant understand why so many people dislike her here, especially when every word issued forth from her keyboard is a self evident, gospel truth.

In defference to Karma, I am going to let her stew in her own juices.  I promised Karma to quit picking on Dabe.

I don't know who Kharma is, but I would agree. There is no gain or virtue in continuing to flog this person. This could be a very insightful and helpful discussion on a very difficult subject. I have been through that exercise many times over the decades, and when done intelligently by all sides, a lot of good growth and wisdom can come from it.

Conflict and disagreement do not have be viewed as bad thing, they can be viewed as a path to greater understanding and solutions that satisfy all. That is how it should be anyway. There 2 types of people in these kind of discussions. Those who list the problems, avoid the facts and fix blame and those who list the problems, take a good hard honest look at them and try to see solutions.

A good thing to keep in mind since discussions here inevitably will soon turn to questions around the disaster handling and specifically issues with Bush, Nagin and all the others involved. The intent of those discussive conflicts should be how do we avoid the mistakes that let it happen this time.

That is my opinion anyway

Ah geez. You link a handful of specifically targeted publication points, clearly defined as slanted to a specific political perspective,

OK now show me some of your links, and we'll compare. Otherwise, I really don't need your empty criticism.

OK now show me some of your links, and we'll compare. Otherwise, I really don't need your empty criticism.

It is not empty.  You were asked for substantiation.  You have failed to provide it.

A good thing to keep in mind since discussions here inevitably will soon turn to questions around the disaster handling and specifically issues with Bush, Nagin and all the others involved. The intent of those discussive conflicts should be how do we avoid the mistakes that let it happen this time.

That is like trying to bail the ocean with a sieve.  You cannot guard against every possibility. 

It is not the fact that disaster happened, it is how it was handled after the fact. Indeed, you can not bail the ocean, but you can bloack it. Half the population of the Netherlands is below sea level. In the 1950s they build hydraulic sea walss, you should see them in action. Pretty solid.

"OK now show me some of your links, and we'll compare. Otherwise, I really don't need your empty criticism."

Well. in the first place I acknowledged long ago that the issue of who is lying was a belief, you were insisting it is fact and that is why I kept saying produce facts. As far as anything that leads me to that belief, read the Congressional Record as it applies to the 9/11 investigations and the investigations in to whether Hussein has WMD, both before and after the war started.

All the other issues I brought up here are historical events. You can go to any history web site, bonafide news web site or local library and see milions of pages confirming those historical events. Plus I have the additional advantage of first hand presence during those events either directly or thorugh my son and co-workers.

The last sentence of your quote really says it all as far as your willingness to have an open and honest discussion of an issue. I think I heard Pat Robertson make that same statement several times about criticism. Did you really intend to place yourself in that company?

It is not the fact that disaster happened, it is how it was handled after the fact. Indeed, you can not bail the ocean, but you can bloack it. Half the population of the Netherlands is below sea level. In the 1950s they build hydraulic sea walss, you should see them in action. Pretty solid.

As someone else pointed out, perhaps this time, we need to get the Dutch to rebuild, and not the French.

As far as anything that leads me to that belief, read the Congressional Record as it applies to the 9/11 investigations and the investigations in to whether Hussein has WMD, both before and after the war started.

Ya wish they would!  But no proof is going to quench their blood thirst.