Why are you praying for that?

I trust you rejoiced at her life... not her death.
This reminds me of a Jewish joke would you believe....
Moses supposedly lived to the age of 120... so the traditional Jewish blessing on ones' birthday is "You should live to 120".

Now the joke.....
What do you say to someone that just reached their 120th birthday?
"Have a nice day".....
oy!!!

I trust you rejoiced at her life... not her death.

It was a bit of both, actually.  I was honestly glad that she'd been released from the torture that she'd been trapped in.

But rejoicing at a loved one's release from a prison of pain...nothing at all wrong with that

My mother said that she never, ever thought that she'd be on her knees praying for someone to die...until her mother became terminalally ill with pancreatic cancer.  The she said that she was on her knees three or four times a day, praying for a release from the pain for her mum. 

Another example of people praying for things that don't make sense is this hurricane that's beating the crap out of Louisiana et al right now.  A few folks stayed behind, confident that their god would answer their prayers and divert the hurricane even though it was obvious that it was headed right for them.  Why pray for that?  Why not pray for safe passage out of the area and for food and shelter until it passed?

I think people pray for these things more for themselves than for the afflicted person. When someone dies we feel pain and loss.

Personally, I would much rather die a quick death as to be in some limbo of pain and disorientation in some hospital bed.

While some people's prayers may not make sense to you (or me), I'm sure it makes perfect sense to them at the time. The human mind is extremely complex and varied and what makes sense to you or me may make no sense at all to someone else. What a boring old world this would be if everyone thought the exact same way.

While some people's prayers may not make sense to you (or me), I'm sure it makes perfect sense to them at the time

The same could be said for a schizophrenic person in the middle of a hallucination.  What they do makes perfect sense to them at the time, but it odesn't make sense to the rest of us.....

I DO understand that people think that their god can work miracles, however....I am reminded sometimes of the joke about the man hangin off the cliff.  He's hanging there by his fingertips, a 100ft drop and certain death beneath him. he starts praying aloud, asking god to please save him....and then a man with a dog comes by and offers to pull him up.  "no thanks" says the dude. "I'm waiting for god to save me.  I asked, I'm sure he will".  After a while, a helicopter comes into view, and the pilot drops a line to the man, telling him to grab it so he can lift him off the cliff.  "No, it's ok...I'm waiting for god to rescue me" says the dude.  pretty soon, his arms get so tired that he can't hold on anymore, and he falls to his death.  After he's died his soul goes to heaven, and as he's walking through the pearly gates he sees gos. "hey!" he said "I thought that you were going to rescue me!  Instead you let me fall and die! What's up with that??".  "hey yourself" says god "...and I sent you a man and a helicopter, what more did you want??"

I think people pray for these things more for themselves than for the afflicted person.

EXACTLY.

 

I agree with Mason Dharma. You also have to remember people pray because they have hope. Hope that whatever the affliction is, it will get better.

Prayers might not make sense to those who don't believe in it or in Jesus Christ, however it does make sense to the believers and it has been proven time and again to work. I'm sitting here today because prayers worked for me. And at the time I almost died from an affliction that happened to me when I was a teenager.

People pray because they have faith and they want to believe that there's someone (God) out there (even if you believe in whatever "God" you believe in),who will hear their cries for help, or their anquish, whatever it maybe. Because it does make them feel better. It comforts them that someone else is there to take the burden away.

Nobody likes pain and they certainly don't like to see their loved ones in pain or sick and dying. When they pray for that person to recover it's just that thing that makes us want them to do so because we want things to be the way they were, because we love that person, because we always hope against all odds. And then when we let go is when we've come to the realization that what we pray for is what's not meant to be. Some people don't get this part until the bitter end. And then they realized that it's all for the best.

Hope is forever eternal and if we all lose it then we might as well all roll over.

When they pray for that person to recover it's just that thing that makes us want them to do so because we want things to be the way they were, because we love that person, because we always hope against all odds.

So it's really the person praying for themselves, not for their loved one?

So it's really the person praying for themselves, not for their loved one?

It's a little of both. You pray for the person to recover and in doing so you're praying for them to be healthy and strong so you don't have to worry.

So I guess if you really want to look at it that way, praying can be selfish but it is also selfless.

There's a phrase in the bible (and I don't remember which book/chapter/verse) where God said you must remember to also pray for yourself. I guess that's always foremost in our minds.

So it's really the person praying for themselves, not for their loved one?

I think that is as varied as people themselves. One person may feel true compassion and being praying for the person while another is praying more for their own comfort. The intent and motivations vary as much as the people themselves.

The one consistant thing about people is they are inconsistant. I don't think any generality will apply to everyone or even "most".

Personally, I think each person finds their comfort in their own way. For some, they find comfort in denigrating the beliefs and practices of other people, others in prayer, and still others in various and sundry other ways.

For some, they find comfort in denigrating the beliefs and practices of other people,

Why is it that whenever I ask a question about Christianity or theology that gets tossed out?  The scenario I gave could easily have been applied to a Hindu person, a Jewish person...any belief system that has a deity.  It's not just Chrsitianity I was questioning...the scenario I gave involved a person who was a devout Christian, so obviously I mentioned that, but nowhere else in the article did I specifically mention Christianity.  In fact, the first person to respond is Jewish. 

I'm not even asking to be antagonistic.  I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested.  I WANT to get people's perspective on this, I WANT to know what/how they feel if their prayers aren't answered.

Seems to me that people can't ask questions or make comments about Christianity without some of it's followers screaming foul and harrassment.  Are people always this touchy about their faith? It makes it damn hard to have a discussion about it.....

There's a phrase in the bible (and I don't remember which book/chapter/verse) where God said you must remember to also pray for yourself. I guess that's always foremost in our minds.

Thank you!  That's EXACTLY the kind of response I'm looking for. 

I'm not even asking to be antagonistic. I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested. I WANT to get people's perspective on this, I WANT to know what/how they feel if their prayers aren't answered.

Huh? There was no accusation made towards you. I think it's a legitimate question and was trying to give what I perceive as a suitable answer to some statements/questions made. I don't recall mentioning a specific belief system either, just presented some examples of how varied people's methods of seeking comfort can be.

Perhaps it would be best to read things as presented instead of searching for personal attacks where none exist. Better yet, I'll just avoid the thread completely as it seems my comments are unwelcome. Have a nice day.

it's called denial D, and I ain't talking about a river in Egypt either.

We pray for the hopeless becauswe the reality is to much to bear.

Those kind of prayers are selfish ones imo.

Obviously it was taken as a backhanded accusation, and it seemed as if that's exactly how it was meant to be taken.

Thank you, LW.  I'm glad I wasn't imagining things....

it's called denial D, and I ain't talking about a river in Egypt either. We pray for the hopeless becauswe the reality is to much to bear. Those kind of prayers are selfish ones imo.

I have noticed a pattern in my prayers, MM.  Even when I was deep into Buddhism, I still prayed at moments of extreme stress.  like when I wrecked the Jeep, for example.  I sat there, thinking I was dying and praying to god to not let me.  Whenever Dave goes somewhere slightly risky I pray for him to come home safe.  It seems that when I'm really, really scared about anything, I pray.  I don't know if it's a release mechanisim...that the simple act of praying and sharing what your worried about or scared of with something bigger than yourself relieves some of the strain of bearing it alone.  After all, Christ said something about 'come unto me, all you who are burdened, for my yoke is light and I can carry your load' (and I parpahrased a LOT there).  I realize you're jewish, but I'm pretty sure there's something in the OT about that too.

Better yet, I'll just avoid the thread completely as it seems my comments are unwelcome. Have a nice day.

Think what you want, mason, and I'll think what I want.

Jesus said, "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." The phrase many Christians like to overlook is that "in my name". It's not like rubbing a genie's bottle and so long as you pray "in Jesus' name, Amen" you'll have what you're asked for. The phrase "in my name" means basically, "according to My will"... I share the desires of my heart with the Father, yet the bottom line is that I want His will to be done, so I'm willing to accept an answer that I don't necessarily want to hear, recognizing that He knows best. I think of that in terms of the situation you mentioned above, dharma... my instinct would be to pray as you would have..."please take release her from this misery and let her come home." At the same time, I would pray for comfort for D's grandmother, and that she would come to accept her sister's death as for the best. Underlying it all, however, would be the prayer that Jesus prayed in the garden when He was asking God to take the cup from Him... "...nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." To give God (not that He needs me to give it to Him - but you know what I mean) the authority to act as He sees fit... that's what it's about for me. If He thought it would be best to restore D's great aunt to health, then He would do that, in spite of my prayer to take her home. Likewise, if I were praying for Him to make her well, He could just as easily take her Himself. Personally, I wouldn't want a God that I could manipulate. What kind of omnipotence is that?

I see prayer as a coping mechanism.

The Christian view (ha, and just the other day I had a discussion about this with my Christian mother) is that when you ask for something, if you get receive it, it was god's will, and if you don't then you what you were asking for wasn't good for you.

So, when you receive what you've asked for, you praise god for taking care of you. And when you don't receive it, you acknowledge your own folly and praise god for taking care of you.

I think it's a way to see order in chaos. There are things that we can have no effect on, but if we believe that we can ask this deity that has our best interests at heart to intercede on our behalf, then we don't feel so out of control and hopeless.

When I was Christian, I was awful about prayer, and only prayed when I was under stress or had a need. Many will say that prayer is about "letting go" and handing control over to god, but in reality prayer is about gaining a sense of control by allowing ourselves to believe that our prayers will affect the outcome of something that is hopelessly out of our control.

Even now that I have abandoned Christianity, when something is chaotic and seems dire, I have an urge to pray. It's a conditioned response to stress. A coping mechanism.

Therefore, people pray for what they want to happen, hoping for what they want but with a realization that what will happen will happen, and because they have prayed, they can accept the outcome as being "what's best" and assign positive meaning to it.

I think it's equal parts attempting to gain control of the world around them and coping with chaos through viewing bad or undesirable events as serving a purpose.

Or are they happy to take a back seat and say "this hurt me, but I'm trusting you...you must have a plan for me that didn't involve this"

Exactly.

Therefore, people pray for what they want to happen, hoping for what they want but with a realization that what will happen will happen, and because they have prayed, they can accept the outcome as being "what's best" and assign positive meaning to it.

This assumes that the only things prayed for are perceived needs. I pray for many other reasons. I pray because I want to stay connected to God and you can't have a deep or meaningful relationship with anyone without communication. I speak to Him (giving thanksgiving, giving Him worship and adoration, sharing what's on my heart, confession, interceding for others, asking for guidance, asking Him to give me understanding into the truth of His Word, asking Him to guard my speech, even just telling Him about my day) and He speaks to me through His Word. I don't know how many times I've requested wisdom from God over a particular situation I'm dealing with, and then He guides me to a place in the Bible that speaks directly to that circumstance. This is what comes from a lifestyle of prayer.. not just a quick one shot off as you find yourself in the middle of frightening or unsettling circumstances... but solid conversation with the Living God.

Cultivating an attitude of prayer brings humility to my life. Admitting my dependence on God helps me to abandon my pride. I don't achieve some sense of control from it (actually, I've often found that when I trust God completely, He leads me to places where I'm completely out of my comfort zone), but I learn to depend on Him. It's practicing the presence of God... laying it all open before Someone who loves me -- in spite of me -- and knowing that it doesn't matter what I've done, it's been atoned for and I have peace.

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." My Bible tells me that this is true. My experience has convinced me that it is.

HC: I think if it works for you and makes your life better or easier to deal with, then that's great.

Petitioning a perceived higher being for something and then praising it when events go as I wish and questioning/condemning my own motives or desires and praising that same higher being for "knowing better than me" when things do not go as I wish is just not something I can go along with.

I don't know how many times I've requested wisdom from God over a particular situation I'm dealing with, and then He guides me to a place in the Bible that speaks directly to that circumstance.

My question to you is this: How does god guide you? What events make you believe that god himself has shown you a passage that you find useful or comforting?

The Christian attitude seems to be that if god doesn't make sense to you or you if you don't assign credit to god for happy coincidences that it's because YOU are lacking.

The Bible says that god answers the prayers of the righteous. What if you aren't righteous? Do your prayers fall on deaf ears? How do you know whether god considers you righteous?

And then there's the thing where people who consider themselves to be righteous say that god answers all prayers but sometimes the answer is no, which is a convenient explanation for the failure of the "power of prayer". Because god knows best, right? Then why even have prayer?

It's like a parent telling a child, "I'm making a menu for the week. Let me know what foods you'd like to have and which ones you don't." Then the parent proceeds to make the menu without consideration for the child's tastes.

When the child gets hot dogs and cupcakes, the child is supposed to thank the gracious parent for the wonderful gift. When the child gets broccoli soup, the child is supposed to inwardly chide himself for his poor food choices and thank his parent for feeding him something that was good for him.

Why ask the child to even bother making requests?

PS - My intent is not to be antagonistic toward you. These are just questions or disagreements I have with Christianity.

My question to you is this: How does god guide you? What events make you believe that god himself has shown you a passage that you find useful or comforting?

I don't just close my eyes, point, and have my fingers fall on exactly the words I need, if that's what you're asking. Sometimes it's something that I run across through a study of something unrelated... sometimes I hear a sermon on Sunday morning that directly relates to my circumstances... sometimes a friend will call with counsel that's based on Scripture (although maybe not word for word or quoting a reference) and it speaks to the situation I'm going through. It works for me.

The Christian attitude seems to be that if god doesn't make sense to you or you if you don't assign credit to god for happy coincidences that it's because YOU are lacking.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you feel that I was claiming that those who don't believe are lacking? If that's the case, then I can assure you that's not how I feel. I'm not any better than anyone else, whether they are of the faith or not. I sin just like everyone else... and even now, as a believing Christian, I find myself saying and doing things from time to time that I'm ashamed of. I am the wretch the song refers to. If you mean that I recognize that I myself am lacking when God doesn't operate as I think He should, then I guess in a way... He knows much more than I do, and I'm glad. I think if I had omniscience my brain would explode. But sometimes, God acts in a way that I dislike... and it's not that I was wrong, or that I didn't have enough faith. It just is the way things are.

The Bible says that god answers the prayers of the righteous. What if you aren't righteous? Do your prayers fall on deaf ears? How do you know whether god considers you righteous?

"The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." I guess the answer lies in your perspective of what "righteous" means. I'm not righteous because of anything I've done... I'm righteous because God sees me through His Son, Jesus. If I had to depend on my own righteousness I'd be in deep DEEP trouble... but when He gave His life for mine, He gave me His righteousness in place of my sinfulness. I heard someone describe it recently as God seeing me through "Jesus-colored glasses." Anyway, because of what He did for me, I am considered righteous in God's eyes... and anyone can be, regardless of what they've done (or they think they've done). All they have to do is accept what Jesus did on the cross for them and reach out for Him.

And then there's the thing where people who consider themselves to be righteous say that god answers all prayers but sometimes the answer is no, which is a convenient explanation for the failure of the "power of prayer".

I agree... you can look at that and see it as a convenient explanation for the failure of prayer. But we can explain away or justify anything that happens, can't we? We find ways to rationalize away whatever we don't choose to believe. I find ways to explain away the theory of evolution. Someone else will find a way to explain away the existence of God. But that's the beauty of freedom... we get to decide for ourselves what we believe, and then live according to it. I suppose, if I'm wrong about Christianity, it won't matter when I die. If it gives comfort and meaning to my life here and now, is that a bad thing?

Because god knows best, right? Then why even have prayer?

Aaaaah. I understand the frustration here well. I've wrestled on occasion with that very question. I posted about it in Dharma's "Random Ramblings" post. Link If God is going to do what He wants anyway, why bother to ask for what I want? But it all comes down to relationship. If my daughter all of a sudden quit talking to me because she didn't like a choice I had made for her.... I would be saddened. There are things I'd love to share with her, but if she won't come to me, then I can't give her those things... or tell her those things. Most of all, I want her to know that she can always come to me, no matter what's going on. That I will be here to hold her in my arms when she needs it... to show her the right direction to take when she doesn't know where to turn... to discipline her when she needs it. I don't ask her to beat herself up when what she's asked me for isn't good for her. Instead I try to teach her why it wasn't the right choice, and help her to learn from it. But we don't dwell on her past mistakes, and God doesn't do that with me either. He just picks me up, dusts me off, and sets me in the right direction again.

This is how my faith works for me. I didn't think you were being antagonistic, and I enjoy healthy discussion. When someone questions why I believe what I believe, it makes me really take a deeper look at my faith, and that's never a bad thing. If you can't explain why you believe what you do, then how much substance does it really have?

But it all comes down to relationship.

My thoughts exactly. There was a time in my life where I felt I had abandoned all faith in the God that I had been brought up to know. Mind you, this was a judgemental one. Unworthiness, mistrust and abandonment were the feelings I most often identified within myself while in His presence.

Then something changed. I reached a low point in my life. So, I prayed. What I asked for might seem like very little: only strength and direction. The impact that had on my life was overwhelming though. My trust in this other more benevolent and nurturing God has grown each time I seek His will. I also often ponder about how much I am loved, as I consider that my love for my children is but a pale reflection of that higher love. My relationship has grown to include prayers of gratitude as well.

As for your grandmother, Dharmagrl, one of the most common challenges I encounter when families grieve is that members often find themselves at different stages in the grieving process: some in denial, some in bargaining, some in anger, some in sadness and finally some in acceptance. I think you and she were just at different stages. In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous one doctor-alcoholic-addict writes: "Acceptance is the answer to all my problems." Easier said than done. Myself included.

Wonderful thread.

I didn't see dharma say or even act as if Mason's comments were unwanted, if that WERE the case I'm sure she can find her blacklist option.

Yep, I'm perfectly capable of that. 

The reason I reacted as I did was because I didn't see any denigrating of another person's beliefs on this thread, but it seems that no matter what i write about Christianity I get accused of just that...denigrating another person's beliefs.  I don't like insinuation, period....if people have something to say, just come right out and say it.  Don't fuck around and hint, just damn well say it.  There IS no denigration, the questions I posed are honest and straightforward and I'm getting (for the most part) honest and straightforward responses.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want a God that I could manipulate. What kind of omnipotence is that?

I think that people try to bargain with god every day though.  I hear stories of people praying and saying things like "i'll stop drinking forever if you just spare my child".....to me, that's bargaining.

 

I think it's a way to see order in chaos. There are things that we can have no effect on, but if we believe that we can ask this deity that has our best interests at heart to intercede on our behalf, then we don't feel so out of control and hopeless.

I think that you and I are on much the same wavelength about it.  I believe in the power of prayer, in the power of positive thinking, but I don't think that it works in the way a lot of people believe it does.  I think that there's a power bigger than all of us that we simply can't comprehend because we're not that sophisticated, and that prayer is a way of tapping into that power.....but at the same time I think that a lot of prayer is a self-defense mechanisim when times get tough.  I know I've used it as that.

Because god knows best, right? Then why even have prayer?

I ask myself that question all the time.

 

But sometimes, God acts in a way that I dislike... and it's not that I was wrong, or that I didn't have enough faith. It just is the way things are.

Then why bother praying?  Also, if God is omnipotent and all-knowing, doesn't he already know what's in your heart and mind?  So why do we have to ask in the form of prayer?  Again, I'm not trying to be antagonistic (I like you too much to do that to you) I'm really just very interested.

 

I suppose, if I'm wrong about Christianity, it won't matter when I die. If it gives comfort and meaning to my life here and now, is that a bad thing?

That sort of fulfil's Pascal's Wager.

If you can't explain why you believe what you do, then how much substance does it really have?

Thank you for saying that, it makes me feel much better about asking questions....

 

In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous one doctor-alcoholic-addict writes: "Acceptance is the answer to all my problems."

But do you need god to do that?  Can you not be totally non-theistic and STILL be accepting?

But do you need god to do that? Can you not be totally non-theistic and STILL be accepting?

Short answer: Yes, I think that most people can be accepting and non-theistic.

Long answer:
My spirituality is an enrichment to my life. It widens my world from the confines of that which is strictly physical, intellectual and emotional. In this way, it helps to give me context. I see my place. I belong here. Without some belief in a power greater than myself, I don't think that I, personally, would be capable of acceptance of myself or the world around me, nor of making healthier changes in myself. It's the help that I need.

I agree that it's not for everyone.

Here's an interesting link to the wikipedia on Carl Jung who tended to see his patients in a spiritual context. Under #influence: Link

sorry, ddoublee ppostt

After some much needed sleep and re-reading the thread, I can understand why Dharma felt one of my examples was intended as a slight directed toward her. In hindsight, considering the topic of the article, it was a poor choice of words on my part. But I want to be very clear here in saying that an insult was not the intention at all. I can't say it any more clearly than that.

I apologize for any offense, however unintended it may have been.