If You Do Wrong, You = Weak. Not YourJob = Evil !

I partake of the pleasures of food far too much myself....and lazy would be an accurate word to describe myself, and that leads to procrastination. I do just enough work to get by in school even though I could do so much more if I applied myself. I'm pretty damn paranoid...if that counts as a fault.....

You have a great point...everyone is responsible for what they do. Society seems determined to prove that no one is responsible for their actions (My parents were mean, I never got this, I was around this, I didn't know, blah, blah, blah)....there is no excuse for what one does....if you do it, own it and quit your bitching.

Great article, greywar!

~Zoo

I understand your sentiments.  Unfortunately I see a lot of Airmen using the military as an excuse for their actions, and their wives let them do it.

The military did not cause them to go to the NCO club on a Friday night and take home someone other than their wife.  They may have had a bad day at work and they may have needed to let off a little steam, but that's where the military's accountability lies.

The military did not cause them to spend more money than they usually would on a deployment.  So what if the rest of the team were going out to dinner for the fifth time in a week?  If you don't have the money, you don't go.  It's that simple. 

The military can put stresses on a person, yes.  How they handle those stresses is entirely a matter of personal account ability. 

Hahaha...you exploded onto a whole 'nother blog?

I think you're being a complete asshole about my husband considering that you don't know him.

That said, you're not quite getting what I'm saying.

The military is different than a regular job. I would think you would understand this. The leadership is responsible for creating an atmosphere of integrity. When they do not, that is their failing.

A Soldier is responsible for following the rules. When they do not, that is their failing.

The line between the two is blurred when the leadership decides that the rules do not apply. The Soldiers are to look to the leadership as an example of how they should conduct themselves, as well as for direct instructions.

This does not mean that the Soldier is not still responsible for their own actions (hey, they're allowed to reject an illegal order), but it does mean that the leadership is responsible for holding themselves to a higher standard, because the Soldiers WILL emulate them.

The Soldiers are responsible for their actions, even when the actions of those around them are wrong. The leadership is held accountable not only for their actions, but for the actions of their Soldiers as well when the Soldiers have done wrong by following their instruction.

We've seen this played out in Abu Ghraib.

The military is different than a regular job. I would think you would understand this. The leadership is responsible for creating an atmosphere of integrity. When they do not, that is their failing.

If you come right down to it, 'the military' is nothing but a series of AFI's (for the AF, I don't know the other BOS equivalent's), OI's and a UCMJ.  The people in 'the military' are simply members. 

Ultimately, each military member is responsible for his or her own conduct. 

The military is different than a regular job.

Yes it is. Soldiers need to be held to even closer moral strictures than civilians. Saying that you did something because your leadership did it first is not only wrong but moronic as well. No excuse for ANYONE in ANY job. They are all responsible for themselves. Just because your SGT does something doesn't make it any more OK for a soldier to do it.

I think you're being a complete asshole about my husband considering that you don't know him.

I mentioned your husband here where exactly? You used your hubby as an example in that other thread and i responded using the exact same thing as I already explained there. If your husband was simply a rhetorical tool for you there that's fine but don't take me to task for not knowing you were fictionalizing this. If you were not fictionalizing this then how am *I* the asshole? For insisting that people take responsibility for thier own morality?

If you remember your creed of the Non-commissioned officer, you would see that the NCOs are responsible for the conduct of the soldiers under their care. Denying this fact would go against everything the NCO corp stands for. Only a complete failure would take such a non-commital attitude toward leading soldiers.

That comment was from my husband, btw.

you would see that the NCOs are responsible for the conduct of the soldiers under their care

NCOs are HELD ACCOUNTABLE for the soldiers under thier care. An NCO can not be held responsible for a soldier driving drunk, raping someone or not paying bills. They are responsible for training and supervising the soldier, but ultimately nobody can be responsible for a decision or action of another.

The line between the two is blurred when the leadership decides that the rules do not apply. The Soldiers are to look to the leadership as an example of how they should conduct themselves, as well as for direct instructions.

So people are not accountable for thier actions if mom or dad was a drunk and raised 'em wrong? They are poor innocents if the NCOIC is a self centered jerk who sets a poor example? I'm sorry but I have to cry BULLSHIT.

3 of my soldiers went out. 2 girls and a guy. He was the designated driver. The girls got drunk, fought and refused to get in the car with each other. He drove one home and left the other at the club, promising to be back in 20 min. She hitchhicked, got raped and nearly killed before he returned. Who is responsible for this? Me, the first line supervisor? The designated driver for leaving one girl? The other girl for fighting? or the girl who got smashed, made a poor decision and nearly died? If the unit had not had a safety brief, would the 1SG be responsible?

Greywar is right, NO ONE ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING YOU DO EXCEPT (all together now) YOU! Quit blaming your crap on mom, dad, your boss and the guy next door. Suck it up and move on.

Feel free to own your own flaws in the comments. It's liberating

Umm....okay, I'm a caffeine junkie, slight pyro, I have a self-esteem so low you'd have to dig to get to it, I'm overly critical, and I avoid leadership positions like the plague.

That said,

If you remember your creed of the Non-commissioned officer, you would see that the NCOs are responsible for the conduct of the soldiers under their care.

I've thought about this one a lot, long before this ever came up here. First of all, the creed's a lot of hooah horescrap. It's idealism is nice, but I can't even remember the last time I saw it truly lived up to. Besides, the creed never does say that an NCO is responsible for the actions of his soldiers.

It does say in the first part that he's responsible for his own conduct and professionalism. In the second it says that he's responsible for the welfare of his soldiers, and the accomplishment of his mission. While it clearly state's that he's to keep his soldiers informed, and to provide for their needs, it doesn't say that he's responsible for their actions. The closest it comes at any time, is when it says that he will not let his comrades forget that they are professionals, soldiers, leaders.

I believe that an NCO is responsible for two things to his soldiers, leading them to accomplish a mission, and providing for their welfare. Yes, he is often held accountable for their actions by the army, but that does not mean that he is truly responsible for their actions.

On many, many occasions I've seen soldier fuck up, almost always knowing they were wrong, deliberately opposing the orders and actions of their leaders, and frequently even knowing they would be caught. Accountable maybe, responsible no.

For example, when I was in Korea, someone moved a humvee when they weren't supposed to and wrecked it. They moved it against orders, without a T.C., we'd been briefed that week against it, and their platoon sergeant was in a training meeting and told them to go down and clean out their con-ex. The guy held accountable? Some poor E-5 from their platoon that happened to walk into the other end of the motor pool just as it happened and was therefore "present and in charge." There was no possible way he had any responsiblity for what happened, but he lost two weeks pay all the same.

crap, someone beat me to it.

NCOs are responsible for being leaders and providing an appropriate example. If they provide a miserable example...let's say it's a specific behavior...and the lower enlisted entrusted to them imitate exactly what the NCOs are doing, then the NCOs ARE responsible.

They are not responsible for suffering the consequences of the Soldiers' actions, but they ARE responsible for their bad leadership and the effect that bad leadership had on the Soldiers in their care.

I don't mean that just because an NCO's Soldier does something stupid that it's the NCO's fault. What I mean is that when they (the NCO) directly contribute to the failure, moral or military, of a Soldier entrusted to them, then they are responsible for their failure in leadership.

This is not passing the blame off on other people. Each person is responsible for doing what they need to do and what is right regardless of their situation. Those who are in charge of others (parents, teachers, chain of command, etc.) are not responsible for the actions of those in their care. They are responsible for their failure in leadership and their contribution to the stumbling of the person in their care.

They are responsible for their influence.

I'm not saying that Soldiers should be let off the hook when they do something wrong. I am saying that when a leader deliberately contributes to one of their Soldiers doing something wrong, then they need to be held responsible for their failure.

Haha, I don't know how many ways I can say it. A Leader is a leader. It is their job, responsibility, etc., to LEAD. They have accountability for where they lead their Soldiers.

I'm not saying that an NCO is responsible for the actions of the Soldiers. I'm saying the NCO is responsible for the INFLUENCE and LEADERSHIP he or she exerts over his or her Soldiers.

Only a complete failure would take such a non-commital attitude toward leading soldiers.

For someone whose wife called a man on the carpet for judging someone by one specific example, you seem to be jumping to the wrong conclusion about greywar as an NCO. A very wrong conclusion.

I'm sorry this thread is degenerating like the other. I thought perhaps grey moved part of the discussion here to focus in on just that part, while leaving the other baggage over in the other thread.

Insightfuls for life and, when I regenerate one, SPC NBS as well. How are you two doing? (Never mind, I'll just go check your blogs.)

For someone whose wife called a man on the carpet for judging someone by one specific example, you seem to be jumping to the wrong conclusion about greywar as an NCO. A very wrong conclusion.

Couple of things.

My husband did not read the thread and has no idea about the back and forth that preceded his comment. I asked him his thoughts on an NCOs role and level of responsibility and gave him a run down on what the opposing view was. He volunteered to write his thoughts on it.

I don't know whether greywar was a good NCO or a rotten one. Despite my strong disagreement with his views on this topic, I suspect that he was a competent and upright leader. I mean, he volunteered to go to Iraq, didn't he?

Regardless, I've grown tired of this. I've made my thoughts as plain as it's within my ability to do, and since I'm not in the military it's not really my concern or my business. It's just something I have an opinion about, just like about a million things I have an opinion about that have nothing to do with me.

I'm sorry this thread is degenerating like the other. I thought perhaps grey moved part of the discussion here to focus in on just that part, while leaving the other baggage over in the other thread.

Different article content, same clone comments, eh?

Well, I apologize for taking my comments all over the map on this thread and the other. If I offended anyone with my comments, I am sorry as well. It was never my intent. It's been an interesting, if heated, debate.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Different article content, same clone comments, eh?

Are you referring to your own comments, here? I'd agree, but I'm not sure that's what you intended.

I don't think you've offended anyone, however. Personally, I thought it more appropriate to leave the other parts of the conversation on the other thread, and save this thread for things like:

A (very) few of my weaknesses:
I eat too much. Possibly more than grey, sometimes. I'm thinking of Germany, here.
I have poor exercise habits. I'm getting better, though.
I have no personal professional drive, or even much drive to improve myself. I have to draw that from outside.

Maybe I'm doing better than greywar, maybe not. Not really the point, is it?
I really don't find this liberating, though. I'm not even touching on a lot of things... too much, for me.

greywar, This article really takes a load off my shoulders. I am not responsible for your mistakes! Alleluia! Thank you. No really, I agree with you. We can all sit around and wallow in self pity, blaming others for not giving us every advantage, making excuses for our own bad choices and feel like the whole world is organized against us. But that accomplishes nothing. That's the way that a lot of people like it.

Good article. Keep blogging...that is the way that I keep up with your life and growth.

From the get-go, the military sets itself up for this kind of debate. Who is responsible for who and to what extent? Beginning in basic training, soldiers are told what to do and when to do it. What to wear, hell, what to eat even. Pretty much all personal responsibility is removed. They're taught to trust their leaders implicitly. Then slowly they are given back responsibility, then not as slowly, given responsibility for other soldiers! The military is excellent at the "Ours not to question why" mentality, and not so good at teaching their soldiers good judgment.

The debate here is not about whether NCO's should be held accounbtable for their soldiers *preventable* fuckups (of course they should. It is not about whether a bad NCO who sets bad examples should be punished for that (if you can read this article and think that I would advocate not punishing someone you have issues with literacy). The debate is whether a soldier (or anyone) can push off *any* part of the blame for their own fuck-ups onto anyone else. That answer is... no. Can leaders be wrong? Fuck yes, does that in any way excuse one of their subordinates for drinking, fucking, or doing other inapporpriate things? Fuck no.

"I slept around cuz the other guys were doing it?" Get real. They slept around because the liked sleeping around. There might be a host of denials post facto but the truth is that their moral character sucked, sucked, and in 95% of American males who have cheated will continue to suck. Their NCO's didn't hold a gun to their head and make them do anything. I don't care if their Commander personally fucked a battalion of Thai hookers in front of formation every day after reveille! Either you have some moral fiber and don't do it yourself or you are a sub-human sheep.

The military is excellent at the "Ours not to question why" mentality, and not so good at teaching their soldiers good judgment.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment here and I intend to do an article on it but it doesn't excuse soldiers from excercising their moral decion making processes. Life sucks and people are often put into situations where it is easier to do the wrong thing than the right thing. Doesn't make it right(er) to take the easy wrong over the hard right. Just makes it life.

I left a laborously long comment elsewhere. Read it or don't. I care not. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

greywar: I agree with what you've said in post #17. It has seemed to me that throughout all this you've been defending the failure of the leadership. Thank you for clarifying that. (Oh, I know, I must have literacy issues, right?)

I'm going to ignore the abrasive rant about morality.

Life sucks and people are often put into situations where it is easier to do the wrong thing than the right thing. Doesn't make it right(er) to take the easy wrong over the hard right. Just makes it life.

EXACTLY!!!! JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY! The nature of things is that there are situations where it is easier to do the wrong thing than it is the right thing. Sometimes it's damn hard.

The leadership should not create situations where it is harder for their Soldiers to do the right thing. THAT is what I am saying. It doesn't alleviate the Soldier's guilt or punishment. It just means that the leadership should set the standard.

OK, and I said I was done before, but there I went again. Apologies. I'm trying my best to leave this thread alone.

I think everyone's responsible for their own fuck-ups and failings. However, I'm afraid I do believe in mitigating circumstances.

For example, while peer pressure doesn't excuse actions, it makes them more understandable. It's understandable if a teenager gets pressured into drinking too much at her after-prom party. But she's still responsible for crashing the car and killing all the passengers, and should be charged with negligent manslaughter at the least, and premeditated murder at the worst.

I am responsible for flunking out of grad school. But hopefully I deserve sympathy from others when I point out that the department chair told me my classmates were smarter than me, and it was a good thing I didn't have a boyfriend because an attached woman's place is to take care of her man. Yeah, he was a demoralizing asshole, but it was still my choice to sleep at least 5 hours a night on rather than working 24/7, and it was my choice to work honestly rather than cheating on tests.

Sometimes you're in a bad situation, and while you have to accept your fuck-up, you also have to forgive yourself because the alternatives were worse. (Not that I think becoming a lush or cheating on your wife are the preferable options.) Just don't blame anyone else, and don't put yourself in that situation again. "Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome."

Ah, there's one.

It is my fault that I flunked out of college. And, now, I'm damned glad I did, or I'd be some Signals Officer in a miserable marriage. Woo.

Thanks, zandperl.

I think Grey and Texas Wahine are really getting at the same point, but differing on some of the semantics in how they expressed them. I agree with you Grey that people are responsible for their own actions. I'm a HUGE fan of personal responsibility and accountability. I think that if you screw up, you should own it. I also think that if you do a great job, you should get the reward, and not necessarily have to share it. You wanna bust your ass and work 2 or 3 jobs to get the nice things in life? Go for it. You shouldn't be penalized for being successful, and people shouldn't lay guilt trips on you like, "You should share your good fortune with those who haven't been so lucky." Sure, I admit that luck plays a part in it at times, but I know a lot of people who busted their asses to get good jobs, good paychecks, etc. Why should they have to "share" it with somebody (like Grey or myself) who lacked the self-discipline and self-motivation to improve their lot in life?

Along your original intent in this thread Grey:

I too, am fat, because I can't stop shoving Oreos (TM) down my freakin' gullet, and don't have the discipline to do more than 5 minutes of exercise.

I don't have enough of a relationship with my daughter, because I've failed to take an active role in her life (though I'm working on that...)

I almost live check to check, because I don't have the discipline to say "no" to really cool stuff on sale at Best Buy. I'm working on this one too, but I still find myself buying worthless shit, just to store it in a closet a week later.

Pretty much I suffer from the sin of gluttony. I don't have to deal with murder, adultery, or some of the others, but excessiveness seems to kick my ass on a regular basis.... I recognize it, I own it, and I make daily efforts to fight it.... But, I don't blame anybody else for me not having enough money to take my wife on trips regularly.... I'm at fault for that...

Thanks for the honesty Grey!

OOh, I need to get some stuff off my chest too!

I'm a lazy housekeeper. I'll do it when it needs doing, but not before.

I spend too much of Dave's money. I know that I shouldn't, and I know he'll get aggrivated, but I do it anyway. I've started justifying the things that I buy to myself...and if I can't justify them, I hide them.