A terrible and Tragic Accident

I would have to see the full report to know whether I think the father should be charged or not. I would also need to know the local laws. If there were no laws broken then it a tragic accident, but no one was at fault. If there were laws broken, or negligence could be demonstrated then, yes, manslaughter would be an appropriate charge.

We are seeing the swing of the pendulum lately. For a long time our society took a "no fault" attitude towards MVAs. Unless the driver is drunk, speeding, running from the police or other overtly illegal activity it was just accepted as "an accident". Now, more and more, we (as a society) are calling for heads to roll. "Somebody died, somebody must pay!"

The problem is, can a person accidentally be a criminal? Is a person who causes an MVA the same as a person who kills someone on purpose? The bigger question is, is there a difference between justice and revenge? To answer that question, we have to look to the first question.

Now, more and more, we (as a society) are calling for heads to roll.

My insurance company tried to take that stand with me after my accident.  No-one got ticketed, I wasn't speeding or intoxicated...it was simply an accident.  I told them that that's what i paid premiums for...and they eventually agreed.

In this case I too would need to see the entire police report.  Why was he charged?  Because he let her drive without a license? 

Now, more and more, we (as a society) are calling for heads to roll. My insurance company tried to take that stand with me after my accident. No-one got ticketed, I wasn't speeding or intoxicated...it was simply an accident. I told them that that's what i paid premiums for...and they eventually agreed. In this case I too would need to see the entire police report. Why was he charged? Because he let her drive without a license?

Well I'd be guessing at this point, but I'll give it a shot. More than likely she had a "learners permit". That means she can drive with a licensed driver in the vehicle with her. But in PA that also means that the licensed driver is fully responsible for what happens while the vehicle is in motion. So "if" she did something majorly wrong/ illegal/ unlawful while operating said vehicle and it resulted in the death of the woman and baby, then he is considered at fault. And whether or not we believe he should, he will be charged and tried for manslaughter and vehicular homicide. And will more than likely be convicted for it. But to be honest, not having seen the report....this is just a guess. But it's also very likely to be right on.

DrMiler, agreed, if there was anything illegal or negligent that led to the accident, he is responsible (which is the point of the whole "learner's permit" thing in the first place). My question would be, was there an overt action that led to the accident, or was it simply an accident. Criminal charges should only be levelled for criminal activity, not because a fatal tragedy occured.

I would want to match the police statement with the EMS Run Report to see what happened and if the reported injuries were consistant with the damage to vehicles... but that's just me. lol

DrMiler, agreed, if there was anything illegal or negligent that led to the accident, he is responsible (which is the point of the whole "learner's permit" thing in the first place). My question would be, was there an overt action that led to the accident, or was it simply an accident. Criminal charges should only be levelled for criminal activity, not because a fatal tragedy occured.

If it happened due to negligence on his or her part than the fatality "would" be considered a criminal activity. Which on the surface is what it appears to be. Hence the charges of manslaughter and vehicular homicide. I'd be willing to bet that she took her eyes off the road and never saw it coming. Whatcha want to bet it involved a cell phone or the radio?

No bet, I've seen too many of both.

So (working with that scenario) is changing the station a criminal act?

We have seperated "Negligent Homicide" and "Vehicular Manslaughter" from the degrees of murder because we acknowledge that changing a radio station is a far cry from beating someone's head in with a baseball bat. Unfortunatly we haven't been smart enough to come up with different punishments. Quite literally, the station changer could end up in the same cell as the murderer. The same form of punishment for two vastly different crimes?

No bet, I've seen too many of both. So (working with that scenario) is changing the station a criminal act? We have seperated "Negligent Homicide" and "Vehicular Manslaughter" from the degrees of murder because we acknowledge that changing a radio station is a far cry from beating someone's head in with a baseball bat. Unfortunatly we haven't been smart enough to come up with different punishments. Quite literally, the station changer could end up in the same cell as the murderer. The same form of punishment for two vastly different crimes?

The station changer would be guilty of "negligent homocide". And it's not always the same punishment. A lot of times the murder ends up on death row. That is the difference. It takes the death penalty off the table for negligent homocide.

BTW HC... your linked story isn't about a PA man. It's about a "Houston, TX" man. And in your linked story....Hang dad out to try!

Father faces charges for allegedly letting underage daughter drive Police say Barry Holste gave his 14-year-old daughter permission to take the car last week. ABC13 Eyewitness News (12/01/04 - HOUSTON) — A local father faces a criminal charge for allegedly letting his daughter drive his SUV. She got into an accident that badly hurt two friends. Barry Holste faces a charge of injury to a minor. Late Thursday night, Holste's daughter was driving his SUV when she crashed it on the Southwest Freeway near Bellaire. The daughter suffered a broken leg. Two friends in the truck remain in intensive care, one with a broken neck and the other with bleeding in the brain.

I heard this story on the news. The daughter didn't have a learners permit, so she was sited. The dad took her into an empty parking lot of the local school, a fenced in lot. Somehow the daughter had her foot on the gas pedal and not the brake. The car went through the fence and kept going and into the home of the lady who was playing with her baby in their yard. The lady tossed the baby aside into the bushes when she realised what was happening. Unfortunately the lady was killed on impact.

What my question is why didn't the father react when he realised what was happening? Possibly the quickness in which it happened because I don't know what the distance the school lot was from the home. Perhaps seeing what was going on and not reacting quickly enough out of fear? I don't know. It's a sad situation for all concerned. He will be held responsible ultimately because he's the adult and the daughter didn't have a permit.

Should he be convicted? Neither of them were drinking, there wasn't any report of cell phone usage or anything that could have possibly distracted them. A life is gone. It's hard to decide because it was a tragic accident. Not planned, not pre-meditated.

He probably made an attempt to take control of the car and yelled to the daughter to step on the brake and she kept stepping on the gas...because she was so out of sorts...that's what I think may have happened when the car plunged into the yard.

I just realized that... the link was wrong. GRRRRRRRRR. The story I meant to link to is this: Link
I've fixed it above, too.

Hate it when that happens... a victim of too many windows open.

Additional information:

"Miller's daughter did not have a learner's permit and hit the gas pedal instead of the brake, prosecutors said. Miller told authorities that he tried to push the brake pedal with his hands as the car surged toward McGinley."

Does that change things for you? That she didn't have a permit? I'm torn. One family is already destroyed... is it right to destroy another one? I just don't know.

I told them that that's what i paid premiums for...

AMEN!

Now, more and more, we (as a society) are calling for heads to roll. "Somebody died, somebody must pay!"

I understand the mentality, but is it justified?

Drmiler:

And in your linked story....Hang dad out to try!

Absolutely!

Perhaps seeing what was going on and not reacting quickly enough out of fear?

I hesitate to judge him, because I can too easily imagine myself in his place. When my daughter was learning to drive, my husband had to take her out. I just couldn't do it. As it is, I've ridden with her once, the day she got her license. I found myself wondering, "How on earth did they give her a license???" I couldn't believe she had passed the exam. I thought we'd never get home in one piece. Needless to say, license or no, we still required her to drive with an adult for quite some time after that. She's much more responsible now, and I'm glad that we made her wait the extra time before letting her drive alone.

NH doesn't have a permit law. Anyone who is 16 years of age may drive with a licensed driver over 21 in the vehicle, so I'm not sure whether the permit issue is a biggie for me.

I hesitate to judge him, because I can too easily imagine myself in his place. When my daughter was learning to drive, my husband had to take her out. I just couldn't do it. As it is, I've ridden with her once, the day she got her license. I found myself wondering, "How on earth did they give her a license???" I couldn't believe she had passed the exam. I thought we'd never get home in one piece. Needless to say, license or no, we still required her to drive with an adult for quite some time after that. She's much more responsible now, and I'm glad that we made her wait the extra time before letting her drive alone. NH doesn't have a permit law. Anyone who is 16 years of age may drive with a licensed driver over 21 in the vehicle, so I'm not sure whether the permit issue is a biggie for me.

I learned the hard way. Dad took me out in the middle of a 65 acre field, gave me a set of keys and said drive! And do not let me find out you were on the road! Then he did the same to my 15year old brother. We had great times racing around that field. But you know what...when we were all done, "both" of us knew how to handle our vehicles and how not to push them to far. Then he took me in for the "test"!

I don't think permits matter much, and is a non issue for me, considering all you have to prove to get a permit, is show up and prove you are breathing. I had to buy my own car to learn in, and my parents took me in the country to teach me. After I got licenced my boyfriend at the time took me out in the country and taught me how to drive a manual.

I can't imagine learning in a parking lot, but my first driving lessons were in golf carts. Do I think that the father should be held accountable, in a way, yes, in another way, no.

I don't think he is criminally responcable, but finacially yes. I do think he should have to pay for the young mothers funeral, and establish a fund for the infants future. Putting him in jail/prison would serve no purpose whatsoever, especially since he was making an effort to stop the car. The daughter should get comunity service, and be required to help her father make said payments to the family. She should do at least some of her CS time in an orphanage or assisting other children like the infant that she took the mother from, and not allowed to get her license till age 18 or even 21, with proffessional drivers ed teachers, and she will need theripy. Again, I don't think prison/jail time would serve any purpose for her either.

Speaking from experiance, the emotional termoil that the daughter and father are going through is already a significant punishment. Living and working in the same town as the family of the one you killed is also really hard emotionally. I still don't belive they did anything criminal. Thank God that little baby was unharmed.

We were on the other edge of the fence though, it was my brother that was killed.

I don't think he is criminally responcable, but finacially yes. I do think he should have to pay for the young mothers funeral, and establish a fund for the infants future. Putting him in jail/prison would serve no purpose whatsoever, especially since he was making an effort to stop the car. The daughter should get comunity service, and be required to help her father make said payments to the family. She should do at least some of her CS time in an orphanage or assisting other children like the infant that she took the mother from, and not allowed to get her license till age 18 or even 21, with proffessional drivers ed teachers, and she will need theripy. Again, I don't think prison/jail time would serve any purpose for her either.

Makes sense to me... these sound like very appropriate consequences. Thanks for your insight, mslady... I'm sorry for your loss.

I learned the hard way. Dad took me out in the middle of a 65 acre field, gave me a set of keys and said drive! And do not let me find out you were on the road! Then he did the same to my 15year old brother. We had great times racing around that field. But you know what...when we were all done, "both" of us knew how to handle our vehicles and how not to push them to far. Then he took me in for the "test"!

Dang... don't think I've ever seen a field that big. ! We have too many mountains in the way.

I learned the hard way. Dad took me out in the middle of a 65 acre field, gave me a set of keys and said drive! And do not let me find out you were on the road! Then he did the same to my 15year old brother. We had great times racing around that field. But you know what...when we were all done, "both" of us knew how to handle our vehicles and how not to push them to far. Then he took me in for the "test"! Dang... don't think I've ever seen a field that big. ! We have too many mountains in the way.

This was sort of like a hillside. You had to watch coming down or you'd be too fast for the corner at the bottom. "Luckily" neither of us ever flipped or rolled our vehicles. Although god knows we could have and walked away unhurt. Mine was a 1955 DeSoto Fireflight and my brothers was a 1961 Chevy Biscayne wagon. Although I can remember some horrific spins and slids.

don't think permits matter much, and is a non issue for me, considering all you have to prove to get a permit, is show up and prove you are breathing. I had to buy my own car to learn in, and my parents took me in the country to teach me. After I got licenced my boyfriend at the time took me out in the country and taught me how to drive a manual.

I don't know where you get your permits but I had to pass a written test to get mine. I remember this because I failed twice. They want to know that you at least know the basics before they say it's okay to learn to "drive" on our roads. Notice I said drive. That's why the testing. You need to know your signs, etc...

I don't think he is criminally responcable, but finacially yes. I do think he should have to pay for the young mothers funeral, and establish a fund for the infants future. Putting him in jail/prison would serve no purpose whatsoever, especially since he was making an effort to stop the car. The daughter should get comunity service, and be required to help her father make said payments to the family. She should do at least some of her CS time in an orphanage or assisting other children like the infant that she took the mother from, and not allowed to get her license till age 18 or even 21, with proffessional drivers ed teachers, and she will need theripy. Again, I don't think prison/jail time would serve any purpose for her either.

Legally speaking both fathers put themselves in a bind. By allowing the kids to drive "without" a permit did that. Check the laws where you live. But here in PA you are BOTH LEGALLY and financially responsible when you take a learners permit driver out on the road. Let them do something wrong and get a ticket....who gets the ticket? That's right the "licenced" driver does!

I don't know where you get your permits but I had to pass a written test to get mine. I remember this because I failed twice.

In Maine you have to pass a test to get the permit too.

As I said earlier, NH doesn't require a permit. A teen driver may take to the roads (in a car with a licensed driver over the age of 21) six months prior to their 16th birthday -- can you say "yikes??" I watched a special on Dateline (or one of those news programs) that stated the part of the brain that determines judgment and reflexes isn't fully developed until age 21. Talk about a scary documentary. I made the kid sit and watch it with me... full of statistics about how reckless teen drivers can be... and the deadly consequences that can result.

She had her first accident (minor - not involving anyone else) two weeks later. Guess some lessons have to be learned the hard way.

In Maine you have to pass a test to get the permit too. As I said earlier, NH doesn't require a permit. A teen driver may take to the roads (in a car with a licensed driver over the age of 21) six months prior to their 16th birthday -- can you say "yikes??"

"Yikes" is not quite the word that I personally would choose to use. There are other better descriptive terms. But "yikes" will do since we're in mixed company.

I don't know where you get your permits but I had to pass a written test to get mine. I remember this because I failed twice. They want to know that you at least know the basics before they say it's okay to learn to "drive" on our roads. Notice I said drive. That's why the testing. You need to know your signs, etc...

Nebraska. I still have that permit, of course, it's long since invalid for anything anymore *L* I have had a licence now for 11 yrs. I had the flu the day I got the permit, my dad took me in there, all sick, showed them my birth certificate, filled out the form, all I did was sign and stand for the flash. And there it was, my drivers permit 2 days after my 15th birthday.

The only ones that have to test are the 14 yr olds with school permits, and at 16 for the licence, but now there is a TON more paper work associated with the licence, but still not the permits.

Legally speaking both fathers put themselves in a bind. By allowing the kids to drive "without" a permit did that. Check the laws where you live. But here in PA you are BOTH LEGALLY and financially responsible when you take a learners permit driver out on the road. Let them do something wrong and get a ticket....who gets the ticket? That's right the "licenced" driver does!

I was giving an opinion, not a legal fact. And I was only talking about the currently posted one, where the baby was tossed to saftey by the mother before she died.

Question, do you mean CRIMINALLY instead of Legally? Since the financial obligation would be a legal obligation... allong with the CS, and other various punishments I was talking about. Besides, As I said before, what perpose does it serve for either of them to be in prison? It was an accident, dispite that peice of plastic saying she could drive with an adult, the plastic wouldn't have changed a thing. It's not like they are going to do it again, or don't regret profusly what happened..... Does anyone even know what the family of the young mother wants done? If THEY think it was a tragic accident or Manslaughter? I think they should have at least some say in it.

Question, do you mean CRIMINALLY instead of Legally?

He's been charged with involuntary manslaughter and vehicular homicide. I was asking if he should be convicted.

Does anyone even know what the family of the young mother wants done? If THEY think it was a tragic accident or Manslaughter? I think they should have at least some say in it.

The mother of the woman who was killed blames the father, but feels for their family as well.

Quote: "Elizabeth McGinley blames Richard Miller for her daughter's death, saying that he never should have allowed a 15-year-old untrained driver behind the wheel. However, she also feels sorry for Miller's daughter. 'I kind of feel sorry for her because I feel her life's been ruined, too,' she said."

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