A Little More Appreciation Wouldn't Hurt You.

from JoeUser Forums
Think about this for a moment...
You sit in front of your PC and open your graphic program with a million ideas in your head. You then spend hours trying to transfer those ideas into a digital drawing pad. The end result is a decent, well thought out skin or wallpaper design that you want to FREELY share with people that might find it as useful as you do. And you go on to upload the file to your favorite skinning site only to find out that some arrogant idiot for some absurd reason totally unknown to you and with out even extending a 'thank you' slaps a big ol' 2 rating to your work. Aint that a B!*ch?

Lately I've been browsing thru the libraries and I have noticed how many nice and complete skins are "tagged" with well below average ratings with not one single word of comment.
C'mon people, if you can’t have at least the decency to extend a simple 'thank you' then don’t humiliate the authors with your idiotic ratings. And if you really find something bad on the work or have a valid reason for rating low, at least have the courtesy to post your reason.
I can understand a low rating on a sloppy skin or an incomplete skin, because that shows laziness on behalf of the author, but what I have seen on the past few days is totally ridiculous. That is why some times I think there should be an option when uploading a skin to choose if you want the skin to be rated or not.
So before you let your low-rating-trigger-finger do the job, think about the originality, time invested and functionality of the skin rather than your pitiful little reasons such as; 'I don’t like red' or 'I don’t like that author' or 'that skin is getting more ratings/download than mine'
Grow the hell up. We are here to support each others not to screw each others.
20,453 views 68 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top

but what I have seen on the past few days is totally ridiculous.

A_67 ....that, unfortunately is just an 'opinion'....based around your own preconceptions and expectations of the 'worth' of a skin/wall.

What 'must' be appreciated is that it is almost an absolute certainty that there will exist people with quite radically different opinions of a works 'value' or standard [or sexiness, even] to yours.

When a rating appears unfairly wrong [read - low] and a skinner brings it to our attention it's almost always a simple divergent opinion, and not a 'vindictive' act....the latter is usually evident via 'trends'.

Two million plus members....chances are there's two million plus opinions....

Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Two million plus members....chances are there's two million plus opinions


You are totally correct. Opinions may/will vary between one person and the next. The post is intended to shine a brighter light on the practice of the rating process.
I can almost bet that more than half of the people that rate don’t take under consideration the process of creating a skin, just as I'm willing to bet that most of them don’t even download the skin to base their rating on.
SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I can almost bet that more than half of the people that rate don’t take under consideration the process of creating a skin, just as I'm willing to bet that most of them don’t even download the skin to base their rating on.



You could not have said it better AP.
I totally agree with you on this subject but I also hope that it does not go bad and turn into yet another bash type thread.
The moderators of WC can keep up with so much without things being brought to their attention. Therefore, the hope that this thread stays calm. It is not the fault of the site it is the fault of some of the users of it.

So before you let your low-rating-trigger-finger do the job, think about the originality, time invested and functionality of the skin rather than your pitiful little reasons such as; 'I don’t like red' or 'I don’t like that author' or 'that skin is getting more ratings/download than mine'


I believe this is the biggest problem. Too many skins being rated without even being downloaded and looked over. Also without and comment left to explain why.
It would be very nice if some things could get changed here.
Lets say that you cannot rate a skin until you have downloaded it. Now I understand that there will still be no way of telling that that person actually looked it over but it's a start.

Not able to rate unless you have left a comment. This one has been brought up before and I still stand by it. It would make people have to think before they just pushed a button.

I myself rate very few skins and have never rated a skin unless I have downloaded it and looked it over. I am also pretty sure that every time I have left a comment.

Just my added thoughts.

Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I may have rated a screenshot about a year ago....

There is no accounting for taste, as has been said.

On a serious note - it seems only reasonable for an author to request that low ratings (below 2 stars) are qualified with a comment indicating the main reason for the low rating.

IMHO, a rating of 3 stars or better holds no arguement for a rating comment expectation.

A_67, your obvious understanding of what it takes to imagine, design and create the reality of a skin certainly lends eloquence to your post.

I second the idea of presenting the post as a reminder to take all the effort into account before rating anything.
Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Paxx used to have a rating guide that you could use to calculate ratings.  You would read the definition of what to consider, and there were clearly defined numbers to use to express your evaluation for the skin.  Once you plugged all your numbers into the graph, it would actually calculate the rating for you.  I liked the idea of something like that; however, whenever I used it the ratings actually came out lower than I would like to give.  This made me reevaluate my  own rating habits... and I came to the conclusion that I had a lot of emotional baggage attached to my rates.  It was a good training tool for me, to learn what to consider when I rated.

I still thought something like that might be good though, to have a formula that would have to be filled out as the only means to rate.  I thought perhaps a lot of the emotional response could be excluded if you  could only rate by submitting the numbers through the formula with the stipulation that you could only rate once until there was a major update (to keep a tenderheart like me from going back and fudging the numbers).  At the least, maybe going through some extended process to make a rate might slow hit-and-run raters some.

Having the weighted rate value was a good idea and it does  help to some extent.  The loyal, experienced members of the community can make a difference when they do rate.  Unfortunately, though, I suspect that lots of times these are the people who are creating and using their own stuff and  perhaps that means that they are not actively submitting rates.  It is something that I hadn't considered before, that perhaps one way of helping the community once you have made it through the ranks is to come back and do this more often.  Another thing I know is that the more honest rates there are on a skin, the less a wild rate will affect it.  I also agree with Keila that it is important to actually test a skin before you rate it.

Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I second the idea of presenting the post as a reminder to take all the effort into account before rating anything.


I third that. I am not yet able to vote on skins which is probably very wise as I don't have the skills to create skins from scratch I only know how to recolor so far. A_67 I believe is quite correct in his theory that many of us judge a skin on a first glance basis. I am also guilty of this but, I am starting to learn and appreciate the work all of you put into your creations. I am a color nut. I download skins that have a color or non-color that catches my eye. Right now this is the only way i can judge because of my inexperience. I think some who are able to vote probably use this same method of judging and vote by that criteria alone. don't let inexperience determine a vote. Possibly a comment or a question reguarding the skin or it properties would be in order before voting, definately in order after voting so the author will be able to understand your specific reasons, whether they are positive or negative.

Sorry, im rambling with no organised thoughts right now so i'll stop before I start making sense.
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Just a wild thought, could the "Rate this skin" button be moved to the bottom of the "comments" page and let the current rating show where it does presently? This might encourage those wanting to rate the skin to also place a comment, or at least see what other people are saying. We could end up with better comments by comparing opinions of others with our own thoughts about a new skin we've just downloaded and are trying out.
Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I am not yet able to vote on skins

_TAPPER_ ...you 'should' be able to....check your 'level'....

Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
This is probably too much, but:
What if some type of/or additional rating options were on WB itself?
Once you have it installed - pull up configure and there on the right 'Rate This Skin" (no too close to the delete option) whereas you can rate it based on either 1st Impression or After Use.

I don't rate a lot (laugh later) but I don't rate a skin until after I have used it. I don't usually comment on a skin unless I have used it - unless I'm at work and it looks good, then I'll leave a comment saying this looks like something I'll be getting when I get home.

might be good though, to have a formula that would have to be filled out as the only means to rate

I like that. you see reviews like that pretty much everywhere. Either just pros and cons or divided into areas. For those skinners who want it, the formula info would be helpful.
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I agree with you 100% AP_67. And although Paul has a good point that with so many members there are bound to be divergent opinions, it is just as true that with so many members there are bound to be a lot of jerks.

There have been some good suggestions as to how to solve this problem. As for not being able to rate a skin you haven't downloaded, this is usually a good policy, but sometimes the artwork on a piece can be so bad that a download is superfluous, especially if it's just a retread of a commonly used object. How many hideous digital clocks are out there, and how much test-driving of them is needed, anyway?

I think the most expedient way to eliminate 100% of these "ratings bombs" is just to make voters sign their name. (And requiring a comment would be nice too.) Any anonymous system is just begging for abuse. How many people are going to stand up and say 'All 10 other voters gave this a 10, but I'm gonna give it a 1 and my name is blah blah blah.' People who anonymously bomb ratings are cowards, and won't do it in public.

If a ratings detail page were implemented where we could see each voter's name along with their vote and mandatory comment, two things would happen:
1. Ratings sabotage would stop.
2. Skins would get better because skinners would actually get constructive criticism from people that didn't like their skins. Useless comments like '1 star - this sucks' could be easily deleted by moderators.

Anyway, that's just my divergent opinion!
Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Paxx used to have a rating guide that you could use to calculate ratings. You would read the definition of what to consider, and there were clearly defined numbers to use to express your evaluation for the skin. Once you plugged all your numbers into the graph, it would actually calculate the rating for you. I liked the idea of something like that; however, whenever I used it the ratings actually came out lower than I would like to give. This made me reevaluate my own rating habits... and I came to the conclusion that I had a lot of emotional baggage attached to my rates. It was a good training tool for me, to learn what to consider when I rated.


If you haven't seen the page gm mentioned ... Link
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The page is most excellent and is now bookmarked.

Thank you.
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I don't think an anonymous rating system simply benefits 'cowards'....what it DOES do is eliminate retalliatory ratings, good OR bad.

As someone who can/does see the ratings I can say it takes a person who is not personally pre-occupied with his own 'status' or public success/perception to NOT become piqued and want to eke revenge.  There's even the issue of "gee...Frogboy [example] gave it a '9'....he knows his stuff...ergo to be seen to know my stuff as well as he I better match his opinion/rating" [sad, but quite possible].

If someone gives me a '1'...when I 'naturally think its sheer brilliance personified' I just mutter 'what would he know, anyway?' and move on.  I have enough 'fun' responding to others' concerns about THEIR works maybe being targetted unfairly to ever bother with my own.....

Building a better mousetrap is always the dream of the mad inventor...so devising a better 'rating system' is a frequent and popular topic for skinners/artists.

There really only is ONE real issue with ratings...and that is to devise a way to get MORE of them applied to each work/upload.  The more there are the more 'accurately' the mean reflects the work's true appreciation.

OK...and since I was pedantic about 'only one'...the other issue is 'drive-bys'....people who just look at a  bunch of works on a page and madly click 'buttons' to up their rating count...a self-serving act which only degrades the efforts of those who apply a rating critically.

A 'suggested' solution to this would be to recode the site to only have a work's rating button active in detail view...and perhaps then only once a download is activated.

This will put an effective stop to the drive-bys [by slowing the process].....but will also result in fewer [albeit maybe more reasoned] ratings being applied.

So....back to that 'only one' issue again....how to get a better mean through more rating applications?  One 'help' was to weight rating effect via 'experience'...eg a Journeman's rating holds more sway than an Apprentice....but that only strengthens the 'professional/expert opinion' and does not always reflect a Joe-Average downloader's general concensus.

The only thing that'll do that is ratings .....lots of them.

Maybe quirky site-coding [T-Man will hate me] where the rating average is adjusted by some quaint formula of download count popularity....probably has its OWN issues...and isn't viable....but just a thought...

Perhaps we have a 'record' of how many ratings each person does in a given time...and if it ain't enough we send a goon squad around to their house to re-adjust their privates.....that'll work...

All I want is $10 dollars for every thread that references 'ratings' in its subject body....and retire to the South of France and take up wine drinking....

 

Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I don't think an anonymous rating system simply benefits 'cowards'....what it DOES do is eliminate retalliatory ratings, good OR bad.


Not really... It reduces ratings given in retaliation for other ratings (you can't retaliate against someone you can't identify) but it encourages every other form of ratings abuse by making the person unaccountable for the rating they give. If ratings were signed, we could see that Jafo gives Frogboy nothing but 1s, or that Jafo and Frogboy give each other nothing but 10s.

I don't disagree that allowing people to know the identity of someone who gave them a bad rating can provoke poor behaviour, but usually it is the promise of anonymity that lets people act on their baser instincts. When someone has to stand up and say 'My name is so and so and this is what I think' they almost always try to do the right thing, and justify their actions. And if two people nonetheless still choose to engage in retaliation or collusion, at least it will be out in the open and easy to see.

As for the need to have more, more, MORE ratings, I could not agree more. Perhaps the thing to do is keep a count of someone's downloads, and after they have downloaded say 5 or 10 things, not let them download any more until they have rated everything they downloaded. If it was worth downloading, it is worth rating. Then items with thousands of downloads would have thousands of ratings, and would be very resistant to ratings abuse.

As for the goon squad, I'm always in the market for reliable goons, so if you have any recommendations, please advise...
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top

The concept of anonymous 'voting' is strongly based in the democratic process,  A secret ballot is far more acceptable than something that might lead to intimidation...

Some countries [eg. Oz] make the 'right to vote' compulsory...you are free to vote as you wish....BUT you must vote for something/one. [that actually equates legally to having your name checked off on the roll...and your insertion of the paper in the slot...you don't actually have to make a 'mark']...

Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
That begs the question of why democratic governments favour anonymous ballots. In real life, politics is considered by many to be a life or death matter. This can lead to severe consequences in the real world for divergent political opinions: discrimination in the workplace, threat of violence, vandalism, etc. With Wincustomize being a virtual community, the downside to one's vote becoming known is minimal, since people's lives and livelihood are not affected by the outcome. The upside is that it fights corruption, which is rife in anonymous elections.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that in democratic elected bodies, accountability is given priority: the votes of all congressmen, MP's, school boards, city councils, etc are a matter of public record. Everyone knows how everyone votes. Anonymity stifles debate... People tend not to discuss issues if they want to keep their opinion/vote a secret, and are able to do so.

Personally, I don't view rating a skin as comparable to electing the leader of a nation. I view it as more comparable to olympic judging: passing judgement on a specific performance. In that venue, and as I believe in this one, accountability and openness are preferable to secrecy.

But I'll reiterate what I said before: mandatory voting, even if anonymous, would produce a much more effective (and probably accurate/ethical) system than the current one.

But anyway, I don't want to digress into a political discussion. I was just hoping for a better virtual world. I defer to the will of the majority.

Cheers...
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top
What about where there's a seperate rating system for 'staff' (which could loosely apply to all people above a certain user level), and a type of general public vote? This, in turn, will allow users to see an 'expert' opinion (i.e. Frogboy, Jafo, etc.), but, also, what the peasants think.

Although most people have seen this type of system elsewhere, it does seem to eliminate the problem of people on rating rampages.
Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top
first of all, i salute you A_67 for this thread. It is very illuminating and it certainly tell how "WE" in general should rate a skin. However, i can not also dispute those opinions that somehow deviate a little from what is said. anyway, that is how i see things....

you 'should' be able to....check your 'level'....

so apprentices can rate....(know that already) but do i still have to visit the author's personal page just so i can rate the skin? That is what i do to rate skins by the way. Are there any other way? How about those who doesn't have a personal page, can i rate their skins to? If so, how?
Reply #19 from WinCustomize Forums Top
u've got a point there A_67 but for some reason, people just like to compete. that's what i thought it was all about til i finally realized that making skins isn't for compition, it's for appreciation. so i learned what this website was all about.

Point is: we should all have respect and to each other..... in the (You think You're better than me) article i've said this many times ...but i guess no body has any respect to 14 year olds!!!

By the way i post lots of comments to show that i appreciate people's skins SO DON"T THINK THAT I DON"T.
Reply #20 from WinCustomize Forums Top
so apprentices can rate....(


if they can....WHY CAN'T I ???!!!
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top
if they can....WHY CAN'T I ???!!!

bash, m'pal, here is a hint. Visit the author's personal page. You (even citizens) should be able to rate skins there. Well that is how i rate skins. Try mine for a start http://greatsphynx.wincustomize.com Click on the More Details Button on any of the skins, then you will be able to rate. But as to some other methods, i don't know.
Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I just downloaded a work by a very accomplished skinner. The work is very sloppy. I would guess she/he put about 50% of care into the work. If I leave them a comment suggesting anything but the work is great I WILL get flamed. I have seen it over and over and over. I feel my only choice is to express my opinion via rating. I am here to make friends, not enemies.

Point is: we should all have respect and to each other..... in the (You think You're better than me) article i've said this many times ...but i guess no body has any respect to 14 year olds!!!


Bash, people responded to your comment in that thread. Why bring it to another thread? There is no age discrimination around here. Please stop trying to create a fuss over nothing.
Reply #23 from WinCustomize Forums Top
bash, m'pal, here is a hint. Visit the author's personal page. You (even citizens) should be able to rate skins there. Well that is how i rate skins. Try mine for a start Link Click on the More Details Button on any of the skins, then you will be able to rate. But as to some other methods, i don't know.


IT WORKED !!!!

i can rate skins!!!!

Thankx Sphynx

Bash, people responded to your comment in that thread. Why bring it to another thread? There is no age discrimination around here. Please stop trying to create a fuss over nothing.


yea u're right... i mean i'm telling everybody to be nice to each other and here i am doing the same thing i just told people not to do.
Reply #24 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm of the same opinion as NT. There are skins or themes or icons that I find to be of bad quality (highly subjective standard, but there's no accounting for tastes). I prefer to give them a lower rating and leave it at that, instead of launching into a tirade (constructive or otherwise) that in all likelihood will create a shitstorm.

Sometimes even the most subtle of comments can be misinterpreted by the addressee or their clique of hanger-ons (the latter being much more likely). It's an issue I'd rather avoid (oh the screams of me not being a skinner and that I should have no right to rate anything, I can hear them echoing in my cerebrum already).

Mind you, I use the same approach for rating skins that I find to be particularly impressive or that are alinged with my personal tastes.

As a side note, having been around skins sites for a very, very long time, and having posted a lot of comments over the years, I've kind of burnt out and find it exceptionally hard to come up with anything more substantial than "that's cool!" or "it suxxx".

~Mack
Reply #25 from WinCustomize Forums Top
IT WORKED !!!!

i can rate skins!!!!


it's good you finally figured it out bash. glad i could help.