Finally Weighing in on the ID Debate

There have been a slew of articles on the issue of teaching Intelligent Design in the schools, so, it's only natural that I add my 2 cents here.

While I am a devout Christian, I don't know that any lengthy discussion of Intelligent Design is appropriate for public schools. The primary reason, as stated by others more eloquent on the subject than I, are the lack of hard data to support the theory of ID, which belongs in the category of religion/philosophy, rather than science. Public education should be as objective as possible, and be rather centrist in its approach, because the needs of a wide variety of individuals must be met as best as possible with a universal curriculum. This means some concepts will be left out, always to the chagrin of certain individuals.

Those who hammer in with their arguments to push ID in the schools miss out on one critical fact. Our country is one where individual liberties are preserved more often than not, especially in the area of education. You ARE NOT FORCED to send your children to public schools.

"But", the critic will cry, "private schools are expensive". I will concede that most private schools are, indeed, expensive. But first I will adress the question of what price would you put on giving your children a quality education? How much is too much? After all, you are providing your child with the tools that will be significant factors in determining their success and failure.

But more importantly, you don't have to pay a single dime to educate your child outside of the public school system. The materials you need to teach your child at home can be obtained at your local library. For those in states where the school board has final say to approve or disapprove of your curriculum, you can still use library materials; all it takes is the skill to properly word your plan of education to the school board (and if you lack such skills, you might want to reconsider the idea of homeschooling and go back to the private school option). Many church-based private schools also offer scholarships to church members and needy students, as well as "work study" options where the parent works off all or part of their children's tuition.

As a society, we have become far too reliant on the public school system. We expect the impossible out of teachers, asking them to be counselors, surrogate parents, janitors, jailers, and many other tasks all while paying them a salary that is less than that made by union laborers in many fields. While teachers work hard at being up to the task (usually quite admirably, I might add), they simply are unable to be all things to all children.

The public school system in this nation is more than adequate. It has produced great minds in all fields. But it has its limitations, a fact even its most ardent apologists will readily concede. It is not the place for a faith based education.

If you want your student to learn creationism (by any name), the best place to teach that is likely in the home or church setting. That way, for instance, the child of Baptist parents is not taught creationism according to groups such as the Raelians, Scientologists, or Mormons, which would certainly be at odds with their chosen faith (if you're Baptist, PLEASE don't split hairs over my use of the word "chosen"; predestination is another topic ENTIRELY). Parents who do not wish to send their children to private school or to homeschool may wish to set aside time outside of the school setting to teach their children THEIR views of the origins of the species. Heck, they could even bring SEVERAL students in to teach.

But we must remember that public schools must hypothetically serve the needs of the minority within our society as well as the majority. This means that they must eliminate a lot of good, well established thought in the interests of serving the public. They are, however, ONE option in educating one's child; a fact that the religious faithful would do well to consider.

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Reply #1 Top
while suggesting a single book that might help them explore it.That book is not the Bible, btw. It's called "Of Pandas and People."


Link
Again, sincerely not trying to be a smartass...
Reply #2 Top

That was never even suggested, Gid. All they want to do is let kids know that Darwins theory has been the source of great debates, that the theory of ID exists, and if the kids want to learn more they will have to check it out on their own, while suggesting a single book that might help them explore it.

There is no theory of intelligent design. There is the random hypothesis of intelligent design and it doesn't warrant being mentioned any more than any other unsupported claim.

Reply #3 Top

There is the random hypothesis of intelligent design and it doesn't warrant being mentioned any more than any other unsupported claim.

With the advent of cloning, I think it does.

Reply #4 Top
DP
Reply #5 Top
All they want to do is let kids know that Darwins theory has been the source of great debates, that the theory of ID exists, and if the kids want to learn more they will have to check it out on their own


Why mention that ID exists, but that no other theories of creation do? It is just as "intolerant" to say that the only options are evolution and ID as it is to say that the only option is evolution. Not that evolution even begins to mention the origin of life, but that's not the point here.

If all they want is for students to keep an open mind while studying evolution, they can stop after the part about Darwin's theory being the source of debate.
Reply #6 Top
With the advent of cloning, I think it does.


How does cloning lend scientific credibility to ID?
Reply #7 Top
Gideon: This gets an insightful from me. Very well said.
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Quote: "(if you're Baptist, PLEASE don't split hairs over my use of the word "chosen"; predestination is another topic ENTIRELY)"

*grinning*
Reply #9 Top

How does cloning lend scientific credibility to ID?

Genetic manipulation, which is what ID is all about.

Reply #10 Top
Genetic manipulation, which is what ID is all about.


I'd say ID is more about who or what is manipulating those genes, not the manipulation of the genes themselves.
Reply #11 Top

I'd say ID is more about who or what is manipulating those genes, not the manipulation of the genes themselves.

And there you would be wrong.  For within ID, there are many schools of thought of what or who is doing the manipulating.  The Theory only deals with the fact that life is just a little TOO convient to be a random occurance.  That is all it is saying.

Reply #12 Top
The Theory only deals with the fact that life is just a little TOO convient to be a random occurance.


Ok, first, let's all agree that it's not a theory, cuz its not. Second, if it deals with the fact that life is too complex to have occurred randomly, then it deals with how life occurred, or who or what started life, i.e. who or what manipulates genes, not gene manipulation.

And if it does deal with gene manipulation, wouldn't all of this be over rather quickly if people just stopped saying Intelligent Design? Wouldn't this all be over if they just referred to it as genetics?
Reply #13 Top
Ok, first, let's all agree that it's not a theory, cuz its not.


By your say so it's not. And if that's all true then why is is it being called a theory by most sources on the web including scientific ones? Please pay attention to the one from ucsd.
Link

And if it does deal with gene manipulation, wouldn't all of this be over rather quickly if people just stopped saying Intelligent Design? Wouldn't this all be over if they just referred to it as genetics?



Nope because the term "genetics" does NOT deal with who's doing the manipulating!
Reply #14 Top
My larger point remains. Whatever your views, public schools are an option you CHOOSE for your children.
Reply #15 Top
By your say so it's not. And if that's all true then why is is it being called a theory by most sources on the web including scientific ones?


By the very disclaimer's say so it's not. It describes theories as "well-tested." If you want to link me to the sites documenting the tests done on ID, you might change my mind.

Nope because the term "genetics" does NOT deal with who's doing the manipulating!


That's my entire point! I was responding to drguy's claim that gene manipulation somehow lends scientific credibility to intelligent design. If gene manipulation did so, we could just call ID genetics and be done with this whole issue. We can't, however, because ID isn't concerned with the fact that genes can be manipulated. We all know that genes can be manipulated. We don't know by who or what, though.
Reply #16 Top

We all know that genes can be manipulated. We don't know by who or what, though.

Nor does ID say who or what.  SO you are in essence saying that ID is a viable alternative that does explain some of the holes in evolution?

Reply #17 Top
Nor does ID say who or what. SO you are in essence saying that ID is a viable alternative that does explain some of the holes in evolution?


No, I'm saying that they deal with two different things. Evolution deals with how certain species survive and change over time. ID deals with creation. I'm saying ID is not concerned with genetic manipulation, and if it is, it should be called genetics. I'm saying that ID is concerned with ID is concerned with who or what initially manipulated genes to put start life on the planet. And I'm saying that that is untestable, and not a science.
Reply #18 Top

No, I'm saying that they deal with two different things. Evolution deals with how certain species survive and change over time. ID deals with creation

But that is wrong.  ID does not deal anymore with creation than does Evolution.  I dont recall anyone saying who or how life was seeded, only that in one case it is a random genetic mutations, and in another a higher intelligence decided to tweak it so that eventually we have man sitting at the top of the food chain.  You can call it Genetics.  It is a superset of it, but it is not (to the best of my knowledge) deals with the creation of life.  At least not the theories that I have read.

Reply #19 Top
and in another a higher intelligence decided to tweak it so that eventually we have man sitting at the top of the food chain. You can call it Genetics. It is a superset of it,


The problem I have with ID (being called a science) is the higher intelligence part, which is the only part I see worth debating. What is it? Where is it? How did it get there? These are questions that can neither be scientifically tested nor answered.

You say I can call it genetics, but can you? Can the proponents of the theory? No, because genetics doesn't answer the questions posed by ID, does it? And genetics doesn't answer all of the questions because genetics is concerned with the actual manipulation of genes. It does not pose the secondary question of "who manipulates the genes." ID does, and thus opens the door for a number of untestable hypotheses.

If ID is a superset of genetics, it must accept the basic tenets and findings of genetics. Therefore, there is no difference between the two when it comes to the question of "Can genes be manipulated?" They both agree that they can. However, ID goes one step further to ask "Who manipulates?" ID does not care about the process, nor does it care about the fact that humans can manipulate genes. It cares about the "Who?" No matter how in tune ID may be with genetics, it's concern is with the "Who?", and that's not scientific.
Reply #20 Top
By your say so it's not. And if that's all true then why is is it being called a theory by most sources on the web including scientific ones?


By the very disclaimer's say so it's not. It describes theories as "well-tested." If you want to link me to the sites documenting the tests done on ID, you might change my mind.


So I can therefore take it that you did not check the link I provided?
Reply #21 Top

The problem I have with ID (being called a science) is the higher intelligence part, which is the only part I see worth debating. What is it? Where is it? How did it get there? These are questions that can neither be scientifically tested nor answered.

You see that is where you are wrong.  It is being tested every day.  SETI?  I choose to beleive that one day we will find evidence of Intelligent life, and since our solar system is relatively young, who is to say we are the most advanced race in the universe?  But it is being tested, it just has not been tested positive yet.  But why seek out other planets, and signs of intelligent life if you already know that none exists?  The truth?  We dont know it does not exist.  Do we have ANY proof that it exists?  Again no.  But yet we seek.  So the question is back to you, why are we wasting our time seeking?

I dont think it is a waste of time.

Reply #22 Top
So I can therefore take it that you did not check the link I provided?


And I can therefore take it that you can't provide the new links I asked for.
Reply #23 Top
So the question is back to you, why are we wasting our time seeking?


I see your point. I was not thinking in terms of aliens.
Reply #24 Top

So I can therefore take it that you did not check the link I provided?


And I can therefore take it that you can't provide the new links I asked for.


When and "if" you can acknowledge mine.....I'll start looking for the ones you want. And like I said before, pay special attention to the one from "ucsd". You want a debate? Then do so. You made a statement and I said wrong and sent proof to back up my statement. What you got buster? And don't bother quoting some stupid disclaimer either.
Reply #25 Top

I see your point. I was not thinking in terms of aliens.

Earth to Dr Guy!  Come in Dr. Guy!

One thing you will learn about me.  I have a SETI screen saver, and was disappointed by the movie Contact!  I dont dress up in Star Trek uniform (except once), but I have seen every episode of every series and have all the movies.

Any questions?