There I go again, sounding all dogmatic and pompous.

** shakes head ** how cringe worthy. (But true!)

You seem to be awfully hard on yourself! I think I understand the kind of 'embarrasment' you are describing, but, even when I've disagreed (or perhaps not been sure that I agree) with what you say, dogmaticism and pomposity don't come across at all, just a rather gentle desire to share some sort of insight...

I've just been away on a little retreat, staring silently at the walls in a Korean Zen ('seon') temple. Alas, no sudden enlightenment, just some very stiff knees! Some words though from Seng-tsan (the third Chinese Zen Patriarch) which I am currently pondering:
"If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything."
~ little bow ~

Ockham, if we attempt to comprehend the Infinite using the finite capacity of our intellect, then we’ll inevitably fail, especially if we adhere to scientific formulas and methods.

I agree. Good thing I didn't do that. I'm only writing down thinking processes here, and you seem to be telling me that the only correct answers cannot be arrived at by thinking. That sounds strangely familiar.

"Do you observe what human faculty that doctrine was designed to ignore? It was man's mind that had to be negated in order to make him fall apart. Once he surrendered reason, he was left at the mercy of two monsters whom he could not fathom or control: of a body moved by unaccountable instincts and of a soul moved by mystic revelations--he was left as the passively ravaged victim of a battle between a robot and a dictaphone."

-Ayn Rand

Gee, Andy. We're right back to where we first met. You're willing to negate your mind if it tells you something that isn't in keeping with something else you already chose to believe on faith. And that's really where we go different ways. I think all the intentions are the same, I sense the level of thinking ability to be more or less the same, you're probably better at getting your point across in words than I am, but effectively where we differ is that you DO seem dogmatic and are willing to sacrifice your mind in order to stay consistent with what belief system you've chosen.

"If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything."

There is wisdom originally from the man, himself, and one of my favorites:

'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman (self)?'
The Buddha is silent
'Then venerable Gotama, is there no Atman?'
Again the Buddha is silent.

After the inquirer leaves, Ananda asks the Buddha why he did not answer the question.

'Ananda, when asked "Is there a self?", if I had answered "There is a self" then that would be siding with those recluses and brahmanas who hold the eternalist theory.
'And Ananda, when asked "Is there no self?, if I had answered "There is no self", then that would be siding with those recluses and brahmanas who hold the annihilationist theory.'

The wisdom behind why the Buddha answered this particular inquirer in this way is one of great understanding and compassion and after this dialog, I don't feel qualified to tell it. It's probably a story better found by someone seeking it. Any interested can find one account on page 62 of What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Sri Rahula.

'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman (self)?' The Buddha is silent 'Then venerable Gotama, is there no Atman?' Again the Buddha is silent. 'Ananda, when asked "Is there a self?", if I had answered "There is a self" then that would be siding with those recluses and brahmanas who hold the eternalist theory. 'And Ananda, when asked "Is there no self?, if I had answered "There is no self", then that would be siding with those recluses and brahmanas who hold the annihilationist theory.'

That's right. It's true that words aren't necessary to experience inner peace, and it seems that the Buddha didn't want to tie himself down to any one side of an argument or intellectual theory. Buddha was more concerned about the inner-experience of enlightenment, as opposed to intellectual concepts and dogmatic principles. As the Buddha demonstrated - and Jesus too - sometimes it's wise to remain silent.

Do you observe what human faculty that doctrine was designed to ignore? It was man's mind that had to be negated in order to make him fall apart. Once he surrendered reason, he was left at the mercy of two monsters whom he could not fathom or control: of a body moved by unaccountable instincts and of a soul moved by mystic revelations--he was left as the passively ravaged victim of a battle between a robot and a dictaphone." -Ayn Rand Gee, Andy. We're right back to where we first met.

Yes, happy days Ockham my friend. It seems like an eternity ago, I must admit. It was probably last summer, and it was a good hearty discussion we had.

I think we need to treat Rand’s point about “surrendering reason” with a balance. In my opinion, I haven’t surrendered reason or the intellect completely. In fact, the views that I’ve expressed and the philosophies that underlie it hold steady logic and rationale. (At least it does to me.) The point I was trying to make about our intellect “failing”, is that our finite minds cannot fully comprehend an Infinite Existence. When it comes to ultimate issues of life, we must therefore accept that our intellect will at some point hit a brick wall. But where our intellect fails, our inner intuition (psychic awareness etc.) can lead us along the right path toward an enlightened model of reality.

Regarding deeper issues of the bigger picture and our place in it, it’s within the human potential to attain a model of the world that is sufficiently aligned with ‘What Is So’. This, to me, is what it means to become enlightened. And because of the nature of Ultimate Reality, inner peace and joy naturally go hand in hand with enlightenment.

I think that the true road to enlightenment lies in merging Eastern and Western principles and wisdom. If we exclusively embrace one or the other, then I don't think it's possible to find a completely true model of the world, and the highest form of enlightenment will elude us. (We should bear in mind that Christianity and Islam arrived after Buddhism, i.e. they were further down the evolutionary line. And as evolution denotes growth, we can expect some fruitful insights to be contained in our later religious revelations.)

A true balance brings the intellect in unison with the wisdom of the heart. Our ladder can then be set against the right wall, and depending upon the degree of the unfoldment of our soul-consciousness or psychic faculties, we can become enlightened. (That could have been worded more clearly, I’m sure, but I don't know how.)

effectively where we differ is that you DO seem dogmatic and are willing to sacrifice your mind in order to stay consistent with what belief system you've chosen.

I agree that I can sound dogmatic, but I don’t agree that I’ve sacrificed the mind in order to stay consistent with my beliefs. For me personally, the model of the world that I’ve described throughout this thread is spiritually and intellectually satisfying.

If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything."

I like that Chakgogka. Again, the Eastern way is to put the inner experience first, rather than to get caught up with intellectual concepts and opinions. It's a shame that you didn’t come away from your retreat with anything more than sore knees. But every step of our journey is significant. It seems that Buddhism is your cup of tea, and it's certainly rich with wisdom and Truth. I'm sure you'll find a satisfying path in Buddhism sooner or later.

It's a shame that you didn’t come away from your retreat with anything more than sore knees.

Not good, not bad. There was nothing to 'find', so I didn't find it...

There was nothing to 'find', so I didn't find it...

. . . but there is something to find. Our goal down here isn't necessarily to find it, (although that's possible). Rather, it's to walk the path that leads to it.

wow, i'm quite happy with the discussions that this thread has brought up.
It's all very interesting and i have to say Andy, dont be embarassed about how you share your beliefs. I think you've got some really good points as in the fact that we have intuition that guides us and the fact that our mind is just too little to comprehend infinity.
I tend to agree with this because it's very Christ-like. But the reincarnation thing isnt. I suppose the Bible isnt allowed to expose the whole thing for mankind to see, otherwize where's the fun in finding out! heh!
I havent watched that movie you mentioned, but i'm very curious about it. Thanks for mentioning it.

Chakgoka
Maybe what you're looking for cant be found staring at walls. Have you heard of peak experiences? I wouldnt be good at explaining it. It's kind of like becoming aware of the universe and infinity. And it can happen through various experiences not just in church or in meditation. For example it can be triggered by sports or by the contemplation of art or whatever. If someone can explain it better, please feel free

Maybe what you're looking for cant be found staring at walls. Have you heard of peak experiences?

Thanks island_gurl (and Andy). Yes, I've heard of peak experiences - and had a few minor ones, especially as a teenager. I suppose I should explain a little bit better (if I can!) what I meant by 'nothing to find', as it sounded (wrongly) a bit negative. It has something to do with the paradox that the more you seek a thing, the more that it eludes you. So, going on a retreat in the hope of a 'great transcendental experience' is probably counter-productive. Instead I just sat in the temple gardens listening to the crickets and insects and looking at the fish swimming amongst the water lilies in the pond. Without a lot of my usual worries and cares I was able to experience a profound satisfaction with the ordinary, so that any mystic experience with flashing lights and choirs of angels was kind of surplus to requirements

For example it can be triggered by sports or by the contemplation of art or whatever.

Indeed. Almost unbelieveably 'whatever' for me has also included doing the washing up [On less 'mystical' days I let it fester in the sink for a while ]

Thanks for starting this interesting thread...

Instead I just sat in the temple gardens listening to the crickets and insects and looking at the fish swimming amongst the water lilies in the pond. Without a lot of my usual worries and cares I was able to experience a profound satisfaction with the ordinary, so that any mystic experience with flashing lights and choirs of angels was kind of surplus to requirements

That’s great. To find the sacred in the ordinary is such a wonderful thing. A lot of people miss the simple things in life, and get caught up with the hustle and bustle of what they think will bring them peace, (i.e. more possessions, a better car, a new boob-job etc.), only to find that the deeper sense of contentment eludes them. A spiritual simplicity and humble faith is priceless, and takes us on the right path to greater contentment.

that we have intuition that guides us and the fact that our mind is just too little to comprehend infinity. I tend to agree with this because it's very Christ-like. But the reincarnation thing isnt. I suppose the Bible isnt allowed to expose the whole thing for mankind to see, otherwize where's the fun in finding out! heh!

I completely agree with you Island_gurl. If God ultimately has control over everything, then why didn’t He put it into mankind’s destiny to write one Holy Book that contained all the answers? The answer, as you say, is that half the fun lies in the exploration. Our long (and often tormented) journey promotes growth and spiritual maturity. I’m sure that at the end of the day, a greater good will arise because “we see thing through a misty glass” (1 Corinthians 13.12), rather in spite of it. It’s all part of God’s plan, and we’re destined to possess all the answer one day, anyway.

I agree with Chak. Thanks for starting this interesting thread, it's great stuff.

I suppose I should explain a little bit better (if I can!) what I meant by 'nothing to find', as it sounded (wrongly) a bit negative. It has something to do with the paradox that the more you seek a thing, the more that it eludes you. So, going on a retreat in the hope of a 'great transcendental experience' is probably counter-productive. Instead I just sat in the temple gardens listening to the crickets and insects and looking at the fish swimming amongst the water lilies in the pond. Without a lot of my usual worries and cares I was able to experience a profound satisfaction with the ordinary

Indeed that sounds better! I thought i had read a bitter disappointment in the other comment, lol, thanks for clarifying.

so that any mystic experience with flashing lights and choirs of angels was kind of surplus to requirements

Haha! No big loss eh?

Indeed. Almost unbelieveably 'whatever' for me has also included doing the washing up [On less 'mystical' days I let it fester in the sink for a while ]

THE WASHING??? That sounds odd! But i guess it can come from anything!

Thanks for starting this interesting thread...

Well thanks for making it so interesting with your comments

Andy

If God ultimately has control over everything, then why didn’t He put it into mankind’s destiny to write one Holy Book that contained all the answers? The answer, as you say, is that half the fun lies in the exploration. Our long (and often tormented) journey promotes growth and spiritual maturity. I’m sure that at the end of the day, a greater good will arise because “we see thing through a misty glass” (1 Corinthians 13.12), rather in spite of it. It’s all part of God’s plan, and we’re destined to possess all the answer one day, anyway.

Yep, we should just be humble enough to let him do all the thinking and to trust that his plan is perfect. But i guess we're too arrogant for that!

I agree with Chak. Thanks for starting this interesting thread, it's great stuff.

You're welcome, but i really should thank you for bringing all the insightful comments! I'm glad you've enjoyed this