dharmagrl dharmagrl

Another question for christian scolars

Another question for christian scolars

(actually, anyone can give their opinion here)

Do you believe that the bible is a complete document?  Do you think that the gospels and other books rejected by the Council of Nicea have any value?

What's your opinion about the Nag Hamadi and Dead Sea Scrolls? 

I would like to know how much creedence you give to these texts and the message held within.  Do you think that they're also divinely inspired?

I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested.  If I was going to 'bash' I'd do so blatantly.....

 

5,215 views 28 replies
Reply #26 Top
If God wanted the Scriptures to inerrant, He could make it so,


Which leads me to wonder why he would do such a thing. But, there are a lot of things that I see that make me wonder why he'd do soemthing like that!

I understand why Jews would consider them to be nutty, but I respect them.


Oh, i do too...but I can also see why Martha was perplexed by their stance!
Reply #27 Top
I dont have specific examples because its been a long time since I heard someone answer the same type of question you did. Issue wasnt the best choices of words. Maybe...events is better. In the Bible...Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Thats printed in various books in the bible itself. In one book that is not included in the Bible, it says that he was born in Nazareth or something. Not the same town, it maybe close, but it doesnt match what is said in the rest of the Bible for some reason.

Im going to paste an article I found on the net here...sorry for the size Dharma...but I think it fits fairly well. Its from a Christian perspective on the same topic:

"The whole question of lost books of the Bible hinges on what the Bible is. Now the Bible can only be two things. What is it that we mean when we use the word "Bible"? Well, a Bible is either God's supernatural Word -- God supernaturally oversees its production and its care. Or it 's a statement of beliefs of the leaders of Christianity. They say "this represents what we believe." Disregarding any supernatural element, it's based on consensus. Let's just say we're the only Christians in the world. We say we believe in these things, but we don't believe these other things so throw them out because they don't reflect what we believe. Any group has the right to determine what it is they believe.
Now, notice that there are two ways of looking at this: a supernatural or natural perspective. I would contend that there are no other ways of looking at this question; no other options. No matter who you are out there you either think of the Bible as being God's inspired Word (most of the conservative Christian world holds this view, in some form), or the Bible is merely the statement of beliefs of the early church, without any supernatural content. Pretty much the rest of the world looks at it this way.

Now, the question of the lost books of the Bible comes up. But my problem is: how is it possible that there can be any lost books of the Bible?

Is it possible that in the first sense of the word Bible that the books could be lost? Wait a minute, if God is supernaturally overseeing it, then God is supernaturally involved in seeing that His book gets written down and preserved. So we have God's supernatural protection if it has a supernatural quality to it. You may say that the supernatural element is bogus, but you can see that from this sense of the definition that it's not really possible to think that God could lose His own book. "But man wrote it...." Can you make your dog sit? Of course. If you a mere man can make your dog sit, can't an infinite God oversee the care of His Word? It doesn't matter if man or monkeys were responsible for taking care of it.

Maybe the Bible isn't supernatural, it's a statement of beliefs of the leaders of the church. Okay, if that's the case then who has the final word on which books belong in the Bible? The leaders of the early church. Therefore, by very definition any books that they cast into outer darkness are not part of the Bible. It's their decision to decide which books represent their beliefs. And if they say the Gospel of Thomas isn't our book and somebody else picks it up two thousand years later and say it's a lost book of the Bible, then it's fair to ask "In what sense is it a lost book of the Bible?" It might be a lost book of antiquity, a great archaeological find, a wonderful piece of literature, but a lost book of the Bible? No.

The Bible has to be either a supernatural book, or a non-supernatural book. If it's supernatural -- if God is responsible for its writing, it's transmission and its survival -- then God, being God, does the job right. God doesn't make mistakes, he doesn't forget things, he doesn't get confused about what is true and what is false, and He isn't absent-minded -- He doesn't lose his lessons.

If the Bible is not supernatural -- as many will contend, especially those who claim to have found lost books -- we have a different problem. By what standard do we claim these are bonafide lost books of the Bible? If, from a human perspective, the Bible is that collection of writings that reflect the beliefs of the leaders of early Christianity, then those writings they discard are not parts of the Bible by very definition. It's like writing a book of your personal beliefs from a stack of ideas you've collected over the years and then have someone rummage through your trash to find other beliefs you didn't include and then claim that these were your secret or lost beliefs. You say, "No, they're not my beliefs; that's why they're in the trash. If they were were really mine, they'd be in the book.

The irony is that many of the the "lost books" advocates make the point that these books they've rediscovered, books like the so-called Gospel of Thomas, were missing because the church fathers "suppressed" them, which is another way of saying the early Christians threw them out, trashed them. And the accusation is true. They did. Critics think this strengthens their case. It doesn't; it destroys it, because it proves that these books were simply not accepted by the leaders as representative of their beliefs. So therefore it can't be their Bible.

The Jesus Seminar people are taking a little different tack. They reject the idea that the Bible has supernatural origins. They suggest that since it's just man's opinion anyway, we should have a recall vote on the Bible and fix the defects. We should reconvene and reshuffle the deck, tossing some books out and including others to reflect what the church now believes about spiritual truth, which means "what the Jesus Seminar now believes about spiritual truth." They are not using the "lost books of the Bible" tack.

So regardless of your view of the Bible -- supernatural or natural -- there is no sense in which it makes any sense to talk of lost books of the Bible. Ergo it's impossible, rationally -- nothing to do with spiritual commitments at all -- that there can be anything like lost books of the Bible. The phrase just doesn't make any sense. "
Reply #28 Top
The Bible has to be either a supernatural book, or a non-supernatural book


That's somewhat black and white, and simplifies the issue. But I think the Bible is both, in that it describes supernatural events and principles, ("supernatural", here, referring to things 'beyond this world', or beyond the scope of science. For instance, the existence of the hereafter, and what might have existed before the world began). But at the same time, I believe the Bible is non-supernatural, because it was written 'in this world', by human hands, albeit inspired by a supernatural Mind.

If it's supernatural -- if God is responsible for its writing, it's transmission and its survival -- then God, being God, does the job right


The fact that the Bible is not perfect, (and there are definitely contradictions and errors in the Bible), does not mean that God made a mistake - even if God chose to be responsoble for the Bible's content. After all, from within the context of the bigger picture, it might actually be "perfect" for this world not to be perfect. It might simply be part of the plan. I believe that it's part of our spiritual journey to explore the Territory first hand - including this world and the spiritual realms (which can be tapped from within, via a heighthened spiritual awareness) - rather than simply be told what to do. Our Holy Scriptures are like maps, which attempt to describe the Territory and show us the way.

If holy scriptures are tainted with human emphasis, is it not possible that we've got some parts of it completetly wrong? That us humans have taken the ball and run in the wrong direction with it?


I completely agree with this Dharma. I think it's happened many times in our Holy Books. For example, is there an eternal lake of fire to which God sends people who don’t believe? If one choose to believe so, then is it a Christian lake of fire, where all non-Christians go, or is it a Muslim lake of fire, where all non-Muslims go?

I think we can decipher for ourselves which religious revelations are aligned with ‘Truth’ by aligning them with our own inner wisdom and with the compassionate capacity of our heart. We’ll probably come to different conclusions, of course, because we’re all at different stages of spiritual growth. But I think the key is to find inner peace with our own faith and with our own interpretations.

I have a very "East meets West" view of religion. I believe that the earth was created by a higher power and that we are all part of the natural life and death cycle. I believe that we all have a path of life which the higher power picks for us to make our souls stronger. I believe in reincarnation.

... I think that the higher powers are infinite.


I love that. I think that's brilliant, and describe a simple, but true, model of the world. It's what I believe too. I think the basic common ground that appears throughout all our Holy Scriptures is:

(1) God, or a Higher Force exists
(2) Life has a deeper purpose
(3) There’s a bigger picture, and all is not death and finality