Fetus, Death, Life

Contradictions all around

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031783329059&path=%21news&s=1063629688048
from JoeUser Forums

I leave this to your own imagination.  Since some of the more vulagar are confined to their own playpen, I hope that we can get some insight here.

Specifically, this is part 2 of Dharma's recent article.  21 weeks and counting. Should we keep the women who is clearly brain dead alive for a mass of protoplasm?

Or should we just pull the plug and let all the tissue die.

Interesting choice. What do you say?

2,579 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Or should we just pull the plug and let all the tissue die.

never plug it in in the first place....
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
I say it's a totally banal and boring choice.

The man wants to see his child born, and he's willing to assert that this is in keeping with his wife's desires. No other close family members are opposing him, and the doctors say it can be done. Assuming he's able to afford the costs, why not?

What do you say, Dr. Guy? An arbitrary mass of protoplasm, or a human life worth saving?

Clearly, the husband and the doctors think it's a human life worth saving. What is your justification for calling it a mass of protoplasm? Is it to make the pro-life answer to your question seem less reasonable, or do you sincerely believe that humanity is a subjective condidtion?

Anyway, if it is a subjective condition, contingent only on the choice of the parents, how is your question at all interesting? The one parent capable of deciding on the humanity of the fetus has already so decided, with the support of his medical advisors.

It's not like there's anything controversial going on here, even by the standards of the pro-abortionists and the Schiavo-killers.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

never plug it in in the first place....

Then the next MLK, or Gandi may not be born.  Maybe Winston Churchill should not have been born given his mother?

You want Neville Chamberlain to determine your fate, for surely he would have if not for WC.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

Clearly, the husband and the doctors think it's a human life worth saving. What is your justification for calling it a mass of protoplasm? Is it to make the pro-life answer to your question seem less reasonable, or do you sincerely believe that humanity is a subjective condidtion?

Anyway, if it is a subjective condition, contingent only on the choice of the parents, how is your question at all interesting? The one parent capable of deciding on the humanity of the fetus has already so decided, with the support of his medical advisors.

Thanks for the ripost!

And yes there is.  For if a 'fetus' is not human, then the decision to keep her alive is clearly immoral!  But if the baby is a real human being, then the decision is clearly to preserve life!

It is not subjective as this is an objective decision and it strikes at the heart of both PBA and abortion in general.

This man, in his own small way, is saying no to death, and yes to life.  I pray that this baby survives so that he can have a rememberance of his wife.  And her desire to bring forth her legacy.  But I know others will just poo poo it as so much wasted energy for a useless life.

That is my point!  You made if for me. on the Right side.

What is the difference between this baby, and the so called stem cells from fetuses?  Not a damn thing except for gestation. Both are human.

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Then the next MLK, or Gandi may not be born. Maybe Winston Churchill should not have been born given his mother?"

On the other hand, maybe we'd be saving the world from the next Hitler, Manson, or Jones.

Make no mistake, Guy the pro-life position is not founded on some rose-coloered hypothetical lifeboat ethics BS. The pro-life position isn't based on what the fetus might become later. It's based on what the fetus is right now: a human life.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

u win

No my friend, we win.

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

On the other hand, maybe we'd be saving the world from the next Hitler, Manson, or Jones.

Make no mistake, Guy the pro-life position is not founded on some rose-coloered hypothetical lifeboat ethics BS. The pro-life position isn't based on what the fetus might become later. It's based on what the fetus is right now: a human life.

You preach to the choir!

Who are we to decide?  Another Beethoven?  Or another hitler?

If we decide, we play god. And we are ill equipped to do so.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sorry, Guy. I guess I got confused.

Where do you stand, on this issue, and the issue of fetal stem cell research?

Most of the conservatives I know also oppose fetal stem cell research, for the same reasons. Your article's subtitle says "Contradictions all around", but all I can find in this article and its implications is a remarkable consistency.

Point of logic: even if the fetus is not human, it doesn't follow that keeping the mother's body alive is necessarily immoral.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
The pro-life position isn't based on what the fetus might become later. It's based on what the fetus is right now: a human life.


I concur.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

Point of logic: even if the fetus is not human, it doesn't follow that keeping the mother's body alive is necessarily immoral.

Guess you need to read more of my stuff.  And the above is illogical.  for if the fetus is just a mass of cells, then keeping the body alive is immoral.  It serves no purpose.

BUT!  if that mass of cells may live, then is it not a human now?  just the division of being inside (vs outside) the human the differentiation?  And if that is the case, then shove a kid back up the uterus and kill it is legal.

The slippery slope.

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

concur.

IN isolation that is a great statement!  I should have, no will give him an insightful for that one!

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sorry, Guy. I'm still having trouble following your train of thought.

If the fetus is a mass of cells that may one day become a human being, then keeping the mother's body alive serves a very clear and obvious purpose: allowing the mass of cells to become a human being. This is the declared purpose of the husband/father, and the purpose to which the medical staff has dedicated itself. There's plenty of purpose here; in fact, the entire story is about purpose.

If you were convinced that there was no hope of survival for the fetus, then sure, I'd agree that it was in some sense immoral to waste resources keeping the mother alive. But since even you seem to agree that the fetus could become a human being some day (if it isn't already), it seems to me that your Purpose Requirement has been fully met. Anyway, from a logical standpoint, I'm still correct: the non-humanity of the fetus doesn't necessarily mean it's immoral to keep the mother alive. By your own logic, only a lack of purpose would lead to imorality in this scenario.

My question for you is this: Where do you stand on this? Do you believe the fetus is currently human, or not? You claim to be a doctor: Given what you know about the case, what would you recommend to a husband and father in this situation?
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: stutefish

Stute.  Think sarcasm.

No, I am not a medical doctor.

 

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
To which of your statements should I apply the sarcasm, Guy?
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

To which of your statements should I apply the sarcasm, Guy?

try the article.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
AAAAAH.

It all makes sense, now.

Thanks, Guy!
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

AAAAAH.

It all makes sense, now.

Thanks, Guy!

You are a wise man.

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
just the division of being inside (vs outside) the human the differentiation? And if that is the case, then shove a kid back up the uterus and kill it is legal.


And this was my original point. A zygote (mass of cells) with human DNA is still human, right?

I find it abhorrent that we have legislated some things to the Nth degree...even this. A couple of inches between murder and abortion. How sickening.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I heard the update to this story, complete with interview of the father in the case, tonite on the local news. It's a sad story indeed. The mother's cancer was missed completely until it was too late and the cancer had attacked the poor woman's brain cells. Had the father not known basic CPR, the mother would have been completely dead, rather than brain dead as things stand.

There's is still no guarantee that even with several hundred thousand dollars of life support for the mothers brain dead body that the cancer won't spread through the woman's system and attack the baby, and there's also no guarantee that the baby will make it, no matter how many weeks the woman is kept on life support. The baby could be born normally, have some horrible birth defects, or suffer from the common maladies that affect "premies."

I hope for the best for the family. The mother is leaving behind a young child already, and even if the current fetus is born normally, it will never know it's mother. Not a good story no matter what (which is part of why I tossed up a few comments in a blog article, and asked for comments there also). Dr. Guy noted the topic before I did, and his article includes a few insightful comments and interesting follow-ups. (And big nod to Dharma also!)
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
And this was my original point. A zygote (mass of cells) with human DNA is still human, right?


Yes. Given this came on top of the Schiavo Autopsy, I was just in a very sarcastic mood. While I try not to push my views here (and fail in that endeavor miserably) about abortion, it still is a very deep emotional thing to me.

That scar will probably never heal.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
20 by terpfan1980
Thursday, June 16, 2005


Thanks for the update, and I pray the father is sucessful. My sarcasm notwithstanding.

You handled it well. I just got pissed and did a very sarcastic piece. I am following yours and hope others comment as well.