End Anonymous CPS Reporting!

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, I think being able to anonymously report is a good thing. I don't think thing the anonymous report should stand on it's own though. It should cause the CPS to go and see if there is anything bad going on and act appropriatly. With the whole innocent until proven guilty thing, anonymous calls are not proof and should not be used as such. If I call the police and anonymously report that my neighbor is an axemurderer and say there are a dozen bodies in the basement, I would certainly hope the police go investigate. But if they find nothing, they should politely appoligize to the neighbor and come looking for me instead. I would want the same from CPS. At least, in a more perfect world...

I agree with Danny. In some instances, it may be dangerous for the accuser to know who reported suspected abuse.

Teachers, child care providers, and others who have daily contact with a child are able to notice things like changes in a child's behavior (irrational fear, flinching when approached, etc.) or recurrent strange bruises or cuts. Children may also make comments that raise suspicion.

It's their responsibility to report such things when they suspect child abuse.

Ideally, the person reporting it would make a detailed log of the comments, wounds, behaviors, etc. that caused suspicion so that possible instances of abuse could be well-documented and not just "it seems like" or "I think..."

CPS has a responsibility to investigate the reports, and are (or should be) well-trained in how to professionally and least invasively look for confirmation of abuse (or lack thereof).

Whether suspicions of abuse are confirmed or refuted, the individual who made the report should not be endangered or have their authority or relationship with the child compromised.

If someone has made a report out of spite or for some reason besides genuine concern, this should become apparent in the investigation process.

workers ROUTINELY violate and ignore the law in information gathering. Miranda rights do not apply, constitutional protections against search and seizure do not apply, and the standard of "innocent until proven guilty" does not pretend to apply.

To me, THIS seems to be the problem, not anonymous reporting.

Hate to pile on, but I have to agree with Danny and Texas on this one.

All too often overworked, underpaid, and overwrought social workers all too often use "anonymous reports" as "evidence". Worse yet, judges (in an apparent show of trust and professional courtesy) all too often allow the anonymous report to be sufficient evidence to sign court orders.

Think about it. As a paramedic (along with all membes of the health care community) I was required by law to report suspected abuse or neglect. The adults I reported knew I'd been in their homes, they knew where I worked. If they knew it was one of us that reported them, we would be sitting ducks.

That being said, I do think that my (or anyone else's) "report" merely should put the wheels of investigation in motion, not be the end all be all of the case.

 

But if they find nothing, they should politely appoligize to the neighbor and come looking for me instead. I would want the same from CPS.

While I appreciate your comments, have any of you been the victim of bullies who abuse the CPS anonymous reporting system? While it may look god at the surface, nobody should have to live with the fear that a stereo turned way too loud could encourage a malicious neighbor to fabricate stories to have their children taken away. What you don't understand is that CPS removal is often based on subjective criteria, basically the OPINION of the caseworker, and that all too often if the caseworker finds no evidence, they will remove the children, insisting that they are "erring on the side of the child". As one who has been the victim of CPS harassment, and has known several others in the same boat, I have to disagree with the three of YOU. In the case of an ax murderer, if a neighbor is witness to the activities, they will have to testify because the ax murderer has the right to face their accuser. That right is a fundamental right of our judicial system and is only rarely waived, such as in the case of abused minors testifying directly against their abusers.

That being said, I do think that my (or anyone else's) "report" merely should put the wheels of investigation in motion, not be the end all be all of the case.

But it doesn't, and won't. If you cannot afford an attorney, all it takes is two or three malicious neighbors and your children are gone for a minimum of three weeks and possibly forever.

When a system is THIS broken, you don't reform it. You eradicate it. I am tired of living in fear and know many others who are just as tired of it.

Here is a story in today's paper that is a perfect example of just how CPS does their job.

TAMPA - The questions from the social worker were simple enough.

``Do you have a home? Do you have income?''

So were the answers from a shy, 22-year-old mother.

``No, not here,'' she said. ``No, I am a visitor.''

Those responses to a Florida Department of Children & Families social worker and a possible language barrier triggered a chain of events that led to the state taking custody of the newborn last week.

Link

You say anonymous reporting is bad, and I can respect your opinion on that, even if I disagree. I havn't had to deal with CPS at any point in my life, and you say you have which should give you a better perspective on this matter then I have. It sounds to me like CPS is fundementally flawed, either in design or function. And those flaws are the problem, not the anonymous reporting. Removing the reporting might be a quick fix, but it certainly sounds like the whole organization needs to be rebuilt/replaced. I think we both (and I'd go so far as to say Texas and Ted as well, not sure on Mason) agree on CPS being a broken organization, and in need of rebuilding/replacing. But where we disagree is on anonymous reporting. From my perspective, in the examples you have given the problem is not the reporting. The problem is how the CPS act once they receive the report. Regardless of all that, I do applaud you for bringing this issue to peoples attention, keep up the good work.

Removing the reporting might be a quick fix, but it certainly sounds like the whole organization needs to be rebuilt/replaced.

No, it needs to be eliminated entirely. TRAINED LAW ENFORCEMENT personnel should conduct investigations into abuse or neglect.

What's sad, though, is that all three of you concur that the sixth amendment to the Constitution "goes too far". I truly hope none of you has your constitutional rights violated; I suspect you'd feel QUITE differently.

my late mother was the first head of child protective services for a county in colorado... while i was growing up, i would be "treated" to dinner table conversation about her day... i can honestly say that some of the stories were among the most horrific i have ever heard, ranking right up there with the worst the media has ever reported... she would constantly agonize over how to do the right thing by the child and the parents... she never had an easy day... sometimes, in giving the parents the benefit of the doubt, she would find out later, sometimes as a result of disastrous consequences, that she had been thoroughly manipulated and conned by people who took the definition of sleazeball to an entirely new level... once and only once, thank goodness, a child in her case load ended up dying from a severe beating after she agreed with the court to return custody to the parents... it was undoubtedly the most devastating experience of her professional and personal life... an experience that profoundly affected me was the murder of a woman child protection case worker in her home who was a friend of my mother and our family... it was apparently a random attack, motivated by robbery... she was watching tv, answered the door, and, evidently because she resisted, was stabbed 64 times in the chest and another 25 times in the back... that vision haunted me for months... no one that i've ever met then or now feels good or wants to see children removed from their parents... no one wants to see them die either... anonymous reporting has many flaws to be sure and, having been caught up in it myself, i can't say as i am happy with the idea... i do know, however, that i could not, no matter what, stand by while a child was being hurt, anonymously or otherwise...

I have to agree with Gideon. The CPS system runs counter to every important ideal we have regarding governmental power. People are guilty until proven innocent. They do NOT have the right to face their accusers. They do NOT have the right to be judged by a jury of their peers.

The fact is CHILD ABUSE IS A CRIME. If someone has abused or neglected a child enough to be removed, it should be a law enforcement matter, and the accused should have all the benefits of due process before they are prosecuted for their CRIME. Instead we victimize the innocent and simply remove kids from people who really should be jailed.

All we have done with CPS is make a second legal system that functions above the law, and with no oversight, victimizing whoever they will based on pathetically subjective standards.

IMHO, it is time for CPS to go completely, and put the investigation of crimes back where it belongs, in the justice system where the accused has rights.

i do know, however, that i could not, no matter what, stand by while a child was being hurt, anonymously or otherwise...

Prof,

Precisely. If you knew abuse was happening, you wouldn't insist on an unconstitutional shield of anonymity to protect you. I don't think anyone of principle truly would.

What I found interesting was that the example of an axe murderer was used in an earlier post. Are any of the proponents for anonymous reporting aware that if a warrant is obtained or evidence is gathered on an axe murderer based solely on an anonymous source, that axe murderer will most likely walk on appeal due to the unconstitutionality of not being able to face their accuser? For this reason, as LW mentioned, they need a hell of a lot more than your word as an anonymous source to proceed with a warrant.

IMHO, it is time for CPS to go completely, and put the investigation of crimes back where it belongs, in the justice system where the accused has rights.

Exactly, Baker. TRAINED LAW ENFORCEMENT should investigate, and take appropriate actions, and parents should be CONVICTED in a court of law using the procedure of justice that is established as a standard in this country to obtain the conviction.

I think there was a communication gap here, and I think you covered it in your response. Thanks.

LOL, I think I just said the same thing you did.

I think what people don't understand is that their ideals are really allowing abusers to walk the streets. Law enforcement can't deal with the abusers without witnesses.

When someone abuses or neglects a child, the usual response in the US is to take the kids and leave it at that. What if they have more kids? What if they start babysitting the neighbor's kids?

If someone is really hurting kids, why would anyone be afraid to stop them? You don't want to hurt their feelings? My God, they should be in jail, not having their feelings looked after.

How is anonymous reporting to CPS any different than tip lines? Or do you consider those tip lines unconstituional as well? I've never really considered it in such light, so I'm interested to learn your thoughts.

How is anonymous reporting to CPS any different than tip lines? Or do you consider those tip lines unconstituional as well? I've never really considered it in such light, so I'm interested to learn your thoughts.

Shades,

Simple. Information gained from tip lines is not admissible as evidence, unless the caller reveals their name and is available for questioning. This isn't the case for CPS. Case workers frequently enter homes without warrants, and base their actions on anonymous tips (see the Texas Cancer Patient Case; evidence was gained off an anonymous tip). In addition, couples in difficult divorces routinely use anonymous tip lines to harass the other parent; a pattern of CPS visits can, and often does, sway a judge to decide against the parent who has been repeatedly reported, no matter how baseless the accusations may be.

I still find it appalling that a parent accused of child abuse or neglect, no matter how wrongfully (an estimated 82% of child removals are done in cases where there is very little hard evidence, and only an appallingly small 3% of parents who have their children removed are ever convicted of criminal wrongdoing...those facts should indicate a system desperately in need of change).

And again, it does go back to the Constitution. We may not like, for instance, that the KKK member has free speech. We similarly may not like that an ACCUSED (remember, accusation is NOT the same as Conviction) child abuser has legal rights. But the fact remains that the Constitution was written for the protection of the rights of ALL American citizens (in a related blog, I have detailed four amendments that I have personally seen CPS violate; the right to a fair, speedy and public trial is one of the most egregious).

Once again, I wouldn't oppose replacing anonymous reporting with a "shield law" in which authorities KNOW the name of the accuser but aren't required to reveal it unless a) the information given is used to obtain a warrant; the information given is used as evidence against the defendant in court; or c) the information given is needed to establish a pattern of harassment against an individual or individuals in other court action. But anonymous reporting, like illegal search and seizure, like child removals without due process, is a practice that needs to be done away with for the benefit of the system AND the individuals.

For the sake of argument, though, let's say the call was placed in a genuinely abusive situation and the parents have been able to afford an attorney to roadblock a genuine investigation. Shouldn't the authorities have tools to gain access to the tipster for further questioning and/or obtaining affidavits to prosecute this parent? Removing the anonymous reporting law in this way helps the children as much as the accused. And protecting the children once was arguably the aim of CPS.

#12 by shadesofgrey Monday, June 13, 2005 How is anonymous reporting to CPS any different than tip lines? Or do you consider those tip lines unconstituional as well? I've never really considered it in such light, so I'm interested to learn your thoughts.

Can you say "innocent until PROVEN guility"?

One of the basic foundations of American justice is the right of the accused to face their accuser. CPS takes control of people's lives with no trial, no jury, no independant judgement.

There are many good people in CPS, and many people who aren't. Just because good people do good things with power doesn't mean that said power is right in terms of the Constitution. The only difference between CPS and socialist baby-snatchers is good intentions, and I refuse to rely on the existance of such.

Can you say "innocent until PROVEN guility"?

Can you say, "way to make a jerky comment for no apparent reason"? Do you not know how to engage in a polite conversation? I asked a simple question to learn more information about looking at something from an angle that I had not previously considered. Unlike you, I enjoy the opportunity to broaden my horizons--you clearly know everything. I'm eagerly looking forward to the day that we can employ the ignore feature.

Simple. Information gained from tip lines is not admissible as evidence

Thanks for taking the time to explain that Gideon. I think I am inclined to agree with TW, that it is not so much the anonymous reporting that is the problem, but rather what the authorities are doing with that tip. I firmly believe that CPS has the ability to investigate tips without violating anyone's constitutional rights--though I don't doubt you when you say that they haven't been held to those standards.

As for the ability to face your accuser--I believe that child abuse, like domestic assault, your accuser is technically the state. Therefore, you face the prosecution in the courtroom and that falls, legally, within the constitution. I could be wrong about this holding over in child abuse cases, but I do know that in domestic violence cases the survivor (I so hate the word victim) can not "drop" the charges--the charges are filed by the state and the survivor has no say in whether or not the state proceeds with the case. Of course, all of this is null and void if you are never afforded the right to a trial.

I fear that eliminating the anonymous line may put some children in danger. There is definitely a mentality out there that says that it is easier and safer to keep your mouth shut than to put your neck on the line. Granted, it's a sad state of affairs when you are dealing with children, but it does happen.

I've found your series on CPS to be very interesting. I've never been on the other side, but I have been charged with contacting CPS several times when I was a child care provider (the state I worked in required us, by law, to report any suspicions immediately). I would have been more than willing to provide my name, but I was never asked for it.

Frankly, shadesofgrey, I don't think you have much perspective on the system. In Kentucky the CPS can get a tip, go interview your child with no warning or permission IN SCHOOL, and take the child into custody without you knowing ANYTHING about it.

Then your child is held indefinately until they decide whether to give it back or not. You can't dispute this, because it was done to people who live near me. The tip ended up being totally bogus, and the child was returned a the next day.

What was that night like for the parents and the child? The parents went to school to pick up their child and found it had been taken. The child has been harmed, the parents have been harmed. REALLY harmed, based upon anonymous 'tips' from what ended up being a disgruntled co-worker. The child was snatched by the state just as if it were snatched by a kidnapper.

Kids die in the care of CPS. Kids are abused in the care of the CPS. The practice needs to be completely dissolved everywhere, and the justice system should return to handling crimes against children.

Frankly, shadesofgrey, I don't think you have much perspective on the system

Frankly Bakerstreet, I never implied I did--hence my questions. Again, in your example, I don't see that the tip is the problem, but rather what CPS does with that tip. Please notice in my last response that I don't doubt anything that has been stated--I just don't think that completely scrapping the program is the best response.

What exactly do you propose they do with a tip, then? If you think there's a fair way to do it, what's your take?

What exactly do you propose they do with a tip, then? If you think there's a fair way to do it, what's your take?

I believe that based on the tip, they can investigate, like they do any crime. Obviously they will need to be very careful in doing so, but they can interview teachers, neighbors, and other children (with their parents' permission) in order to gather evidence--that is how the criminal justice system works.

For example, if I see a guy stab someone, I can call 911 and tell them about it without giving my name. They go to the scene and interview other people nearby and look for clues. Child abuse cases should be handled in a similar manner. I have a student come to class with what appears to be cigarette burns on their body, I call CPS. They then begin collecting evidence through legal means--talking to teachers, school bus drivers, neighbors, doing whatever they can do, within the law, to secure a court-sanctioned removal.

I do not doubt that it is a very difficult balance to protect the child and the family at the same time--I just believe that the balancing act can be successfully achieved (though I have no doubt that it would be difficult).

I don't disagree that the system needs serious re-vamping.

No, in the real system the investigation comes before the trial, and the investigation comes to NO CONCLUSION about your guilt or innocence. They only decide if there is enough evidence to take you to court to be tried.

In terms of CPS the investigation IS the trial, and often the punishment for the guilty and innocent. Once the child has been removed, or given the third degree, the damage is done. McCarthy-esqe "investigators" talking to your neighbors and friends often paints you an abuser whether you are or not.

They SURE AS HELL don't go back and tell the people they interviewed that it was baseless.


In the legitimate justice system, all those interviews would eventually lead to people having to appear in court and giving testamony to what they witnessed. CPS has the authority to victimize people based on hearsay, and that is unconstitutional and wrong.

They use McCarthy era justice, and need to be shut down permanenty in favor of the real justice system. We don't need a socialist thug squad hanging over our kids heads like the sword of Damocles.