Face it, Folks...Religion and Education are Linked!

from JoeUser Forums

There's a push lately to remove all religious instruction from the public schools. Not only would it be a bad idea, it would require historical revisionism of monumental proportions.

For, you see, states are rightly required by their state education laws to teach state history. And in many states you cannot do that without discussing religion. A discussion of Utah history without the mention of Mormons is absolutely impossible; they were the ones who first settled the state! Likewise, most New England states originated under RELIGIOUS CHARTERS with their European sovereign states; vestiges of this heritage can be found in their state names (Pennsylvania, for instance), and in the names oftheir cities and counties.

But, going further, how do we begin to explore the civil rights movement without dissecting the teachings of a CHRISTIAN activist in Dr. Martin Luther King Jr? Or the Civil War without the contributions of the Quakers in operating the Unerground Railroad?

An entire era (the crusades) would go under the knife of political correctness, as would entire nations and empires through history (the Holy Roman Empire, anyone?). And it's not just Christianity that would feel the sting of excluding religion from history. Should we revisit the Salem Witch trials and the fact that even the legitimate practitioners of witchcraft in New England at the time should still have had rights? Or how about the Moorish influence in Spain that arguably precipitated the Crusades? The entire nation of Tibet would be gone in a flash of inoffensiveness, and many works of art would be lost to us entirely, as they were frequently inspired by, or commissioned by, the church.

If you truly feel that Christianity is an offensive evil, you won't fight it by suppressing it. You can only challenge it by allowing it on an open playing field, and dissecting its arguments, if you can.

Although I've still yet to find someone who can credibly meet THAT challenge. Which is why they focus instead on suppression.

4,859 views 38 replies
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
No one is saying that religion cannot be mentioned in schools. You're right. There's a ton of history that is interwined with religion. All anyone, including myself is advocating is that the teaching of a specific moral value is not relevant to a specific religion any more than teaching a kid how to swim is a faith in god. Teaching faith in god does not belong in public schools. It does not belong in government institutions. Morality and religion are not interdependent. Let's just stick to the Constitution, why don't we, and keep church and state separate. Otherwise, you may as well move to Iran, because that's a prime example of what can happen when the two get mixed together.
Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

There is a big difference between teach ing religion, and teaching about religion.  The former is contrary to the constitution.  The latter is necessary for an understanding of not only the History of the US, but of Civilization in general.

Unfortunately, the zealots do not understand that, so that the mere mention of anything christian is bastardized into an assault on the separation of Church and state.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Uhm, I think you're mixing things up. As Dr.Guy said: There's a difference between teaching religion and about religion.
To put it short, my opinion is:
Teach about holy roman empire, crusades, Luther, Tibet, whatever: Of cause! Historical facts, everybody should learn them.
But teach people: Our god (be it the Christian god, Allah, Buddha, whatever) is the right one and you have to worship him and if you disagree, you're in trouble: No.

I think that's what must people mean when they say that religion and education need to be seperated.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

Teach about holy roman empire, crusades, Luther, Tibet, whatever: Of cause! Historical facts, everybody should learn them.


And just how in the hell do you propose to teach those subjects "without" teaching about the religon behind them?


But teach people: Our god (be it the Christian god, Allah, Buddha, whatever) is the right one and you have to worship him and if you disagree, you're in trouble: No


They do NOT now, nor have they EVER taught this in school.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
There is a big difference between teach ing religion, and teaching about religion.


That's EXACTLY right. As long as my kids are being taught ABOUT religion, about the different faiths and philosophies and what they believe, then I'm cool with that. However, telling my child that only one faith is the right one; that all the others are false and worthless....I'm not cool with that. Not at all....that has no place in the classroom of a public school.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Okay, I was a bit lazy and tried to keep it short, that led to some misunderstandings.

And just how in the hell do you propose to teach those subjects "without" teaching about the religon behind them?

You got me wrong - should have phrased it clearer, sorry. Of cause they should be taught about those religions!
Exactly what dharmagrl said. Teaching everybody the basics about the major religions is very important, in my opinion. It's vital to have this knowledge to understand what is currently going on in the world, obviously.

They do NOT now, nor have they EVER taught this in school.

Please note that I never claimed they did.
Think some further clarification is needed - I wasn't talking about the US or any other specific country, it was just meant as a general statement about where I would draw the line - what I think is okay and what isn't.

I'm from germany and never went to a US school, so I really can't and won't judge the american school system. I can only talk about the german system.
We've got religion as a subject in school (divided into catholic and protestant classes, which is pretty silly imho) but when you're old enough or your parents agree, you don't have to take the lessons. I think it is all in all a fair way to handle it. Teaching about the different religions is covered in other subjects (history etc.), religion as a subject is really religious education. If it would be a subject you must take, I would think of it as sick. Because you can't change someone to believe, and forcing someone to take part in religious education when he doesn't share the believe only teaches people to lie and pretend. Religion as a subject at school has to be voluntary. Teaching about different religions from a neutral point of view has to be standard and part of every education.

However - and that's what I meant by the second statment that you quoted - in some conservative areas, you get into trouble when you leave the religion class. Of cause not officially, but some teachers will mob you and make live hard for you in other subjects. Not all christian teachers are like this, of cause, but some have this quite twisted version of christianity. :-/ This kind of mobbing can be pretty damaging to children, and it's hard to do something against it, for it's pretty hard to prove.
So, the 'you-should-believe-this-or-you're-in-trouble'-way of teaching religion is by no means official policy, but some teachers practise it that way.
As I said, I haven't been to a US school, but I guess the problem isn't limited to germany.
Of cause, the other way round - discriminating children for being christians - is equally unacceptable.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Yellow Sign                                                    Posted: Friday, June 03, 2005

Yellow sign, I saw your point A and C in th efirst post, and just assumed you had glided over point B.  Your second one did a very good job of explaining point B and also from whence you gained your perspective.  I went to school in Germany for 2 years, but it was an American Military one (about as atheistic as they come I would guess).

Thanks for giving us some background on another country's education system.  It seems in the regard of teaching of religion, Germany is a lot more rational than America is, even if the division between Protestant and Catholicism is splitting hairs (I gather from your post).

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
even if the division between Protestant and Catholicism is splitting hairs (I gather from your post).

Totally. I am from a catholic familiy, so before I was old enough to leave it, I had catholic religion as a subject. And more than once, when I came into the room where the protestants had had their class, I'd see exactly the same stuff written on the blackboard...
Anyway, sorry for getting a bit of-topic.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
However, telling my child that only one faith is the right one; that all the others are false and worthless....I'm not cool with that. Not at all....that has no place in the classroom of a public school.


But see, only the most zealous of any faith would teach religion in that manner. Most people just want to teach religion in its proper context, and they're facing increasing battles to do so.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

Totally. I am from a catholic familiy, so before I was old enough to leave it, I had catholic religion as a subject. And more than once, when I came into the room where the protestants had had their class, I'd see exactly the same stuff written on the blackboard...

Interesting side note.  I did go to a Catholic University.  And the history of Early Christianity was taught by a Methodist minister.  Even tho it was under the religion course heading (we had to take 12 credits of it), history is history, at least that is what the Catholic Univeristy thought, and I found the course to be more historical (albeit from a relgious perspective) than indoctrinational.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
To put it short, my opinion is:
Teach about holy roman empire, crusades, Luther, Tibet, whatever: Of cause! Historical facts, everybody should learn them.
But teach people: Our god (be it the Christian god, Allah, Buddha, whatever) is the right one and you have to worship him and if you disagree, you're in trouble: No.


Exactly!
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
A kid reading a Bible in recess is suspended. Students acting out scenes in the koran is encouraged.

Interesting.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
A kid reading a Bible in recess is suspended. Students acting out scenes in the koran is encouraged.


And what fucked up school is this?
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

A kid reading a Bible in recess is suspended.

Please show me one instance of a child reading the bible at recess being suspended (from a credible news source). My sources tell me that not only is a child reading the bible at recess allowed, but even if the CHILD were evangelizing, it would not/could not be disallowed. The Supreme Court has CONSISTENTLY upheld the rights of prayer/study groups as long as they are led by the students, participation is not mandatory, and other religious groups are given equal access. While a few overzealous administrators have tried to squash student led groups such as these, they are rebuffed as soon as a legal challenge is issued.

One of the problems many Christians have in this country is that they do not press their rights when their rights are infringed upon...and because they fail to challenge these rulings, administrators have gotten away with continuing acts that even the Supreme Court would decree to be blatantly unConstitutional.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top


#15 by latour999
Friday, June 03, 2005





A kid reading a Bible in recess is suspended. Students acting out scenes in the koran is encouraged.


And what fucked up school is this?



Knox County School District in Tennesee, Karns Elementary School

Link
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
(from a credible news source).


attention drmiler. you seem to have overlooked one of the requirements. worldweeklynewsdotnet don't qualify except on those rare occasions when they spin their opinions so wildly they unintentionally manage to reach a full 180 degrees.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Unfortunately, the zealots do not understand that, so that the mere mention of anything christian is bastardized into an assault on the separation of Church and state


even more unfortunately, you appear to believe your own propaganda.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I tend to differ a bit. I don't think there is ever any reason for moral instruction in schools, whatsoever.

You don't have to address right and wrong when teaching facts. If a biology teacher teaches the findings of scientists that back up natural selection, there's no reason to ever deal with the 'truth' of it. Only the scientist, the theory, the findings. The 'truth' of it never enter into it.

The same with history. We can learn about any historical event without judging whether or not the 'right' thing happened. Whether it be slavery, or civil rights, or the crusades, whatever. You put forth the facts, and let the moral background of the child decide.

This is important, because when the moral values of the student's family and the teacher conflict, the teacher has no right to overcome those values. If a family has conservative beliefs, their beliefs aren't harmed by a student knowing the facts of M.L. King Jr's life. If, however, the teacher goes further and, say, makes the point that still today civil rights abuses are the norm because gay people can't marry, they've gone a step too far.

Religion is about personal values and self-expression. Teaching is about fact, NOT about subjective values and self-expression. The rights to teach that sort of thing belongs to the parents of the child.

I know of many people who think we should have moral intruction in schools. The question I always ask them is:

"What happens next year when they have a Muslim or Hindu teacher?"

They usually stare back at me as if it were an impossibility, but it isn't. Even more so, they are VERY likely to have an atheist teacher who is in no way barred from demeaning their religion in favor of secular "truth".

For that reason, NO ONE should be doing it. I can't be a hypocrite. Sorry, but if a Mosque set up in the parking lot of my kid's school and handed out pamphlets and hotdogs I would be pissed. For that reason, I don't want a Baptist hotdog stand opening the door for them.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sorry, that was long. My point in a nutshell is if we allow our accepted values to be taught, we open the door for others to teach contrary to our beliefs.

To me if a PETA-inspired teacher starts teaching about cruelty in meat processing plants, that is JUST as out-of-line as a Baptist teaching the 'truth' of creationism. I don't want a Muslim health teacher being paid to teach my kid that pork is unclean, so I don't believe someone aligned with me should open the door for it by teaching that my morals are logical or superior.

I don't want a biology teacher demeaning my beliefs while teaching evolution, so I don't think creationists should invite them to do so. These are just a few examples among many.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

kingbee,

Thanks for the link. I assure you, though, that the school will lose this case.

Baker,

You make some excellent points. In fact, that's why I question whether capable parents should "farm out" their childrens' education to institutional schools.

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
#18 by kingbee
Saturday, June 04, 2005





(from a credible news source).


attention drmiler. you seem to have overlooked one of the requirements. worldweeklynewsdotnet don't qualify except on those rare occasions when they spin their opinions so wildly they unintentionally manage to reach a full 180 degrees


ATTENTION KINGBEE: Can you show me WHERE latour said credible source? Of course you CAN'T because Gideon is the one that said that. Next time pay attention.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
kingbee,
Thanks for the link. I assure you, though, that the school will lose this case


awww man...puhleeeze don't blame me for that link.