Terry has died

The end of the ordeal

The Terry Schiavo cas has certainly stirred up many emotional reactions in people. I know that I was deeply troubled by what has happened.  Even though I consider myself militantly pro-choice on issues such as abortion and believe that Assisted Suicide should be the law of the land, these things still have one thing in common - individual choice.

Terry Schiavo has been severely mentally disabled for over a decade. How disabled she is is a matter of debate. The law states that if a person is considered to be in a permanent vegetative state that they may be taken off of life support (including feeding tubes) IF it was the will of that person.

The courts ruled that two things were true:

A) That Terry was in a persistent vegatative state.

B) That she would want to be taken off of support.

That's where the controvery comes in.  To me, the evidence to support she was a vegetable was poor, at best. Anyone who has ever worked in a group home for the mentally retarded can tell you that there's a lot of people who appear much like how Terry does in the videos that were released.  In addition, there was no written evidence that Terry would want to be taken off of support. We have only the word of her husband that she would want that.

I somehow doubt that most people would want to be starved to death over a two-week period. It will be interesting if any photos of Terry's last days get leaked out onto the net so that people can see just what happens to the body from such a trauma.

The courts, correctly IMO, ruled that the various courts were following the law.  The problem, and I have no idea whose fault it is, is that there was little effort to actually determine the two key points.  When people talk about how all the courts already heard the arguments, they are only hearing whether the courts were right to rule in they did provided that A and B were true. 

What many of the protesters argued was that points A and B were not anywhere near certain enough to justify starving this young woman to death.  I don't see how any reasonable person could argue that points A and B were proven.

The woman never had an MRI, for example.  The video footage seen by millions was never seen in a court room.  The primary witness claiming Terry would have wanted to be taken off a feed tube had long since moved on and had two children with another woman. His testimony with regarding her will was iffy at best.

So what are the lingering consequences? Millions of people around the world just witnessed the United States intentionally starving to death one of its citizens based on pretty shakey evidence.  The issue has certainly energized millions of conservatives -- including pro-abortion rights ones such as myself.  The left comes across as looking hypocritical and ghoulish (in talking to friends and neighbors, the joke "They should have said she was a member of Al Qaeda, then the liberals would have protested to keep her alive!). 

For better or worse, at least this whole ordeal will slowly fade -- I hope.

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9,393 views 33 replies
Reply #1 Top
Stick to skinning, and leave the doctors to the decisions about who is or isn't in a "vegatative state." Unless you have an MD I don't know about.
Reply #2 Top
The court watched the full 4-hour video, including the parts that millions of people saw. Terry's husband was corroborated by a few other people, and his recollection was compelling enough to convince the judge. A clear X-ray shows that most of the cerebral cortex is gone.

Stick to skinning...
Reply #3 Top
For better or worse, at least this whole ordeal will slowly fade -- I hope.

No, it won't. Have you read some of the blogs so far. You would think the Democratic Minority Leader pulled the plug. Besides, I don't think it's a D-R or L-C thing anyway. People have very specific views about death, euthenasia, quality of life that exists beyond the political arena.

And you made my point.:

"The left comes across as looking hypocritical and ghoulish" You don't think the Reps are going to play that little nugget up in the press in 2006 abd 2008? and that the Dems are not going to show the interventionist aspects of the Reps. in the Congress, trying to bypass the state courts and federal courts. Both parties dangerously split the electorate in 2004 with the war, etc. You don't think they won't do it again with an issue that has been around for dacades?

No, this is not going away. It will probably become a cancer. It will go into remission, we will go about our lives, then some event will cause it to rear its head again.

Too bad.

IG

Reply #4 Top

The left comes across as looking hypocritical and ghoulish (in talking to friends and neighbors, the joke "They should have said she was a member of Al Qaeda, then the liberals would have protested to keep her alive!).

I so hoped that it would not come to pass as a left right or democrat conservative issue.  Indeed my wife (a Bush hater) and I agree almost completely on this.

But if anyone is going to make it a political issue it is the ones that feel the most guilt for her torture and suffering.  For it is the wounded animal that lashes out the most viciously.

Reply #5 Top
My wife and I and a number of people we have encountered since this whole situation started now have living wills, wills, and DNRs.

Hopefully some good will never have to come from those documents. But I know they are in place.

I have noticed a bigger split between people with kids, without kids, married and not.

Starving a woman to death is wrong. I need to see what the BBC is saying, it should be interesting and probably depressing.
Reply #6 Top
My only concern is... a beloved pet would never be put down, by starvation... so why would we think it humane to do it to ourselves? What kind of logic is that?
Reply #7 Top

Stick to skinning, and leave the doctors to the decisions about who is or isn't in a "vegatative state." Unless you have an MD I don't know about.

There were a host of doctors who have said that such diagnosi are wrong 43% of the time and that there was definitely enough doubt to warrant further investigation.

Reply #8 Top

There were a host of doctors who have said that such diagnosi are wrong 43% of the time and that there was definitely enough doubt to warrant further investigation.

Doubt.  Funny thing about that.  Now there is none.  I guess those who lash out so viciously against reasonable doubt for Terri can gloat in that fact.

Reply #9 Top

Given how much energy is put in to find any doubt whether someone on death roll actually commited the crime it's amazing how little effort was put in to be certain of a) Terry's condition and B) whether she'd want to be starved to death.

It doesn't take a medical doctor to say that maybe an MRI might have been a nice step. It doesn't take a medical doctor to observe numerous medical experts who say that it's not definite (it's not like she was in a coma).

Not that it matters now. Frankly, perhaps now's the time to strike while the iron is hot and advocate that all people who cannot feed themselves (due to disability or fiscal irresponsibility) be put to death... Obviously I'm not serious but where do we draw the line? We don't starve animals to death. It's actually illegal in all 50 states.

Reply #10 Top
Not that it matters now. Frankly, perhaps now's the time to strike while the iron is hot and advocate that all people who cannot feed themselves (due to disability or fiscal irresponsibility) be put to death... Obviously I'm not serious but where do we draw the line? We don't starve animals to death. It's actually illegal in all 50 states.


I knew it was illegal in most. But you are right on striking while the iron is hot. And there will be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth on both side of the political spectrum.
Reply #11 Top
It wasn't that the judges thought she was in a "persistant vegetative state" or that she may not have wanted to continue living that way. The judges simply had more to gain by killing her than by allowing her to live.

Reply #12 Top
Stick to skinning, and leave the doctors to the decisions about who is or isn't in a "vegatative state." Unless you have an MD I don't know about.


The court watched the full 4-hour video, including the parts that millions of people saw. Terry's husband was corroborated by a few other people, and his recollection was compelling enough to convince the judge. A clear X-ray shows that most of the cerebral cortex is gone.


And yet, since the person who allegedly said, "I wouldn't want to live that way" was not in court to actually say it, the court illegally accepted "hearsay" as testimony.

Also, Myrrander, if I had have continued to listen to people just because they have "MD" after their names, the cardiac meds they erroneously put me on would have placed me in a "persistent vegetative state" by now... Just something to think about.

The court also ignored every known protocol for "Implied Consent" laws and "Living Will" laws. In other words, they ignored medical procedure, in favor of political expediency.

Furthermore, Wesner, I don't usually waste my time replying to worthless "anonymous users", but your lie shouldn't go unchallenged.

Since "X-Rays" only show contrasts in hard tissues, how would one "clearly show" anything about the cerebral cortex? You may be a bonehead, but that doesn't mean Terri Schiavo was.
Reply #13 Top
I so hoped that it would not come to pass as a left right or democrat conservative issue. Indeed my wife (a Bush hater) and I agree almost completely on this.


Agreed Dr. Guy. Making this a partisan issue is more braindead that Terri Schiavo ever was (including now).
Reply #14 Top
Hmmm...I have thoughts both in favor and against Mr. Schaivo's actions.

I guess the main thing going for him is that once you marry someone, your spouse is considered your next-of-kin, who, in the event of certain circumstances, can make those choices for you. Obviously no one ever thought it would come to this...but he did have that going for him...

On the other hand...I think he's a total bastard for several reasons. What kind of person is he to not let the Schindlers in to be with their daughter in the last moments of her life? I've been there...those minutes are sacred. How can you just be so selfish and not let them in? My other thing is...yeah...I can see him being a young man and wanting to move on with his life and have a family or whatever. If something were to happen to Ryan, I don't think I'd want to live my life alone, either. But there comes a point where you can say...okay...hmmm....maybe I shouldn't have two things going here.

Also...I guess I wonder why its taken this long to have the feeding tube permanently removed. It would have been one thing to let her go at the time of the incident itself, but after all these years...I have a big problem with it.

At any rate, I'm glad the ordeal is over, and I hope that the grieving parties can take comfort from each other and their faith and move on... I wish the Schindlers would have been able to take care of their little girl like they wanted...but I guess it was not to be.
Reply #15 Top
Also...I guess I wonder why its taken this long to have the feeding tube permanently removed. It would have been one thing to let her go at the time of the incident itself, but after all these years...I have a big problem with it.


That would mean that even with a living will it would only take one person with a bit of cash to make that living will as meaningless as not having one. At least the practive over here is that hospitals tend to keep you alive if you're a likely donor and are registered as such.
Reply #16 Top
Let me chime in with my thoughts....first up...the MSM is pushing the myth that only the devoutely religious were in favor of saving her life...well if thats the case, then I wouldn't have been included as I am not very religious...this would also include a large chunk of those who were in favor of life for terry or at the very least a another look at all the evidence and full test results....which the husband never allowed to have done her whole time in that condition.

As to the recommendations of Doctors both for and against, only a hand full actually were given a chance to examine Terry..mostly from those who were in favor of letting her die...the vast majority never saw her and fewer still had access to her medical records...from both sides....but this is ignored or glossed over by the media and those who wanted her to die...

Stick to skinning, and leave the doctors to the decisions about who is or isn't in a "vegatative state." Unless you have an MD I don't know about.


Myr...at least your consistent in being an ass....you do it well


Let me finish by sayinga what if.

What if evidence is found/discovered/produced to show that the position taken by those who were willing to let her die on very flimsy hearsay evidence and a slanted judge (who took by the 15hrs to write a statement to the press, but didnt take that long to judge the evidence) were wrong...legally, ethicly, and morally...would those who pushed in an almost insane way for her to die appologise to the family? or would they just shrug it off as 'oh well, better luck next time'?
Reply #17 Top
ABOUT time.

Never have I wanted someone to pass away so quickly. Alas the hypocrisy will continue. A nation willing to war with another
who hasnt wronged it ... now sooo concerned about one persons life.

Meanwhile Miss Hudson (a black woman) of Texas lost her son whose life support was disconnected because she couldnt
afford to maintain it. A law signed into power by ... GUESS WHO???

If Terry wasnt a Schindler/Schiavo we would NEVER had heard of this.
Reply #18 Top
>What if evidence is found/discovered/produced to show that the position taken by those who were willing to let her die on

blah blah blah
yadda yadda yadda
spare me your "compassion"

>would those who pushed in an almost insane way for her to die appologise to the family? or would they just shrug it off as
>'oh well, better luck next time'?

Who cares, 15 years is more than enough. Shes been there wasting services that could be used in care of others with better
hope of leading a normal life.

If you arent up and about after a year ... the option should exist to relieve you of your misery.
I still think it would have been more humane to administer a lethal injection than have her wasting services for 13 days.
That legal injection should have been done 14 years ago.
Reply #19 Top

I just read a poll that 62% of people polled think Terri's remains should be turned over to the Schindlers.  If they think they have the right to her "after death" and they also think she "died 15 yrs ago", why wasn't she turned over to them long ago?

I am not a member of the religious right, I don't believe that Terri would ever be "normal" again, but I do believe that the default should be life until strongly proven that a person should be starved.  If her parents were able to pay for her care by their own means, why not let them?  If you believe Terri isn't aware, it isn't hurting her to keep her body around for their sake.  By killing her, you kill any hope and joy that her family derived from her.  What good comes from that?

Reply #20 Top
>If he had been the one yelling "Pull the Plug!!!" I bet you'd have been the one holding the biggest BUSH=HITLER sign
>of them all, eh, rombios?

I would be holding that sign for OTHER reasons but not for this. In this I would support him if he made a thought out
decision. You are wrong if you think my feelings are driven by hatred of BUSH. Both BUSH's are opportunists but they
have very little to do with this. In fact their greatest crime is their involvment and hypocrisy.

Set aside the fact that government has very little business poking into our private lives.

This woman has been useless for 15 years. ... 14 years too many.
My feeling about this remains the same ... she has been wasting vital resources for over 15 years. Enough is enough. After
the first year her life should have been terminated with a lethal injection ... free her from her misery.

All this talk of Bush Hatred this and Bush Hatred that.
I am no particular fan of the President before him. Clinton had his faults ... too numerous to list
They include
Attack on Somalia
Involvement in Serbia and Air campaign which led to the deaths of innocents
Mis-direction in bombing a drug factory in the Sudan
there are others.

little_whip. heres an advice .. learn to think BEYOND your feelings for or against an individual, and stop reaching conclusions
without proof (like your Bush Hater nonsense)
Reply #21 Top
Well, the soap has finally ended, as I have no other way of describing it. And the arguments here. You don't starve animals to death for instance. No, you don't, you put them actively out of their misery. On humans it would be called euthanesia. And as that option was out, there was no other legal choice to put her finally out of her misery.
And if I don't know how many judges each time rule the same way, with such a powerful lobby and lawyers to persuade them otherwise, I would say Terry's husband had a pretty powerful case, the only arguments I have heard against the rulings can all be safely classified as FUD.
The only wakeup call I see here (besides getting your wills about when to stop treatment in order:-) ) is the total disregard politicians showed for the legal system. But hey, what else do you expect in a soap?
Reply #22 Top
Well, the soap has finally ended, as I have no other way of describing it. And the arguments here. You don't starve animals to death for instance. No, you don't, you put them actively out of their misery. On humans it would be called euthanesia. And as that option was out, there was no other legal choice to put her finally out of her misery.
And if I don't know how many judges each time rule the same way, with such a powerful lobby and lawyers to persuade them otherwise, I would say Terry's husband had a pretty powerful case, the only arguments I have heard against the rulings can all be safely classified as FUD.
The only wakeup call I see here (besides getting your wills about when to stop treatment in order:-) ) is the total disregard politicians showed for the legal system. But hey, what else do you expect in a soap?
Reply #23 Top
I think he's a total bastard for several reasons. What kind of person is he to not let the Schindlers in to be with their daughter in the last moments of her life?


another villianous act by the judas of the new millenium huh? her parents werent even there (probably cuz michael sent a suicide bomber to keep em away). that prick--determined to deprive terri of one last moment of quality time on earth--had the nerve to ask her brother (who'd caused some sorta scene sufficient to require the cops to be called into the room) to take the fight outside. no wonder rational, well-informed common sensible americans hate that bastard and fervently pray he'll be smote by the hand of god (before or after having the mark of cain imprinted on his forehead). the scumbag claimed to be trying to maintain a semblance of dignity but you don't need a college degree (actually having one would probably cloud your vision) to connect the dots. that cowardly wife-killer just wanted to be alone with terri so he could shove a pillow down her throat.
Reply #24 Top

It is interesting that some are trying to make this a secular / religious issue.  As an agnostic (I don't have enough faith to be an atheist) I find the argument that only religious people were against what happened to Terry to be amusing.

I simply believe in the rights of individuals. And in this case, we don't know what the individual wanted. That's why they have living wills. The evidenciary burden on Michael should have been much higher when talking about issues of life and death.

It should be noted, in 15 years she never had even one PET scan.  That's ridiculous. 

What I just don't understand is that the same people who shriek that this woman needed to be starved to death are the ones who shriek about any idea of cutting welfare programs.  Why not less those Americans who are so brain dead that they can't figure out how to get food starve too? I hear it's painless..

Reply #25 Top
"And I'm sorry, no matter how strongly you feel that the war in Iraq was not justified, comparing the deaths that occur (on both sides, I'll remind you) during armed conflict to starving a defenseless citizen to death is just a straw that won't hold, no matter how often you grasp it."

I trust that your humanity also cries for the tens of thousands of dead and maimed Iraqi children; cry also for the tens of thousands of dead and maimed Iraqi civilians; and cry for the dead and maimed Iraqi freedom fighters; cry for these righteous martyrs and you shed tears of grace.

Thus far American military superiority has killed more than 100 thousand Iraqi civilians and freedom fighters. To suggest that these dead souls had a fighting chance against the American death machine, to ignore the their defenseless state, is to disregard that which belongs to critical thinkers: facts! Get your facts straight. It is true, however, that the droves of human beings daily slaughtered by the tyrannical-hand of that evil war monger Bush were not helplessly lying in a bed in a hospice; rather they were leading vigorous lives, which were tragically cut short by Bush and his blue state backers. At least, Michael Shicvao's motive was to honor his wife's wishes, and not the self-interest that underlying the action of Bush and his thugs , the blue-state rednecks.