Intel exec fears for U.S. competitiveness

Future US role in technology in doubt?

http://news.com.com/Intel+exec+fears+for+U.S.+competitiveness/2100-1008_3-5598936.html?tag=nefd.top
from WinCustomize Forums

SAN FRANCISCO--Echoing concerns voiced by Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, a top Intel executive warned on Thursday that the United States risks becoming a second-tier technology player because of a declining educational system.

"We have a lousy education system," Intel Senior Vice President Pat Gelsinger said, speaking on a panel of technology leaders at the Intel Developer Forum here. "We have a weak infrastructure that is decaying."

Gelsinger noted that companies like Intel can adjust by hiring workers in other places but said the consequences for the United States could be devastating. He has noted in the past that the decline in the number of doctorates being awarded is particularly troubling.

I think it goes well beyond this. American culture is also becoming less competitive in the global market place in my opinion. The American need for instant gratification is really problematic.  Stardock, an American company, is really half European, half American. That's because many American workers want to make money really fast and in the technology indstury, particularly when dealing in emerging markets, it takes considerable up-front investment in time and energy. Many young Americans don't have the patience or willingness to make short-term sacrifices in order for long-term success.

15,209 views 34 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Maybe the big corps should look into investing money into the school system. Start with getting teachers better pay and benefits.
Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Paying teachers more will not make your kids smarter. The whole system needs to be changed.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The problem is that our government likes people this way...dumber people make better sheep...Easier to pull the wool over their eyes.
Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I just saw an article not more than a week ago, that said American programmers are STOMPING overseas programmers in all of the world coding competitions. Wish I could remember the link, but it was up on Drudgereport.

Of the top 10 coders everytime they compete, 6-8 of them are Americans.

The reason people use overseas programmers is because they are cheap. Thats it in a nutshell - they aren't better, and for small companies or indy developers, cheap talent is important when they don't have the cash to spring for top-kit US talent. A good programmer in India is happy to make 10K a year, good money for over there. Can you blame a US guy for wanting a good income? Its expensive to live in this country, and people require substantial incomes to flourish.

Good game programmers I know in the US, won't even blink at you if you offer them less than 75K a year base salary + perks.
Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have to agree with Kobrano. It all comes down to money. Very few Corporations want to pay a fair wage. IT salaries have been going down, as well as going overseas, for the last few years. So it should come as no surprise that less people want to get into the field.
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The notion that there simply are not many PhD's being produced in America or that they are on the decline is far from the truth. It may be relevant specifically to the IT field, but Chemistry, Biochemistry, Biology, Molecular Biology, and Neurology doctorates are currently oversaturating the marketing. I'm only a 2nd year Ph.D. student, and when I started it generally took 1 post-doctoral fellowship in order to land yourself a tenure-track position at a high-level university. 2 years later you've gotta do 2 post-doctoral studies with umphteen publications in high-tier journals to even be considered for some liberal arts college.
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top
well, the educational system needed to be overhauled decades ago. it is based on a pre-industrial thought on how education should work.

Back then, you could leave 6th grade and be wll off.

Indrustry has changed and you can not just do manual labor anymrore. It is tech driven and businesses are demanding KNOWLEDGE workers.


The current system is designed for kids to memorize and learn how to read and write, not think. Also keep in mind that there are other skils such as social skills that don't get developed.

And it is expensive to live in the cities of the USA. With housing costs sky rocketing, you can't even move to New Mexico without losing your shirt.
Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top

My point isn't that Americans aren't good coders - they are. But rather that Americans, as a culture, are so fixated on isntant gratification that businesses are increasingly going overseas.

It has nothing to do with "fair" wages. What the heck is a "fair wage" anyway? Americans want to get rich quick relatively speaking.  Our European developers, on average, make a lot of money these days.  But not at first.

By contrast, American CS studens come out of college with their half-assed knowledge on software development and demand big bucks on day one.  Sorry, it's a global market these days. I have no sympathy for the Americans on this one (and I say that as an American software developer).

Americans can code just as well if not better than people from around the world.

Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
i don't think the industry has to throw money into the educational system, i think the government does

war is peace,
freedom is slavery,
ignorance is strength..
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top

The US already spends more per child than any other country. The money is poorly used.

Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Of course people want to get rich, its the American Dream. But I think its unfair to say they all exit college with the idea they want to get rich quick - I don't believe that is true for a minute. Most people I know, after college expect a reasonable wage - thats a pretty relative term, but I think in general, 50-55K a year minimum for a fresh graduate. Do you consider that excessive?

Overseas living requirements and costs need to be considered. A guy making 50K a year in India, is a rich mofo. A guy making 50K a year here, is at best, getting by. You can't blame people for wanting enough money to have a reasonable living without wanting to become slaves to the corporate overlords at 70 hours a week. A guy overseas can probably sustain himself on a meager salary with the promise of a bright future. A guy in the US doesn't have that luxury unless he lives in his moms basement, and if he just spent 7 years at a university, can you blame him for not accepting that?

Your "Sorry its a global market" statement works both ways. Don't expect people to have a shred of ambition to purchase products from "American" companies, when they can buy cheaper Chinese products, or pick up freeware alternatives programmed in Russia. Its a two way street. I have no sympathy for American Corporations when they cry about not being able to compete, and your statement reinforces why I feel this way.
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
your "American Dream" needs a facelift... face reality: you simply can't get rich quick, not in the US of A nor anywhere else in the world.

The Educational System of the US needs to be restructured (the one here in Germany too).
Good Coders are always an exception... and theses exceptions are not programming any kind of crap for Microshit or Intel.
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The last time the American educational system was significantly overhauled at once was around the time of the Space Race in order to keep up with those dirty commies (the new math, and all of that). That's not to say that some changes have not occurred; plenty of things are different. For instance, when I was in elementary school, there was a big fad among teachers of having kids "just sound it out" instead of being taught phonics for spelling. Luckily my third grade teacher never bought into that crap, but there are probably a lot of people who are still bad spellers that were put through that system (and don't get me started on the habits kids are picking up from leetspeak and all that other online garbage). Basically, I think that's just a symptom of the overall "sensitizing" of America. Don't tell kids in school they're wrong, it might hurt their feelings. Freedom of expression came to mean immunity from being told you're wrong. Tolerance became a buzzword for acceptance. It isn't just the schools, it's everywhere.

Get rich quick has always been a part of the so-called American dream, or at least a skewed one that rears it's ugly head now and again (getting rich through hard work would be the real one). That problem has been exacerbated by the tech bubble of the late '90s where people actually were getting rich overnight. Write up a rosy Internet-based business plan, do an IPO, and in one day people went from thousands in debt to instant millionaires (and two Super Bowl commercials later, they're back to debt). It's almost like getting rich quick is the perceived birthright of the tech sector.

The answer to solving the education problem is not the traditional Democrat answer, just throw money at a problem and it will go away. The answer is not the traditional Republican answer, cut taxes and get private interests involved to make the world a better place. The best and brightest of America in general are not becoming teachers. They need to in order for real progress to be made. They don't and it's not just the low pay because the best and brightest know how to prosper regardless of their income. Red tape and bureaucratic excesses cover the public school systems, weighing them down. What smart person wants to board a sinking ship? It's a chicken-or-egg problem though. Smart people generally aren't going to join a messed-up system, but it can't get fixed without them. It's going to take a generation of altruistic geniuses to get everything in line. Good luck, America, you're going to need it.

As a side note, ever notice how no one in the world ever seems to elect history or math professors to goverment positions? Why do lawyers always get the jobs? Do you think this disparity has something to do with a lot of the world's problems? Wouldn't it make sense to elect people who study and learn from the mistakes of the past along with people who can balance a budget and use calculators accurately? Why do I sound like an angry over-the-hill parent of a teenager when I'm only 19?
Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I agree with Kobrona that (increasingly) the "American dream" is to get rich -- QUICK -- without having to sacrifice.

In our case, a lot of the software we make is in emerging markets. There's an element of risk involved in whether it will succeed or not.  Few young Americans these days seem to be willing to go a few lean years for long term potential success. They'd rather go out and get their "big" paying jobs.

And frankly, if your $50k per year job can be outsourced to someone making $10k per year, then good. Why should companies discriminate to such an extreme length just to get "native" people?  

We don't outsource labor to China or India or whatever. We look for the BEST developers we can find who are interested in creating new things that will involve a lot of work and some short term sacrifice. And now we have some pretty wealthy successful software developers -- who live in Europe because they were willing to take a chance and apply their immense skills.

WindowBlinds, IconPackager, SkinStudio, DesktopX, and most of the other programs on WinCustomize were coded largely by Europeans - not because it was "cheaper" but because they were willing to look towards the long term.

In my opinion, the only reason why the Europeans don't already dominate the technology field (oir at least run a lot more strongly) is that their governments are idiotic in how they tax and over-regulate their companies.

Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Of course people want to get rich, its the American Dream. But I think its unfair to say they all exit college with the idea they want to get rich quick - I don't believe that is true for a minute. Most people I know, after college expect a reasonable wage - thats a pretty relative term, but I think in general, 50-55K a year minimum for a fresh graduate. Do you consider that excessive?


Of course that is excessive. Someone spends years in college with little or no real work experience, and they should immediately make at least $50,000 a year?
Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
And frankly, if your $50k per year job can be outsourced to someone making $10k per year, then good. Why should companies discriminate to such an extreme length just to get "native" people?


Probably because when you outsource people here in the US lose jobs and thats not good for a company or the economy because that guy without a job can't buy the companies product because he has no money because said company outsourced.
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Kona - by that argument we should just stop trading at all with other countries. American consumers outsource jobs every day. Next time you look at some commodity good, note where it was made - China. 

Many times the choice isn't between an American or someone outside the US.  It's someone outside the US or not being able to compete in the market.

American consumers don't seem to be that concerned about where the products they purchase are made. They go by price. Companies, in turn, have to respond by finding ways to lower their costs.

The problem is that younger Americans combine a sense of entitlement with a lack of work ethic. As Island Dog points out, it's ridiculous that American college students graduate thinking they should get $50k per year (or even $40k per year) simply because they took some classes.  That's what's making the US less competitive. 

I'm not a politician, so I'm not going to pander to Americans on this issue.  I want to hire Americans. It's a lot more convenient to do so.  But many technology jobs require a LOT of training and time before the person is able to produce anything worthwhile.  And Americans, increasingly, are unwilling to put in that time.  Europeans, for whatever cultural reasons, are willing to put in that time more often and so they get the jobs.

At our company, we don't discriminate. We don't care what color you are. What sex you are. Where you live.  We want the best and brightest who are willing to learn adn stick to it.  We have plenty of Americans who have been willing to stick to it and they often make 2X or 3X (and in one case 4X) what they started.  But they're rare.  For some reason, Europeans are much more likely to take a shot and sacrifice for the first few years, acquire the skills and become key people who are paid very well. 

My view of the American dream is that if you work hard and play by the rules you can succeed.

Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Interesting - point taken.
Reply #19 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The problem is that younger Americans combine a sense of entitlement with a lack of work ethic. As Island Dog points out, it's ridiculous that American college students graduate thinking they should get $50k per year (or even $40k per year) simply because they took some classes. That's what's making the US less competitive.


Umm, its not that they "Expect" 40-50K a year starting out, its pretty much a requirement. I mean thats about the least amount someone can make around here and "Survive". I'm still quite shocked that people think 40-50k a year is "Great Money".

I don't think its anything to do with work ethic or entitlement mentalities. Its everything to do with people not willing to become victims of the corporate machine. I've worked in all sizes of corporations, but they all share one thing in common, they want to suck the life out of you and make you slaves to the machine. People in the US nowdays are smart enough to know most corporations are evil, and out to screw you over, thats the way it works in life. So people wised up and now have a "Take what you can get" mentality, because the reality is, the longterm payouts ain't guaranteed and the corporations will usually find a way to screw you out of any verbal promises they made. A corporation will show you the door on a drop of a hat. Things run lean a few months, your gone. You make a mistake, your gone. You don't fit into the cult(company atmosphere), your gone.

So the basic mentality is, get in and negotiate as much as you can upfront, because nothing else is guaranteed. Can you blame them? The corporate environments in this country sucks and everyone is wise to the games they play. Some professors are actually teaching classes on corporate greed and how to overcome it as an employee now btw.

Another reason why overseas developers will work for less is many are unemployed over there, with an average unemployment rate of 10-18% (or higher). The currency exchange rate was pretty good for awhile which helped US jobs look lucrative. Money goes much farther over there (depending on country) than it does here. Another reason is they can work out of their home and don't have to put up with the bullshit of the corporate work environment and day to day hassles of trying to work with other wierdos.

So don't kid yourself, and think they are doing all of this for the "Good of the company". They are doing it purely because its their best option other than being unemployed, its convienent - they can work from home, and the money isn't bad considering exchange rates. None of this appeals to high quality American coders obviously, so its disingenuous to blame them, and label it all a conspiracy.
Reply #20 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Umm, its not that they "Expect" 40-50K a year starting out, its pretty much a requirement. I mean thats about the least amount someone can make around here and "Survive". I'm still quite shocked that people think 40-50k a year is "Great Money".


That is in no way a requirement. People survive on a lot less, they might not have everything they want, but they are comfortable. I really don't know where you are getting those figures that you think people who make less than $50K can't make it, that is just false.

Actually if you can make $50K that is great money. But once again like Brad said, just because you take some classes, have no real working experience, you should make at least $50K? That seems to be the problem right there. What happened to working your way up, what happened to starting small and gaining valuable work experience? No, it's just go to college, then get out and expect a high salary for someone with no experience but a piece of paper which says I showed up for class.
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Actually this depends entirely on where you live. In the high wage markets like New York and California, 50k is below poverty level. My cousin delivers car batteries for Interstate in CA and cleared $102,000 in 2004 and considers that "Just ok" (as he put it). Last year I was in CA for a vacation, and a small trailer home would set you back 250K. A decent house? Pull out that million from your bank.

Around here (which happens to be close to Stardock) 50K is actually below average. Last I checked the average wage for this county is around 60K a year now. But considering the cost of living is 25-35%+ higher than many other places this isn't difficult to understand why. (Keeping in mind that average includes fast food workers and such). My personal experiance - and I don't have a 4 year degree, is i've never made less than 50K since I was 20 years old (and i'm 37 now). I must confess, I did accept a 50K job late last year(which was my counter offer to a 40K proposal) but only because of the promises of a great workplace and high commission potential - when I felt neither was true, my mind was pretty set on leaving quite early on due to the low salary. I worked for 7 years as a Radioshack Sales Manager and District Sales Manager Trainee, and never made less than 70K a year. Point is, making 40-50k a year starting out ain't unique, its commonplace, especially for graduates of a 4+ year university.

So is it really unreasonable to expect a 40-50K starting salary for a 4-7 year investment in a university + intern experiance? Certainly almost everyone does intern work during their summers to build experiance so they aren't THAT green, are they? Around here 40-50k is below average, but good enough for someone to start out and build up from there. Corporations try to get people for as cheap as possible, but when you can't pay the labor market in your area who is to blame for that? The workers? I don't think so.
Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Umm, its not that they "Expect" 40-50K a year starting out, its pretty much a requirement. I mean thats about the least amount someone can make around here and "Survive". I'm still quite shocked that people think 40-50k a year is "Great Money".

I rest my case. In a subsequent post, you even go so far as to say that $50k in California is "poverty level". 

And hence many Americans price themselves out of the market.

As someone who hires people of all kinds of levels, it depends largely on their skill set which is usually part experience. I've hired plenty of people from other companies who were making far less than $40k per year. And I've hired people who make more.

There are a lot of variables involved. Our company, for instance, focuses on emerging technologies. I.e. we are developing things that didn't previously exist (games, desktop enhancements).  So on average, it's a bit more enjoyable than the guy working for some mega insurance company. 

But that also means that our customers (you guys) determine how much something can be sold for.  And that in turn determines how much we can spend on it. Which in turn affects how much we can pay people to work on it. 

If I make a product that will make $1 million during its effective lifetime, I obviously can't spend more than that if I want to stay in business.  Since Americans don't really care that much about WHERE something is made, my products and services have to compete with products made by people all over the world (as well as with "freeware").  Look at all the people who bellyache'd last month about RightClick costing $14.95!

So how much we can pay someone is dependent on how much they produce. Typically, it takes quite awhile for someone to be able to produce high quality results in high enough quantity.  Many (most) Americans aren't willing to go without. Like you said, they expect to come out of college and make $40k to $50k per year.  Fine, they can expect whatever they want.  But they don't have the skills necessary right out of college to justify that either because they weren't willing to learn on their own or their education was lacking. 

The Americans we hire in the technology area typically start at far less. One, because we're a fun place to work at for most people and two, because we have a consistent record of rewarding those who increase their skills and output with significant increases in salary. 

But where we can't find someone to do the job, we don't discriminate, we'll look to anyone we can and that increasingly means Europeans who are willing to sacrifice short-term for long term gain.

If Americans want to make the big bucks right out of college without fear of being outsourced then they need to dramatically increase their skills. And the first step would be to get our education system improved so that college graduates don't require a few years of training before they can produce anything of real value.

Reply #23 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Once again, its arguable as to whether their skills are really lacking as bad as you say right out of school. I've seen plenty of graduates that could program circles around some of the "Veterans" i've seen at some companies. Its a bit too complex or an issue to "Generalize" and say they are all inexperianced and require too much money.

Again, 40K-50K is a pretty low income around here based on the cost of living and labor markets. I think the tech fields as a rule, pretty much suck right now. If I was to go get a degree, i'd get one in the heathcare field. A RN walks out of college and gets 50 job offers, most with hiring bonuses, and a BASE salary of 60-70K a year (as a new graduate). A RT can easily walk into a 55K a year BASE position with only a 2 year degree requirement. Keeping in mind these positions are all 30-36 hour work weeks. What do tech positions have to offer to compete with that? 50-60+ hour work weeks, crunch-times, high stress, and mediocre salaries with low job security? No thanks.

Don't blame American workers for having realistic salary requirements just because you can't afford them. Plenty of companies can afford them, and they reap the benefits of top-kit talent, high productivity of on-site programmers (overseas outsourced programming causes a huge loss in efficiency), and supporting the American economy and labor markets with reasonably well paid professionals.

In close, I think our educational system is fine, our workforce is fine, and our talent pool is quite good. Hiring our talent comes with a price, but most of that price is a requirement, because we don't live in shanty towns and drink out of the creek in this country.



PS: I'd like to remind you in your "I need a new car" blog, that you stressed that you wanted an "American Made Car".Link. I'd like to point out that this is entirely hypocritical, considering in this thread you are giving American workers the big middle finger essentually. When you outsource thousands a month in salaries overseas, and make a "Trivial" gesture by buying an American car, you can't expect people to be too thrilled with your core values and strong principles. You can't have it both ways i'm afraid.Link
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
Kobrano, please see http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/nurse-salaries.htm

Starting base for an RN= $39,000

One of the reasons for the shortage is the high turnover rate, caused in part by burnout. A significent percentage LEAVE the field after a few years.
Reply #25 from WinCustomize Forums Top
WOM remembers when he was an Army recruiter in NY and a high school teacher wanted to join the reserves as an officer. He only scored a 49 and you needed at least a 50 to qualify with the bare minimum. This was someone teaching our kids.

From what I've seen of the people that graduate from HS or college, most are not very smart.

Oh well, I hate to type.