drmiler:

This ia my E-mail address ( [email protected]). Send me an E-mail and I will forward your E-mail to Prof Tsurumi. Then you can get confirmation first hand if you dare. My bet is you do not want first hand info about Saint George.

With all do respect Sir, I have to disagree. I was an AGR (Active Guard Reserve) NCO for an Aviation Unit for over four years, and have served on a Battalion staff since then. The man was able to complete what is called a "good year". That is why he got an Honorable discharge and his retirement points. To receive a good year you need to attend 48 SUTAs (Training periods). There are generally 78 SUTAs in a year (2 per day, 24 drill days and 15 Annual Training days). If you check the records posted all over the internet you will notice and count at least 48 (the count is fifty four), and that is not accounting the missing six months that happened to all National Guardsmen during that period when they changed the system from manual hand records to an automated system. I would ask you to check your records as proof Sir, but the Reserve Component was not using the same system at the time. Even if you don't want to accept the six months that no records exist that shows that he missed the drill or was at drill, you only minus 4 SUTAs for each drill month. So if you minus 24 from 78 you get 54. Since the required is 48, case closed Sir. Sir, I am not sure if you served in an aviation unit. But life for an officer is much different in an Aviation unit then those of none aviation units. During my time in that aviation unit, I had met many of officers and could not tell you if 1LT John Doe made all his physicals and drills just five years later, let alone 20 years. If you’re saying he disobeyed a direct order to get his physical, then produce the orders. I personally know that many flight officers (can't remember their names now), didn't give a s*%t about taking their last physical before they left service. Why, they will be out of service flying for Delta in no time. Why waste the time, when or if you're called back to service you will receive a physical then. Losing flight statue for the last few months in service is no big deal. Us NCOs get ticked off when we see the different standards officers received. By all accounts Bush’s Admin NCO who did handled all such records and details can't remember anything special about Bush. That is why someone had to fabricate documents that did not exist. As for leaving service months early before the end of contract? I am sure you didn't questioning Mr. Kerry about the same thing are you. Not only did he leave Vietnam in a flash, but he was completely out of Service within a year of return and years before his contract ended.

Hey COL I guess this info means absolutely nothing to you as you never even tried to refute it. BTW it's from Lee1776. Refute "this if you dare!

Your link shows that Bush did not attend drills in may,june, july,Aug, sept and December which is what I said.

1. That does not matter, to make a good year.

2. Come on COL you know better then that. As a former Commander you should know this already. You can't pull the wool over my eyes, because I handle this all the time. A soldier/airman can make up a drill either before of after the drill period by up to 90 days (that is by today’s standards, back then it was even more lacks). Check Apr 72 and you will notice that he conducted all his drills early for May, June, and July. Nov 72 covers for Sept 72. Jan 73 covers Dec 72. That leaves Aug 72, Woo Whoo that means he missed two drill days for Aug 72 (That’s not counting the change over in the systems, notice the different types of records format that overlap. The same change over that Messed up thousands of retirement points) . While you like to point out that he was not there during those months, you personally already know that it is not uncommon for troops to do this. It is even more common for pilots who must come in off of drill days to get fight times using airframes schedules, especially during the week when full time techs. are at work.

Count the days Sir for CY 72. You will notice that they add up to him being short just two days, which does not even qualify for a bad remake on his OER (unless the rater is a prick or has an axe to grind), let alone a bad year.

That was also documented on his OER that said he could not be rated during this period because he was not observed.

Check the dates of all his attendance. Drills are generally the first weekend of the month, right Sir? The days that he did come in to drill look mostly not in the first weekend of the month. Can you tell me if the rater was a full timer? Just because the wing commander is a full timer does not mean the rater is the wing commander. He was most likely his Reviewer with a Senior rater in between. (How many Lt. OERs did you write as a full bird?) I would bet the rater (i.e. Captain or Senior Lt. holding position) was a part timer that was not there the same days . I have written the same "not observed" statement on more then one NCOER for soldier detached to other posts (much like Bush was).

That's My Two Cents

Bush had enough points for a good year. That does not mean you can fail to attend drills for six months when you are in the troop program unit. I had years when I had 96 points but was expected to attend each month. Bush also missed a national training exercise in Oct 1972. As to his physical, as a aviator, he is required to complete an annual physical to be able to fly. Bush was required to complete that physical and did not compete it which resulted in him being grounded. Bush was in the Air National Guard to Fly. His refusal to comply with regulations made him unable to meet his responsibilities. Lets see you explain that away. In addition, tell me when it is acceptable to not follow lawful orders and regulations as a member of the military, especially one that has the responsibility of being an officer. Regulations have the same force as direct orders and must be followed. Lets see you explain that away!

If the opinion of a foreigner is accepted, here it goes:

Christian fundamentalism leading the most powerful nation of the world is more dangerous for everyone than muslim fundamentalism leading the most powerful terrorist gang.

Bush had enough points for a good year. That does not mean you can fail to attend drills for six months when you are in the troop program unit. I had years when I had 96 points but was expected to attend each month. Bush also missed a national training exercise in Oct 1972. As to his physical, as a aviator, he is required to complete an annual physical to be able to fly. Bush was required to complete that physical and did not compete it which resulted in him being grounded. Bush was in the Air National Guard to Fly. His refusal to comply with regulations made him unable to meet his responsibilities. Lets see you explain that away. In addition, tell me when it is acceptable to not follow lawful orders and regulations as a member of the military, especially one that has the responsibility of being an officer. Regulations have the same force as direct orders and must be followed. Lets see you explain that away!

We need explain nothing. This is just more of the same old poop! Here's a man (lee1776) that deals with this stuff on a day to day basis. He gives you facts and you basically tell him he's full of it. One more instance of *your* always riiiiiiiight and the rest of us are always wrrrrrrrrong. It's a wonder anybody bothers to reply to anything you write.

If Jesus Christ came down and said George W. did not meet his obligations to the National Guard and did not obey orders, you would argue with him! You do not know what you are talking about. I spent 30 years giving and following orders in the military and Bush did not follow the orders and regulations that he was to follow by the oath he took and was allowed to get away with it.

Sir, you should already know my answer by now. I'm surprised you're even asking these questions. You taking everything by stickiest interpretation in a perfect world, when you know that there is plenty of "Commander's discretion" or alternate options. The system is more flexible then your discribing and only direct orders from a commander are direct orders. Since the Democratic party has ripped, searched, goaded, checked every computer system, filling cabinet, ect... Generally torn those records and units apart and have found no direct orders, then please show me some.

Bush also missed a national training exercise in Oct 1972.

You mean his AT (Annual Training)? That's 15 days a year above and beyond the two days a month, that the unit conducts group training. It is not uncommon for soldiers/airman to do those days off line too. Lets go back and check out the months I did not cover in my last posting above, that would be January and March of 72. Both of which have a long string of extra days (a little over a week each month). You will notice in CY 73 he did his AT in July.

Why would Bush be excused from this exercise? Let's go and add why he didn't attend scheduled drill dates, but make them up earlier (answered in my last post). What major event happens in Nov of every other year? What was Bush doing in Alabama? I think that would be Governor elections. Why would the unit commander allow him to miss AT and do a in house AT? He was running the election campaign of the future Governor to Alabama. Remember this is a National Guard unit and not a Reserve Unit. If that commander ever wanted to be the State Guard General (TAG), why in the world would he not allow Bush to conduct the drill dates off line (let alone the general courtesy). Call it influence if you want, but I have heard 50 times as many weaker reasons to do AT off line. Not even counting that he was only attached to the unit.

I want to thank you for removing any second thoughts in my mind about why Bush would slack off on the dates. By bringing these questions up you made me remember the main reason why he was in Alabama in the first place.

As to his physical, as a aviator, he is required to complete an annual physical to be able to fly. Bush was required to complete that physical and did not compete it which resulted in him being grounded. Bush was in the Air National Guard to Fly.

I already responded to this above in post:

I personally know that many flight officers (can't remember their names now), didn't give a s*%t about taking their last physical before they left service. Why, they will be out of service flying for Delta in no time. Why waste the time, when or if you're called back to service you will receive a physical then.

I see Bush as a pilot that was on his way out and was not looking back, after losing the thrill to fly. While it’s looked poorly upon, it is not worth giving a General or Dishonorable discharge over (again have you served in a Guard Aviation Unit, it's a different life). As for shipping him off to Vietnam over it, you got to be kidding. The war was over by then and sending anyone into active service would mean his commander was a jerk with an axe to grind. Only the most pissed off commander would take regs to the stickiest possible route (as you seem to want) , let alone the amount of counseling paperwork required.

That's My Two Cents

If Jesus Christ came down and said George W. did not meet his obligations to the National Guard and did not obey orders, you would argue with him! You do not know what you are talking about. I spent 30 years giving and following orders in the military and Bush did not follow the orders and regulations that he was to follow by the oath he took and was allowed to get away with it.

I myself may not know but you can't tell me that lee1776 doesn't know what he's talking about.

Oh and BTW that can be turned around on you! If Jesus came down and told you that he DID meet his obligations to the Guard... *You'd* argue with him too!

Bush used the Guard when he wanted to get out of Vietnam and when the responsibilities prevented him from running a political campaign in Alabama he did what he wanted regardless of his obligations. He did not take the physical he would required to take and was grounded. His officer efficiency report flatly stated he was not observed by his commanding officer from March 72 to more 73. George Bush did not meet the obligations and regulations he was obligated to obey as an officer in the air National Guard. He was able to avoid facing the consequences with the help of his families contacts. You can talk until you're blue in the face, George Bush disobeyed regulations did not show will for duty and cut 8 months from his obligation to the guard all because of the political pull of his family.

altho I was not going to resapond at all, because of my politics the TRUTH is.. leftwinger do not like bush because............... why????


he is not a democrat..

No, he has used poll rather then his own achievements to get where he has. If the young people today did as Bush did when it was his time to serve, we would not have the fine military we do in America!

His officer efficiency report flatly stated he was not observed by his commanding officer from March 72 to more 73.

Please show me where his "Rater" was there the same days as Bush. Again check the dates of his attendance (i.e. not the first week end of the month).

George Bush did not meet the obligations and regulations he was obligated to obey as an officer in the air National Guard.

Show me the counseling statements to Bush saying that he did not obey. If Bush was so far out of line to warrant a General or Dishonorable discharge there would be a mountain of paperwork (especially for an officer) and an Admin NCO that would remember.

when the responsibilities prevented him from running a political campaign in Alabama he did what he wanted regardless of his obligations.

The regs say he can make up drills and ATs on other then scheduled days, upon Commander's discussion. Can you prove the Commander did not give it? (there would be counseling statements on this as well as it appearing in his OER, and a demotion request) When this same subject came up during Bush's bid for Governor, that same Commander said their was no problem with Bush's service time. Now that the commander is dead, it is so easy for people to fabricate what they want.

I'm just going to let this end because when common since is used, you just want to bring out the rope. Life in the Guard is not ruled by the toughest end of the spectrum. Such attitudes reminds me of the Court Marshal episode in "The Band of Brothers". I would like to know how many soldiers you dishonorably discharged in your 30 years for not attending drills on drill dates (but making them up ahead of time while still having a good year), demotion request and not having any paperwork to support it.

Wake up Sir. You have been pounding the drum so hard that you can't hear common since over the noise.

Do I think he went into the Air National Guard in order to avoid Vietnam? Yes, but then you need to accuse every other person at that time in Air Guard of doing the same thing. You have been in the Reserves for 30 years, so that means that you most likely severed during the Vietnam time frame. Did you go to Vietnam?

Did his father help get him in above other qualified personnel, maybe. I'm not denying that was not impossible. I was not a member of the selection board, he did meet all the qualifications and could go to over a year and a half of training (something that discounts over half the applicants). But I don't think the Bush family went to a Democrat in the Texas Senate to get the posting. It would be a little idiotic to go to a person who was out spoken about the family back then, just as much as he is now.

I have an open mind with possibilities. But when I first hand know what happens in units like he was in, I have a tendency to see a political witch hunt when it happens. You have not provided any information or documentation that leads me to see it in your hardliners view.

At this point, if you don’t have any more documentation or info to add. We are finished with this hanging party.

That's My Two Cents

he is a Liar and never takes blames for his blunders which are many, especially Iraq. bush not capitalized due to "no respect for him".

If saddam was evil because he tortured (or had it done) and killed his people and BOTTOM LINE - THEY DIED; then bush is eveil because his people BOTTOM LINE - CONTINUE TO DIE from no health care, no food, no shelters and lack of education, and sending OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS TO WAR. In both cases the governed by both of these evil doers
is the same, their governed die.

Lee1776

Not getting the physical which is required by Regulation is the same as not following an order. In fact the Air Force requires an investigation when a pilot does not take a physical and is grounded. That report is missing. In addition, he did not attend a national homeland defense exercise in Oct 1972. There is also no evidence that he was granted permission to attend drills outside Texas.

There is also no evidence that he was granted permission to attend drills outside Texas.

There also none to the contrary is there?
And as Lee1776 has said if he had disobyed a lawful order don't you think he would have been at the very least written up? And if he was why have we not seen it. Give it up you ain't winning this one.

he is a Liar and never takes blames for his blunders which are many, especially Iraq. bush not capitalized due to "no respect for him".

Is that all you can do? Quote left-leaning liberal talking points?

In fact the Air Force requires an investigation when a pilot does not take a physical and is grounded. That report is missing.

Most likely the report was never done. Why go through all the trouble when they already know that man is leaving service for school by that time. If one was done, it would be in his 201 file on microfish at Guard Bureau. That would be a Microfish made years ago before Bush entered public life. Bush has releasted those Microfish Guard records (something Kerry refuses to do).

he did not attend a national homeland defense exercise in Oct 1972.

Do you have anything from the Commander requiring him to drill with the unit? All evidence shows that he drilled off line i.e. January and March. If that off line drill was not authorized then why was he paid?

There is also no evidence that he was granted permission to attend drills outside Texas.

Do you have evidence that the request was denied? His Texas Commander had never made a statement that he didn't grant permission. After being attacked on the subject for the last 15 years, you would think he would speak up if that was true. Anyway, Bush was still paid. If permission was not granted, they would not have paid him and would not even have coordinated with Alabama to learn of what dates he did drill.

Again your digging. After so many years no one has shown proof of this. Those looking are professional reporters and Democratic operatives.

If the opinion of a foreigner is accepted, here it goes: Christian fundamentalism leading the most powerful nation of the world is more dangerous for everyone than muslim fundamentalism leading the most powerful terrorist gang.

Hence why Americans rarely take the opinons of such "foreigners" seriously.

Throughout American history, most American Presidents were deeply religious. Jimmy Carter was arguably even more religious than Bush.

Moreover, modern mainstream Christianity is non-violent. (I'm an atheist, I don't really care about who's religion is better btw).  I'm nto hearing many Christians arguing that we should go out and exterminate the Muslims.  By contrast, prominent Muslim clerics are issuing Fatwas for the extermination of Americans.

leftwinger do not like bush because............... why???? he is not a democrat..

That's bullshit! But, coming from you...........

Throughout American history, most American Presidents were deeply religious. Jimmy Carter was arguably even more religious than Bush.

Throughout Universal History:
a) "Deeply Religous" does not equal fundamentalism.
It is fundamentalism of any kind that makes people incite their own to kill whoever is or thinks differently, not christianity or any other religion. I am a Christian btw.

I'm nto hearing many Christians arguing that we should go out and exterminate the Muslims. By contrast, prominent Muslim clerics are issuing Fatwas for the extermination of Americans.

Americans have earned hate from other peoples around the world, because those people don't know that it's not the American people who are causing the slaughtery. They do not see that it is the American leaders (not the people,) who send the armies to kill their families in their own land.

Finally, Mr B. is much more dangerous to the whole world (including the American people) because he has the media to convince his own that his crimes are a divine mission. In the end, it doesn't matter how prominent may any clerics be, they do not have the money nor the weapons, media, markets or even shoes to reach their own frontiers. Most of their followers are struggling to have something to eat, not trying to increase their wealth on the oil they do not have in their countries.

If those people knew that the big bucks will only reach a few Americans, they wouldn't hate Americans. But Mr. B is no fool to let them know that, is he?

Lee 1776 and Drmiler

I was able to locate my files I'm afraid you incorrectly stated what happened concerning Mr. Bush. As reported in the Globe on 2/11/04 Lt. Colonel Albert Lloyd retired National Guard personnel specialist is quoted as saying there is a difference between meeting the minimum for retirement points which is what George Bush did and meeting the minimum requirements required for an interceptor pilot. Interceptor pilot cannot maintain flight proficiency by simply attending the minimum number of drills required for good retirement year.

Lt. Bush did not attend the June July August September October drills, he did not get the flying time necessary to maintain flight proficiency. In addition because he failed to take the physical in August 1972, he was grounded.

Paragraph 2 - 29, Air Force manual 35-13 further requires that when ever a pilot fails to take their physical is a mandatory flight evaluation Board investigate and send to the Air Force. As you have noted 1776, that report is missing and was probably never completed. It was not optional but mandatory. why was this report not produced?

What we have in Mr. Bush is an individual who did not want to serve in Vietnam but make it look as he did. So we used his family influence step ahead of 150 other people ahead of him to secure a position in Guard. When in the spring and summer of 1972 his Guard requirements interfered with his plan to conduct a political campaign in Alabama he simply didn't attend drills and did not complete his physical exam resulting in him being grounded. The taxpayers that hundreds of thousands of dollars to train George Bush as a pilot and he in accepting the commission pledged to serve for a specific period of time. He did not fulfill those requirements and was allowed to get away with it and have no punishment or consequences.

President Clinton the vice president were much more straightforward they did want to serve and used deferremnts to avoid service. Mr. Bush on the other hand used the National Guard to avoid service in Vietnam. In fact on his application for the 147th fighter group he specifically said he did not serve overseas. If you believe the example set by our commander-in-chief is one you like to see emulated by the military of our country, you have very different set of standards that I do.

Lee 1776 and Drmiler I was able to locate my files I'm afraid you incorrectly stated what happened concerning Mr. Bush. As reported in the Globe on 2/11/04 Lt. Colonel Albert Lloyd retired National Guard personnel specialist is quoted as saying there is a difference between meeting the minimum for retirement points which is what George Bush did and meeting the minimum requirements required for an interceptor pilot. Interceptor pilot cannot maintain flight proficiency by simply attending the minimum number of drills required for good retirement year. Lt. Bush did not attend the June July August September October drills, he did not get the flying time necessary to maintain flight proficiency. In addition because he failed to take the physical in August 1972, he was grounded. Paragraph 2 - 29, Air Force manual 35-13 further requires that when ever a pilot fails to take their physical is a mandatory flight evaluation Board investigate and send to the Air Force. As you have noted 1776, that report is missing and was probably never completed. It was not optional but mandatory. why was this report not produced? What we have in Mr. Bush is an individual who did not want to serve in Vietnam but make it look as he did. So we used his family influence step ahead of 150 other people ahead of him to secure a position in Guard. When in the spring and summer of 1972 his Guard requirements interfered with his plan to conduct a political campaign in Alabama he simply didn't attend drills and did not complete his physical exam resulting in him being grounded. The taxpayers that hundreds of thousands of dollars to train George Bush as a pilot and he in accepting the commission pledged to serve for a specific period of time. He did not fulfill those requirements and was allowed to get away with it and have no punishment or consequences. President Clinton the vice president were much more straightforward they did want to serve and used deferremnts to avoid service. Mr. Bush on the other hand used the National Guard to avoid service in Vietnam. In fact on his application for the 147th fighter group he specifically said he did not serve overseas. If you believe the example set by our commander-in-chief is one you like to see emulated by the military of our country, you have very different set of standards that I do.

"If" all this is true then why has no one pressed charges. And don't try the dodge of because he's the president. Also, why are we just hearing it now? Again if it was true Kerry AND his cronies would have made DAMN sure to shout this from the rooftops. All this does is lead me to believe that the Lt Col in question was making a false accusation. And BTW Clinton did basically the SAME thing your accusiing Bush of.

Eighteen-year old Bill enters Georgetown University and registers for Selective Service, as required by law. His status as a full-time student earns him a deferrment. In his senior year, Bill receives a Rhodes Scholarship to study at Oxford University. In February of 1968, the Federal Government eliminates draft deferments for graduate students and Bill once again becomes eligible in March of that year. Clinton subsequently, though family and political connections, obtains a Navy Billet from the local naval reserve unit and temporary draft protection from the Garland County Draft Board, allowing him to start at Oxford - special treatment that was not uncommon for Rhode's Scholars of the day. Clinton completes his first term at Oxford in December, 1969, and is ordered to report for a physical in January, which he did. In April 1969, Bill was ordered to report for induction. However, delays in International mail delivery resulted in Clinton receiving his orders after the induction date had passed. By this time, he had begun his second term at Oxford. Regulations allowed him to complete the term, but he must report for induction by July 28, 1969. Once again utilizing extensive political connections, Clinton gets accepted into the University of Arkansas ROTC program on July 17, nullifying his draft notice. Clinton would not have to enroll until he completed basic training the following year. In the fall of '69, Clinton opts to return to Oxford, rather than enroll in the University of Arkansas Law School. While at Oxford, Clinton contacts the draft board to drop his ROTC deferment and return to active status. By this time, regulations had changed, allowing graduate students to complete their schooling before reporting for military duty. Clinton had a high enough draft number to virtually ensure he would not be called. While his conduct may have been immoral and was undoubtedly unethical, it was not illegal under the laws at that time and, thus, the conclusion drawn that he was the first pardoned criminal to serve as President is fallacious. He craftily manipulated the system, but he had the proper and legal right to do everything he did. He was never AWOL, never guilty of failing to report, was never a criminal under public law and, thus, was not among those pardoned by President Carter in 1977. The author of the chain letter above does not identify himself or his credentials, but I certainly hope he is not a lawyer, given the shoddy application of the law to the events on record. This chain has appeared to be the work of several different people, but every one of those credits has turned up to be a case of False Attribution Syndrome.

The answer (real answer not a silly insult) is it's getting harder every day to make excuses for the killing of innocent people.

---Then why excuse Hussein for killing masses of innocent iraqi's,i.e. genocide....are you against him being gone in a senseless war (i'm glad we went in their, we got rid of an evil man, and their were in a way WMD, the chemical weapons, mustard gas, ricin,etc.... found...[or something like that,forgive me if i am incorrect]


I don't believe that death is too high a cost to establish a government that believes in justice and rule of law for all individuals.

---Precisley