The worst kept secret in Korea

Remind me again why We didn't nip this one in the bud?

Because Clinton was President.  And he and Albright decided on a policy of appeasement instead of doing the right, and hard thing.  So he sold us down the river for his legacy, and then Carter had the audacity to go over there and call Kim Jung Mentally Il a noble stateman?

Uhm.....You're forgetting Ronnie and bush 1.0 not doing a damn thing and dubya cutting off their fuel oil deal.....NEXT!

The real question is, how could be go for 50 years building global dominance on the back of a nuclear arsenal and NOT expect other countries to view it as an easy path to prominence? This is the misbegotten love child of the USA and USSR, and it wants some attention from its parents.

p.s. Dr. Guy's response is typical. Everything was Clinton's fault. I heard Clinton was responsible for the AIDS virus and the extinction of the dinosaurs. Not to mention Clinton was the mystery shooter on the grassy knoll and was the guy who let in the Trojan Horse that fateful day at Troy.

I agree Myr. This problem has existed for a long time.

Bubba wouldn't have been on the grassy knoll. He admired JFK's "mack daddyness" too much!

I guess we're gonna do like Pearl Harbor and 9/11 and sit and wait until we get alot of people killed. Hey! It's the American way...

Uhm.....You're forgetting Ronnie and bush 1.0 not doing a damn thing and dubya cutting off their fuel oil deal.....NEXT!

Not.  Ronnie and Bush 1 did not have the problem, and Bush 2 called them on the cheating and told them unless they stop, the deal was off.  next?

Bubba wouldn't have been on the grassy knoll. He admired JFK's "mack daddyness" too much!

Fine, prove me wrong.  It will be interesting to see your efforts.

Bubba was just a bad president on the international scene. Name one sucess he had.  Just one.

I still blame the USA and USSR for this. Don't tell everyone you have the best candy in your dish and not expect them to want a piece.

The problem has existed since the 50's folks. EVERY president since Harry S. has ducked this one. I will give dubya his due for cutting off the oil shipments , but the fact of the matter is you can't nail this one on one party. It's been a problem for years now. We could have finished them in the late 80's early 90's. I kinda doubt the chinese would get into it as well. They see the North Koreans as much of a roadblock as we do. China is more of a capitalist state nowadays, and their support of the N. Korean dictatorship has cost them a lot of foreign $$$ that would have been invested in their exploding economy.

They would make a fuss, but i think in the end pretty much everybody would shed no tears. It's too late now. These morons can hit my house with a missle at will, and it scares the shit outta me.

Harry S. Where are ya when we need ya?

The problem has existed since the 50's folks. EVERY president since Harry S. has ducked this one.

Only in so far as a tin plated dictator was left in charge.  And there was not much the UN could do back then with a billion screaming chinese waiting to pour over the border.

The Nuclear threat is from the mid 90s on only.

the nuclear threat has been around ever since we dropped a couple of bombs on Japan

since that time, everybody's been wanting that big stick to wave

I agree with Myr here.

Given the fact they have always been a rogue nation, they have always aspired to have nuclear weapons. The CIA was aware of their research all the way back in the early 70's.

I really think we dropped the ball at the end of WW2. We should have maintained a military presence then. But as we all know China drove Chaing out in 49 and that's when the wackiness started. Combine that with giving in to the Soviets who had only token involvement with the Pacific War. Truman was dead set againt giving them anything in the reigon, but Churchill talked him into it. Next thing you know the north is invading the south. And here we are some 50 + years later.

Remind me again why We didn't nip this one in the bud?

I remember seeing a cartoon in the newspaper around the start of the Iraq war that had Bush in the back of a bomber. The pilot was asking if he wanted to drop some bombs on the NK nuclear reactors on the way to the gulf. The presidents answer was something akin to - "Hell, no! Those dirty cheaters would fight back!" HAHA!

The problem has existed since the 50's folks. EVERY president since Harry S. has ducked this one. I will give dubya his due for cutting off the oil shipments , but the fact of the matter is you can't nail this one on one party. It's been a problem for years now. We could have finished them in the late 80's early 90's. I kinda doubt the chinese would get into it as well. They see the North Koreans as much of a roadblock as we do. China is more of a capitalist state nowadays, and their support of the N. Korean dictatorship has cost them a lot of foreign $$$ that would have been invested in their exploding economy.

All very good points and I agree for the most part.

They would make a fuss, but i think in the end pretty much everybody would shed no tears. It's too late now. These morons can hit my house with a missle at will, and it scares the shit outta me.

Both the South Koreans and Japanese stand to have a lot to lose. While we've been certain for years that they have the weapons, we've also been fairly certain that they lack the long range delivery capability of these weapons. The launch of a missile over the main Japanese island a few years back was viewed to be, at best, a lucky failure by many analysts. So, I'd say if they felt threatened enough to put a missile in the air, if it did indeed reach and hit your home, that would likely be because they aimed/guided it so poorly. If it did come to military action, I don't think it will be NK that initiates it. Kim knows that his reign would be over if he started a fight. We would definetly end up with a situation that would be as bad or worse than Iraq, but his days would be over. So he has no motivation to go beyond saber rattling.

On the other hand, if he were attacked, he'd probably pull out all stops and launch everything, but as I said above, he'd probably 'hit' nothing further than Japan and that would be just because he could.

An additional point... while the 2.1 million person military, the artillery that could sustain constant firing for 24 hours, and the missiles (some of which they'd probably launch in Japans direction just because they can) scare me. I also worry about the 22 million starving refugees (and the SOF operatives that would be perfectly hidden among them) that would flood south.

Very good input chip. I should have asked a few of you soldiers who have actually been over there. Thanks!

One thing though chip. I have to wonder if the North Korean people would be as hostile as the Iraqis? They have suffered through famine and totalitarian rule for going on 60 years now.

I have to wonder if the North Korean people would be as hostile as the Iraqis? They have suffered through famine and totalitarian rule for going on 60 years now.

That is a good point. I think in time, the average North Korean would be happy to be fed, clothed, and generally allowed a more free lifestyle. The problem that we would run into with civilians at first would be the distrust and fear of Americans that is felt by a large portion of the NK population. 60 years of brainwashing, which is honestly what happens there, would be hard to overcome. Many NK defectors/agents have talked for years of the fear and distrust that has been built up to such a degree, that NK children honestly believe that Americans are the boogey man. The belief that the treatment they would receive at our hands would be truly worse than what they are undergoing now, is widespread, although, probably not as complete as it was 20 years ago. The sheer number of people that flee to China in hopes of getting to the US, SK, or anywhere, shows that this belief is weakening. So, overall, I think, whether through war or just a break down of the regime, if unification came to the Korean peninsula, we, along with the South Koreans, would be able to gain the trust from the average North Korean civilian.

The problem that we would have would be with the SOF agents. These agents are often selected by the party because of their loyalty and abilities. They would carry the war over, even after conventional threats were disarmed. They are trained to fight behind the lines, blend in, and carry on for the party, even if the party is 'gone'. They would cause as much havoc, if not more, than the insurgents we are seeing in Iraq. Most of them are highly trained military agents and they work in small cells very well.

I highly recommmend reading 'Tears of my soul' by Hyun Hee Kim. You can get it used on amazon fairly cheap and it's a quick read. While it won't give much insight specifically about NK and nuclear arms, it will provide an insight into how North Koreans are taught from childhood that the party and regime are the most important and central parts of their lives. Also, it provides a look at how they train their agents, how effective they can be, and how difficult it is for them to 'break' their brainwashing. That would be the obstacle we would need to get over.

>On the other hand, if he were attacked, he'd probably pull out all stops and launch everything, but as I said above, he'd
>probably 'hit' nothing further than Japan and that would be just because he could.

I believe they have a three stage Taepondong ICBM that can hit California ... In the end it really only takes ONE!

Why dont we try a more sensible tactic ...
LEAVE OTHERS ALONE AND MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS

"I believe they have a three stage Taepondong ICBM that can hit California ... In the end it really only takes ONE!"

To attack California, sure. The fact remains that we could turn North Korea into a Martian landscape without dipping into nukes. They, on the other hand, can't feed themselves without help from nations they threaten. It just screams superiority, huh?

This wasn't dealt with because of the "quagmire" thing. Americans can't stomach that kind of bloodbath anymore. Sadly, they can't seem to stomach anything else that would avoid it, either.

I wonder if they could stomach the mad midget Kim selling nuclear materials to anyone that wants them?

That's what i'm wondering Baker. It seems more likely to me than him actually firing an ICBM.

Also, the TAEPONDONG missle can hit further inland than that. THe CIA figures it can reach as far as the west slope of the rocky mountains. Which is where i live.

I'll try to find the article and post later.

Also, the TAEPONDONG missle can hit further inland than that. THe CIA figures it can reach as far as the west slope of the rocky mountains. Which is where i live.I'll try to find the article and post later.

You can find info about the weapons and ranges at globalsecurity.org. They have a wealth of open source and declassified info on countries from all over the world.

http://globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/index.html

What is not addressed, or at least I couldn't find it there easily, was the guidance systems. NK's guidance systems for their missiles are largely untested at the high range missile level. I think it would be more likely (although, I'm no rocket scientist and could very well be wrong), that an error in the guidance would cause a short crash into the Pacific than, say, hitting the wrong target at the right range. At least, at the stage they are at. I will try to find more info on this.

I wonder if they could stomach the mad midget Kim selling nuclear materials to anyone that wants them?

That's what i'm wondering Baker. It seems more likely to me than him actually firing an ICBM.

This is truly worrisome because it would be very difficult to stop this from happening. The fact that we are virtually powerless from stopping them from making and exporting drugs shows how easily they could sell WMD to other countries/organizations. I can't remember which drug, but NK is one of the world's leading exporters of something... heroin? opiates? meth? Carp, I can't remember off the top of my head. There was a bust a couple years back in Australia of one of their ships, though. But, we'd pretty much have to board and search every ship in and out of NK (NK's minisub fleet would still make this difficult at best) AND still get help/cooperation from China and Russia to cover the land routes to prevent this.

All in all, none of this really answers the question you really posed in the first place. Why didn't we do more to 'fix' this earlier. The obvious, and easy, answer (although, not really a good one) is that NK is much more complicated than Iraq.

I really think we dropped the ball at the end of WW2. We should have maintained a military presence then.

---thatoneguyinsic

This is easy to say now, but I know from hearing my great uncles and older family friends talk that, at the end of the war, everybody just wanted to go home. Everyone was tired of the military and the war. Patton, though, wanted to rearm the Germans and go after the Soviets since, in his opinion, we were going to have to do it later anyway. He was shot down, of course.
Churchill (and then Atlee) and Truman saw the Cold War starting, but the people wanted an end to things, so the military was reduced drastically, and the Soviets were aceded to for political reasons. Silly now, but hey....hindsight and all that.

The real question is, how could be go for 50 years building global dominance on the back of a nuclear arsenal and NOT expect other countries to view it as an easy path to prominence? This is the misbegotten love child of the USA and USSR, and it wants some attention from its parents.

----Myrrander

I agree with this, but WOW...he actually blamed the Russkies, too! Wonders never cease......

And Clinton and Albright DID screw up big time. The woman who refused to appease Milosevic on genocide was more than willing to let a nutjob like Kim Jong Il get a chance to possess the bomb. Go figure.