Palestine: That was now

When Israel was formed, the Jews Asked all to stay. But the Arab world instilled fear and loathing into the Arab people of Israel and told them to flea.

Not true at all.....

No. For almost 20 years, the Arab countries did nothing for the Palestinians, except use them as a whipping boy to whip up anger and hatred against the Jews.

More like 52 years.....

If The other Arab nations are serious about helping the Palestinians, now is the time to show it.

This is a responsibility for all of humanity, not just for Arab States.

Dr. Guy:

In looking at the formation of the Israeli state it is important to look in to the massacres a Deir Yassin--this wasn't simply some imagined collective memory of the Palestinian peoples.

The Palestinians called it Nakba (the catastrophe) for a reason. Israeli historian Benny Morris has done extensive research on the explusion and he cites massacres and rape.

In an recent interview Morris made the following two statements:

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."

"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

No. For almost 20 years, the Arab countries did nothing for the Palestinians, except use them as a whipping boy to whip up anger and hatred against the Jews. More like 52 years.....

I meant the time that the Arabs controlled the 'occupied areas'.  I know they still try, but now Israel is looked at as the occupier.

When Israel was formed, the Jews Asked all to stay. But the Arab world instilled fear and loathing into the Arab people of Israel and told them to flea. Not true at all.....

Those are his words, and since I had not been born, I can only take his word at that.  He is a native after all.

If The other Arab nations are serious about helping the Palestinians, now is the time to show it. This is a responsibility for all of humanity, not just for Arab States.

True, but I think much of the western world has been trying to get a resolution for many years.  Arabs have not lifted a finger.  In the end, it will probably be Israel and the US that helps nurture nationhood for them.  The rest will be angry for losing their suicide bombers.

Missed you Manopeace!  Glad you are back and posting!

In looking at the formation of the Israeli state it is important to look in to the massacres a Deir Yassin--this wasn't simply some imagined collective memory of the Palestinian peoples. The Palestinians called it Nakba (the catastrophe) for a reason. Israeli historian Benny Morris has done extensive research on the explusion and he cites massacres and rape.

All true Shades.  Yet This was not trying to atone for or excuse excesses of the past.  Instead it was, and indeed it hit me as, a condemnation of the Arab world for neglecting and using their Palestian brothers.

I have never read Morris, but I think he just slipped on the slippery slope.  As the cliche goes, in for a penny, in for a pound.  He has lots of pennies in without uttering another word.

Glad you are back and posting!

I'm not back yet...my puters going to the hospital tomorrow (Thursday) for a Windows transplant... I won't get it back till Sunday morning:'(..... Miss you guys too.

I'm not back yet...my puters going to the hospital tomorrow (Thursday) for a Windows transplant... I won't get it back till Sunday morning:'(..... Miss you guys too.

We'll keep a light on for you!  Come back soon.

have never read Morris, but I think he just slipped on the slippery slope. As the cliche goes, in for a penny, in for a pound. He has lots of pennies in without uttering another word.

You should definitely check out Morris--he's a interesting scholar with an unique perspective. I'm not saying that I completely agree with him--but he's draw some difficult conclusions when no one else would.

Those are his words, and since I had not been born, I can only take his word at that. He is a native after all.

I wouldn't take one person's word--I'd read a lot and then decide what series of events you think sounds most plausible. You are right--some of us are too young to have experienced it--but that doesn't mean we have to believe the first account of it that we hear.

all the other arab countries ever had to do to stop this debacle is cut a tiny portion of the countries that border Isreal and gift it to the"poor downtroden Palistinians" give them the means to live, help them along the way after all the palistinians are YOUR MUSLIM BROTHERS"

Reply By: ManopeacePosted: Wednesday, February 09, 2005Glad you are back and posting! I'm not back yet...my puters going to the hospital tomorrow (Thursday) for a Windows transplant... I won't get it back till Sunday morning:'(..... Miss you guys too.

miss ya my left leaning brother.... smiles for ya

all the other arab countries ever had to do to stop this debacle is cut a tiny portion of the countries that border Isreal and gift it to the"poor downtroden Palistinians" give them the means to live, help them along the way after all the palistinians are YOUR MUSLIM BROTHERS"

If only it were that simple, Moderateman.

I wouldn't take one person's word--I'd read a lot and then decide what series of events you think sounds most plausible. You are right--some of us are too young to have experienced it--but that doesn't mean we have to believe the first account of it that we hear.

Agreed.  But then before I delve into hyperbole, I will listen to an eye witness.  Besides, he is not condemning the palestians in any way except gullability.  And in that he is proved partially right.

If only it were that simple, Moderateman

So true Shades of Silver, so true!  But it does provide another perspective to your own experiiences.  It is not an excuse, it is a cause.

Reply By: shadesofgreyPosted: Thursday, February 10, 2005

If only it were that simple, Moderateman

It really is that simple if they wanted to help... after all america spends zillions to help strangers.

Agreed. But then before I delve into hyperbole, I will listen to an eye witness. Besides, he is not condemning the palestians in any way except gullability. And in that he is proved partially right.

Dr. Guy--I don't think he's an eye-witness.

As a child, I watched a Syrian play about the war of October 1973.

If he was a child when watching a play aobut 1973, there is no way he witnessed the formation of the state of Israel in 1948.

When you talk about the Palestinians being gullible, I assume you are referring to when the writer says:

The fact is that the Arab world warned the Palestinians against staying with the Jews...The question is: why did Arabs flee the area that became Israel? After all, the ones who remained in their homes still live there today and prosper.

Benny Morris' research proves that the Palestinians who fled were not being gullible--more than 400 Palestinian villages were destroyed and many, many Palestinians were massacred.

Having said that--it doesn't change the fact that post 1948 Arab nations have done little to assist the Palestinians. I will not deny that Arab nations need to step up to the plate. However, it is naive to believe that Palestinians will accept a little bit of other countries as an end to the conflict. Palestinians are seeking a return to "their" land--not just any land, but specifically the land that they fled in 1948 and 1967. Slicing off a bit of Syria or Jordan does not address the problem when they are seeking bits of Haifa and Jaffo. The Palestinians need to compromise--they can't expect to get it all back (or even a lot of it), but there is no hope for genuine stability and peace in the region if only the Palestinians are compromising. Why should Israelis get all and Palestinians get nought?

Why should Israelis get all and Palestinians get nought?

first off.... Israel was the jews first... then why should the jews have their own place??? ummmmm does holocaust ring a bell? and I nor anyone else suggested that the palistinian people should have to move anywhere... the are real muslims , christians and jews living side by side in Israel. peacefully and prosperous too.

first off.... Israel was the jews first

I'm not going to get into the argument of who was where first because everyone has a different take. The simple matter is that they are both there now. We need to solve the problem in the present, not in the past.

ummmmm does holocaust ring a bell?

It would be a shameful day if the Israelis decided to use the Halocaust as a bargaining tool to be disingenuine neogtiators with the Palestinians. If true peace and stability are desired, compromise must be just that--compromise. Not one side giving up all their desires to appease the other side.

and I nor anyone else suggested that the palistinian people should have to move anywhere

Then I obviously misunderstood what you meant when you suggested that:

all the other arab countries ever had to do to stop this debacle is cut a tiny portion of the countries that border Isreal and gift it to the"poor downtroden Palistinians" give them the means to live

To me, that means you think the surrounding Arab nations should chisel off a little bit and give it to the Palestinians. If that is not what you intended, I apologize for my confusion.

the are real muslims , christians and jews living side by side in Israel. peacefully and prosperous too.

There are. However, the Palestinians aren't hoping to live in a Jewish state. They want to live in a Palestinian state and the UN Convention on Human Rights grants them the right to national identity and self-determination.

That is not to say that they can't be peaceful neighbors. It just means that they should have the right to an independent nation.

Reply By: shadesofgreyPosted: Thursday, February 10, 2005

I'm not going to get into the argument of who was where first because everyone has a different take. The simple matter is that they are both there now. We need to solve the problem in the present, not in the past.

ok we will not fo there then.

It would be a shameful day if the Israelis decided to use the Halocaust as a bargaining tool to be disingenuine neogtiators with the Palestinians. If true peace and stability are desired, compromise must be just that--compromise. Not one side giving up all their desires to appease the other side.

I agree for the most part, but the jewish state was created {by the british i might add} to have a place for the jews to prosper and feel safe.

To me, that means you think the surrounding Arab nations should chisel off a little bit and give it to the Palestinians. If that is not what you intended, I apologize for my confusion.

your right that is exactly what I mean, what.s the big deal about that, if the arabs want peace so badly and want the palistinians to have their own homeland and state, why not?

There are. However, the Palestinians aren't hoping to live in a Jewish state. They want to live in a Palestinian state and the UN Convention on Human Rights grants them the right to national identity and self-determination.

Again I agree they should have their own state, but not push the jews out as they have seemed to want to.

"However, it is naive to believe that Palestinians will accept a little bit of other countries as an end to the conflict. Palestinians are seeking a return to "their" land--not just any land, but specifically the land that they fled in 1948 and 1967. Slicing off a bit of Syria or Jordan does not address the problem when they are seeking bits of Haifa and Jaffo. The Palestinians need to compromise--they can't expect to get it all back (or even a lot of it), but there is no hope for genuine stability and peace in the region if only the Palestinians are compromising. Why should Israelis get all and Palestinians get nought?"

The Jewish refugees from Arab countries, expelled by the Arabs and absorbed by Israel, received no help from the UN, and no recognition as "refugees". They now live in the territory that after the break-up of the Osmanic empire was allocated to the Jews.

They have received no compensation for their lost property and they certainly do not have a "right to return". In fact many Arab countries do not even allow Jews to cross the border.

The Israelis already got nothing while the Palestinians have recognition as refugees and UN help and are (apparently) allowed to attack Israel whenever they feel like it. There is no way the Israelis could get "all" and the Palestinians "nought". Not any more.

All we can hope for is for the Arabs to absorb the Palestinians just as Israel has absorbed Arab Jews. That's the solution that has worked for Israel when the Arabs forced it, and that is the solution that could work for the Arabs as well.

But for some reason what can be done to Jews (expell and settle elsewhere) is out of the question for Arabs. Recognition as refugees is another thing that appears to be a

privilege on non-Jews in the conflict. Arabs can be legal refugees even if they have never lived in the territory they are refugees from, the Arab Jews were not legal refugees when they had to flee their Arab homelands. And since they now live in Israel, they wouldn't need the status anyway. And neither would the Palestinians, had the Arabs behaved towards them like the Jews behaved towards on another.

Had the Jews stayd in the Arab countries, their destiny would likely have been the same as that of other non-Arab minorities in the Arab world, like the Kurds in Iraq, the Berbers in Algeria, and the Christians in Sudan.

When Poland occupied a part of Germany, they expelled the Germans living there. I was born in Germany, but I have no problem with that. Germany attacked and lost. Poland won. The same happened to "Transjordan", the difference being that Israel did not expell the Arabs living in the occupied land, instead they gave them autonomy, or try to.

So what exactly makes you think that Israel got all and the Palestinians got nought? I think the Palestinians already got more than any other people that ever lived in an occupied territory lost in a war that wasn't started by the victorious side.

A really good site offering two perspectives (Israeli and Palestinian) on the conflict is at http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2001/promises/timeline2.html

An event that is often overlooked is the conflict that took place within Jordan in 1970 between Palestinians and Jordanians. "Frustrated with and feeling threatened by the Palestine Liberation Organization’s involvement in Jordanian politics, King Hussein declares war on the PLO and imposes martial law. Three thousand people lost their lives in the fighting that ensued between the Jordanian and the PLO forces."

Palestinians are never going to be absorbed into other Arab countries, at least not willingly and not without a loss of identity.

There are. However, the Palestinians aren't hoping to live in a Jewish state. They want to live in a Palestinian state and the UN Convention on Human Rights grants them the right to national identity and self-determination.

True, but in the 50+ years the situation has existed, they have not tried to create one.  For the first 20, it may have been due to their arab brothers keeping them down, but since then, Israel has tried to negotite and set up a Aplestinian state.  However, just as you or I would not allow a serial killer to set up house next to ours, neither are the Israelis going to give them cart blanche as long as they maintian that the only good Jew is a dead jew.  There is hope now, but there was none due to Arafat and his insistence on all or nothing in the past.

The PLO with Syrian help did try to take over Jordan just as they tried to take over Israel.

Arafat was a dictator with no country. And everybody tried to help him get one.