Can you beat Maso without cheese?

I'm sure ray could pull off a maso with no cheese, but as for us humans, it'd be a long stretch

I (and I think many other people) have beaten maso without using those specific cheeses.

I think I'd have to do some things I consider cheesy--like bribing AIs to go to war with each other, for example. But I think I have a much broader definition of cheese than most people do. I consider the trading exploits to be a cheese, too, though that doesn't stop me from doing it.
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Actually I'd say I could beat it with the only major cheeses used being the bribing AIs to war with each other and the tech trading exploit.

A couple more handy cheese tactics, which I generally do not use, but which you might enjoy:

Gifting 1 influence point can sometimes improve relations (this is the biggest cheese out there imo, though it seems that most people don't use it)

Buying enemy starbases with cash, especially influence resource starbases. On a large map you can buy up all the influence resources, develop them to +68%, then watch all the AIs flip to you. Second biggest cheese at maso imo.

A little known exploit which I do use is that you can find out where the AIs locations are on the first turn, by checking influence in various sectors throughout the galaxy.
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I've never used alpha-strikes.

Resources become available as the game wears on, no need for this cheese.

The influence cheese is not needed, but it saves a lot of time. An alternate strategy is just build a lot of Antimatter missles and wipe out the A.I.'s navy and invade planets.

What's an alpha strike?

How is bribing the AI to fight each other cheese? Is it because they go to war too cheaply?

~SDC~

well, it is definately doable. Of your "cheese tactics", the only one i use is the influence one, but only to save time. By the time i start flipping planets, my military rating is usually 2-3x higher than the next closest AI (thanks to AMM.... i love these things). And using vincibles broader definition, i only use tech trading and the 1 influence point gifts. I do not bribe the AI to war with each other.

My understanding is its too destroy the race or make it too weak to fight back before it gets a chance to fight you.

~SDC~

which, in its purest form, consists of taking over all the AI's planets in one turn.

Forgot about this one. Yes that's a major cheese and I will admit I use it when I'm threatened. If you give the ai 1 influence instead of what they demand they seem to be happy.



Didn't know about this one. Probably easier to do the ship selling trick to destroy the starbase isn't it?



I knew about this but rarely use it as I've been playing on small maps and its usually pretty apparent where at least 3 of the 5 ais are just from the colors on the grid.



Could you give it a go? The only condition I'd add is that you don't use AMM's as they appear to be a pretty major cheese in and of themselves in that they overinflate your military rating and make killing other ships easier than it should since the ais don't use them. I think the hardest part would be to keep your military rating high enough that no body goes to war with you without using AMM's or the 1 influence trick.

By the way my definition of an alpha strike is wiping out or taking over all of an ai's planets in one turn so they never get a chance to attack you with the ships they have that are not in orbit.

Oh, and the other cheese I use is control-N.

I'd guess that I probably have already played a few games where I haven't used any those cheeses, except perhaps in the mop-up phase. Do you want me to maybe write up an AAR?



never use them anyway.



If you bribe everyone to go to war with everyone else, that means they have no one to trade with, except you. So they send all their trade to you and therefore you get good relations without even really trying. You need to do a bit of grovelling in the early game but otherwise there's no problem.
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I beat maso without using any of the three listed cheeses. I did, however, make use of the 1 Influence trick, although I could probably have given 50 or 100 each time I did it and still been okay.

The major sleazy tactic that I use in just about every game, though, is the simple variation on the Constructor/Resource grabbing theme: I park a few transports by systems that are being cleared of defenders by alien-to-alien warfare, and then I invade the planet when there's no defense left. Let the Torians do all the heavy lifting, I'll just sneak the planets away from under them and they're none the wiser.

Yes! . . . um, well mabye, aw shucks, I guess not .

LOL

Granted I have only played a couple of maso games, but how do you generate cash? The only way I can figure out how is through freighers/trade with starbase boosters. On maso I can't get cash for tech swapping like I could on the lower levels (1 bc per turn for 5 turns when swapping 6 techs LOL). Plus my economy is pretty lame compared those incredible AIs. How does one generate cash on maso so you can run the economy on high speed? Thanks.

Rick
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Heavens. When did these tactics become 'cheese'? I suppose Galciv could have a nightmare level where you were always automatically at war with every civ, had no influence, weren't allowed to own starbases and could only attack one planet per turn. It wouldn't be a fun game though.

Hmm, what is cheese?

My last Maso win (54K) I entirely failed every time I gifted missiles and ships near resources, forgot to keep up with the 1 influence point every 3 turns trick, and completely exhausted my economy bribing the AI's to stay at war. I withstood a random event war dispite having no ships when it was declared. I did use Party Palaces to win, but I certainly did not need to. I had excalibur tech and could have launched a traditional grinding military victory. I did replay the map after losing the first war, after I knew where my planets were.

I did not reload after the diplomatic incident event, nor when the flippin fundies took over my divided enemies, making them uniform and uniformly resistant to flopping, and making any attack sacrifice my huge trading income. I didn't reload after the #1 AI got the +8PQ on a dozen planets event.

I credit the extreme care with which this game was balanced. It is very difficult to have a run-away win (at maso), and entirely possible to win against random events and hugely stacked odds.

To me cheese is saving, colonizing to get an evil bonus, destroying the colony, saving, and doing it again!

1. I almost never use that. Most of the time, I can flip planets with just colony culture bombs.

2. I do alpha strikes all the time on smaller maps. It's by nature harder to alpha strike on big maps when AIs have many planets. I feel it would be tough winning on smaller maps fighting the "normal" way.

3. I no longer use the Shadow Hand tactic. Too tedious. But I vulture those vacated when they fight.



1. I've used 1 influence exploit for a few games but found that it basically guarantees victory so I've stopped.

2. I buy AI SBs in all my games, esp influence ones because I'm a culture bomber. That's also why I don't need multiple influence SBs.

3. I check out AI starting locations. Without this, it would simply mean more restarts.

Of course, I use Ctl-N.

~SDC~

An AAR would be sweet I find that I can keep up with the AI's in tech and influence without any cheese but as soon as I start building a military I fall behind in tech to a very large degree. If I don't build a military then I have to use the 1 influence trick to keep from being steamrolled. I haven't tried the bribing thing to keep everyone else at war though. Do you start this very early in the game or not until you hit midgame?



Hmm, smells a little cheesy but I guess its better than the 1 influence trick I don't think Ctrl-N is cheesy as I think it might be down right impossible to win some of the starting locations I've seen.



Yep I've used that, another pretty major cheese I forgot about, using the ais to do all your dirty work for you.



In my mind cheese is one of the following: Something very effective that the ai has no idea how to do or something that would be incredibly unrealistic in real life. As for galciv being fun, at any of the lower levels I think its possible for any player to learn how to win without using any of the major cheeses, I'm just trying to find out if its doable at maso level.



Ouch. I think on a smaller map this would be the death knell unless you were ready to really pump your influence.



Hmm, I was under the impression that culture bombing meant pumping culture SB's. How exactly do you colony culture bomb, Ray? Is it just building all the culture improvements possible?

Very interesting discussion so far guys. Keep it coming

Yes--far too cheaply--and the other AI doesn't blame you for it. I think it should lead to a major downgrade in relations with the other AI involved.



If you get everyone to go to war with everyone else--at least in the early game--then you're the favorite trading partner of every race. This gets you a lot of cash. If you want to buy starbases you might have to set spending to zero for a couple turns to save up money, but it's generally enough to run your economy and keep your spending high.

Another thing: you can often *very easily* get starbases from the weaker races as a byproduct of the tech trading exploit. If you cleverly trade for unique techs among the leaders, you can often get tech parity with the strongest AIs, which can put you ten or fifteen techs ahead of the weakest AIs in some circumstances. You can use all these techs to trade for starbases.

Also you can trade for cash from the minor races that pop up in the middle of the game.



There's an AAR at post #6 of the Maso Strategies thread in the GC Strategies forum. It's not really a teaching guide though, I was writing to the other maso players, and I wasn't exactly playing to win :/

I'm halfway through a couple games. Next game I play start to finish I'll take notes and turn it into a quick AAR. Maybe some of the other players can do that too.
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I seldom buy SBs with cash. Mostly with tech, either from tech-weak AIs like what vincible mentioned, or in the endgame when I get tech superiority.

I'm almost always ahead of the AI in tech somewhere in the 2190s. I attribute that to AIs wasting money on military wherelse I spend them on research.

Essex,

The multiple Party Palace (PP) influence attack is indeed very powerful but I don't like it because it's tedious constructor micromangement (better now with rally points). I usually go with getting influence resources and TGs/Wonders then projecting my influence through colonizing planets in target sectors. Colonizing is not offensive to the AIs while influence SBs are.

~SDC~

Cheese Tactics are nothing more thanfinding a weakness and Exploiting it. Its a time honoured thing done throughout history.. In ALL wars and Historical battles, these tactics have been used.. it doesn't mean that they are wrong and shouldn't be used.. One mans cheese is anothers discovery.

Imagine in medieval times.. All the men and battles would have been lost with a direct frontal attack on strongholds that were inpenetrable.. Until someone though of simply starving the people inside.. Fair enough it takes longer and it isn't fighting fair.. There is NO fair in war..

Cheese tactice to me are just Tactics that take advantage of the AI's weaknesses.. (and yes some work well on some levels and some that don't..) If you studied war (i havn't) then used some of those tactics they too could be considered cheese tactics.. IE: the Trojen horse,Starving,Culture,Wealth, are all considered cheesy..

When someone posts a way to get around things and weaknesses in the AI's game play its all considered as cheese.. because its a way around the traps that the programmers have programed in..or that they havn't seen.. Just like A general on the battlefield noticing that the enemy's troops are surviving through a single supply line.. then going out to block their supply line.. It makes sence.. rather than him loosing many men trying to take the ground and loosing their troops.

These tips have all been called cheese..

So the Answer to your Question... NO.. You can't win any war/battle without using cheese..

If someone tells you that if you go in with more ships and more powerfull ships that you'll wein the battle.. then that too is cheese.. as someone else told you how to do it. or you learn't it from other games,or history. So called Cheese is what it takes to win any battle..

Its totaly realistic.. as in any war there are flaws and weaknesses that can be and do get used and even overlooked.

It's not cheating.. cheating is when you do things that the program doesn't allow.. thus giving anomolous scores.. be it either writting a mod to give you super stuff, editing the save files. or if you can understand the matric and break it..

I'm tired of people thinking that anything that people find out about the game and share with others as cheating by using cheesy tactics..

I don't think Essex is condemning the use of cheese at Maso, Blue. He's just wondering whether it is possible to win the game at that level without them.

The question, like Maxti asked, is more what is cheese?

Everyone will have their own opinion on this. No point wasting time over it.
~SDC~
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I realize this.. Sorry for babbling on.. but I thought it would best explain my one line answer



It would be like ignoring everything that youve learned in life..

I just can;'t seem to find the right words to get accross what i'm trying to say

Now, now BlueSteel. You're just fishing for a group hug aren't you....

Of course you can not beat maso with exploiting some weakness (cheese). This is why I will never play maso. To me it is just the wrong way to play and is not what the programmers intended.

If AI worked correct you last only a few turns after meeting the first Alien race.

Go to a race try a bribe or trade, The Alien should go why should I go to War against them you are weaker or why should I trade; conquer your planets I get all the trade goods you have to offer.

Trade goods are not capturable afaik