Bahu Virupaksha Bahu Virupaksha

Iraq War Headed toward a point of no return

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Iraq War Headed toward a point of no return

Why the U S will not prevail in Iraq

from JoeUser Forums
The U S marines have only one rule in Iraq:shoot first clear the mess later. Any vehicle approaching within 100 meters of a US military humvee is peppered with bullets before questions are asked. Similarly any ordinary Iraqi with a cell phone risks having his guts ripped out by a splatter of M-16 gunfire. Deadly force has become the norm as for as the Anglo American forces are concerned. All this makes for a horrendous loss of civillian life. A 20 something U S soldier says proudly that "we waste people "if they come too close. Just imagine if men used to this level of violence return home. Since September 1 2004 when theAmerican soldiers came to Ramadi more than2000 civillians have been killed inthat city alone.Now the US army with logistical support from the British forces have a new tactic: they hide in wait near the bodies of dead Iraqis and when someone comes to bury the body, they open fire. I wish the commanders of such forces would read one of the outstanding plays of Greek literature, Antigone. They would know that for every one Iraqi they "waste" 10 more will take their place. It is for this reasonr the deadly force is unlikely to yield the desired results.

So far the steady flow ofcasualities has only proved that the American civil society has overcome its distaste for body bags. There is as yet no hope of a settlement that would bring peace with honor.

The run up to the elections as we have always known is proving extremely costly. In the last two days more than 36 Iraqis have dies in bombings, 21 US soldiers have died along with the Allawi regime governor of Bagdad. The projected Sunni Shia divide is not materialising and Iraqis are showing everyone thatthey matter .
politics
26,869 views 77 replies
Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top
COL Gene, aside from spamming me with an advert for your book, you have also proved yourself an ignorant peasant.


The entire world belongs to England, or at least the 25 pc we controlled during empire, therefore the entire world is Christian land occupied by terrible infidels.
Reply #52 from JoeUser Forums Top

Sometimes one must put his money where his mouth is


hitparade, i was calling into question the assertion of successful regime change rather than asking how to achieve it. 

having said that, it's going to take a lotta 'death squads' to wipe out an estimated 30-40,000 insurgents (the number im hearing batted around now) even if only 1/3 or 1/5 are currently active fighters.   if your mafia theory is valid, maybe we can buy em off?

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Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #49 By: Sir Peter Maxwell (Anonymous) - 1/9/2005 11:11:16 AM
Iraq was a heretical country, thus an attack was justified. I was quite surprised that the Pope was against the war. But then again, as a devout English Protestant, I know that the papists are evil anyway.


Not evil, just grossly misinformed.
Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #50 By: dabe - 1/9/2005 11:15:16 AM
All I can say is that it is hard to justify the merits of staying in Iraq if I was completely against the invasion in the first place. Having said that, I understand that if we just leave, we lose. The Iraqis lose. Hell, they've already lost. Big time! The neocons created a quagmire that has cost irreparable damage to Iraqis, including lives lost, art treasures lost, lifestyles lost, etc. It will take years to clean up the mess. But the mess cannot be cleaned until we cut our American losses and leave. Yes, there will be a bloodbath, but there is a bloodbath already there. However, it will become a bloodbath of their own making rather than ours. And, very likely, the government that will result from this mess will be yet another Islamist regime. Unless the Americans stay forever to prop up a puppet "democracy", the void will be filled with terrorists. That, in and of itself, means we lost the war.

Maybe the bloodbath, via civil war, will sort things out quicker. I dunno. That seems so cruel. But, maybe then, American can start paying out war reparations that it undoubtedly owes to the Iraqis. We broke it. We own it. We are responsible for the mess. And I doubt that Iraqi oil will pay for the recovery. Not if greedy neocon contractors have any say in the matter.

I really do think Iraq was a lost cause from Day 1. Everything thing else is just a matter of figuring out how to get out of there and save face. That is all.


If we cut and run now, every American life lost in Iraq will have been for nothing.
Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top
Not evil, just grossly misinformed.


We English threw the Papists of Rome out of our country because they are decadent, and evil. How can the Anti-Christ (The Pope) be misguided? He knows what he is up to old chap.
Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think quite frankly the noise raised over the american lives lost in Iraq is a little bit much. I mean come on, more people die each month due to fast food related problems than will during the entire "war", and I use that term loosley considering it is supposed to be over, and to think that 100 times or more INNOCENT Iraqi lives have been lost. Now, I don't want to see anyone die, but people (especially the invading force) die in war, so get used to it. I just like it because it helps detract from the wars movement, and of course I object to the war for more than just the soldier's lost lives. What people should be concerned about is soldiers dying for something that they don't beleive in, something not important, something based on a personal agenda, people should be worried about the soldiers lives being used in pawns in a game of chess between George Bush and some other unknown.

Now, Sir Peter, I am glad that people take great lenght to distance themselves from your garble of physcotic nonsense you spout out, because you are to England what terrorists are to the middle east. You are to England what Jerry Folwell , or actually worse, is to America. The pope is rightly against the killing of people, no matter what the reason. Now obviously, if we look into history we see horrible acts commited by so called missionaries, but currently the Catholic church is one of the most peacefull churches.
Reply #57 from PolMach Forums Top
What makes you think we're not already fighting Iran (Syria, and other terrorist sponsoring nations also)? There is a lot at stake for terrorist nations (especially the Jihadist types) in Iraq. To think that they are merely sitting around rooting for "their" side would be grossly naive.


I fully believe that some of their nationals are attacking us in Iraq as part of the insurgency. Its another thing though to say we need to attack their territory and be able to control it. We leave it in the same anarchy that we left Iraq after combat was over there, we will have the same insurgency issue. Its taking 120K + troops to sort of control Iraq and we aren't able to do that. To take on Iran or Syria, we would have to pull those troops out of Iraq and leave that country to the insurgents. Additionally the armies of Iran and Syria have not been depleted already as were those of Iraq. Its also not inconceivable that were we to invade another country that they may have allies from other countries that do not wish to see the entire region converted to a US satellite nation. The ones being naive are the ones that think that we can just militarily take over the entire region with the current military we have. If we have to take down Iran, we don't have the strenth to do so and hold the territory.
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top
sir peter

You are so full of C___ If it were not for the US, you woluld be ruled by Germany today. We also kicked you A.. in the late 1700's if you remenber your history.
Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top
I guess Bush did have proof that Saddam had them at one point. His daddy and Rummy kept the receipts.


Do you have a detailed description of all the "weapons" that were "sold" to Saddam?




Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply By: drmilerPosted: Saturday, January 08, 2005You know Bahu I would like to thank you. I have been labeled a butthead by more than a few on this list. And to be frank I probably deserve the label. But you are working out to be a bigger one than me and as such it pulls the heat off me. So type your foolish head off.


one yer notta butthead.............. two your a kind man with strong opinions. and anyone pointing out yer "rectally head challenged" should be sued.
Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply By: whoman69Posted: Saturday, January 08, 2005ok I am going to endevor to be succient and nice at the same time'now we know you're lyingTHE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD THOUGHT SADDAM had weapons of mass destruction......... Bush did not lie ..... I respect your right to not like bush , to disagree with bush but FOR GODS SAKE MAN GET OVER IT........and you just proved the lie in your next statement. you are the one who needs to get over it. where are the weapons? you bought into a bluff. and now you're buying into a lie. don't give me some crap about how they went to syria. we mapped every inch of iraq with satellites and there has been no evidence. Every reason for going to war has been debunked, only the lies and the dead remain.


ummmmmm da weapons is in yer tushy for useing thatr arguement assa reason..
Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top
I suppose the huge voter turnout in the Palestinian elections today is further proof of SPM's thesis that "democracy is totally alien to the human mind."

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top
If we cut and run now, every American life lost in Iraq will have been for nothing.


And, their lives lost if we stay and kill more people and have more soldiers killed makes it more worthwhile? Your logic is ridiculous. Unfortunately, I really do believe that the lives lost is a terrible waste, one for which the Bush neocons should be held accountable for. I'm sorry if that appears to undercut anyone's sense of purpose, but wasted lives are wasted lives. The lives lost have been for nothing. At least, not for anything really noble, except for what the soldiers themselves were. They were noble. They fought and sacrificed themselves very nobly. But, for nothing. It's so sad. History will not treat Bush and his neocon criminals kindly. They are yet one more stain on humanity.
Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top
eply By: DraginolPosted: Friday, January 07, 2005I hate to tell you this but the US has already prevailed in Iraq. Moving the goal posts until one can re-define victory into an impossible context may make some people feel better, but the reality is, the US went in to overthrow the Saddam regime.


If my memory serves me right the USA went into Iraq in search and destroy mission regarding WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. When that turned out to be a hollow pretext for war regime change was brought out as a justification. While dealing with Big Powers we must never make the mistake of assuming their sanctimonious hum bug to be the truth. If Bush had asked for a regime change then UN resolution 1420 does not mention it. In any case, the USA has killed more civillians in the last 16 months than the total score of Saddam in 20 years. Just today we heard of a house in Mosul being "wasted". How long do the people of Iraq have to live in fear of two ruthless killing machines.
Reply #65 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #65 By: Bahu Virupaksha - 1/10/2005 1:01:08 AM
eply By: DraginolPosted: Friday, January 07, 2005I hate to tell you this but the US has already prevailed in Iraq. Moving the goal posts until one can re-define victory into an impossible context may make some people feel better, but the reality is, the US went in to overthrow the Saddam regime.


If my memory serves me right the USA went into Iraq in search and destroy mission regarding WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION


That is where your memory is faulty. WMD's were only *one* of the reasons!


In any case, the USA has killed more civillians in the last 16 months than the total score of Saddam in 20 years


Bring proof or change your statement.
Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #58 By: COL Gene - 1/9/2005 5:57:41 PM
sir peter

You are so full of C___ If it were not for the US, you woluld be ruled by Germany today. We also kicked you A.. in the late 1700's if you remenber your history.


My God COL!!! I think the world must be coming to an end. We actually agree on something.
Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #22 By: whoman69 - 1/8/2005 12:13:11 PM
ok I am going to endevor to be succient and nice at the same time'


now we know you're lying

THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD THOUGHT SADDAM had weapons of mass destruction......... Bush did not lie ..... I respect your right to not like bush , to disagree with bush but FOR GODS SAKE MAN GET OVER IT........



and you just proved the lie in your next statement. you are the one who needs to get over it. where are the weapons? you bought into a bluff. and now you're buying into a lie. don't give me some crap about how they went to syria. we mapped every inch of iraq with satellites and there has been no evidence. Every reason for going to war has been debunked, only the lies and the dead remain.


Your the one buying into the myth. Have you so soon forgotten the 23 high performance MIG jet fighters they found buried in the sand outside of Bagdahd?
Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #22 By: whoman69 - 1/8/2005 12:13:11 PM
ok I am going to endevor to be succient and nice at the same time'


now we know you're lying

THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD THOUGHT SADDAM had weapons of mass destruction......... Bush did not lie ..... I respect your right to not like bush , to disagree with bush but FOR GODS SAKE MAN GET OVER IT........



and you just proved the lie in your next statement. you are the one who needs to get over it. where are the weapons? you bought into a bluff. and now you're buying into a lie. don't give me some crap about how they went to syria. we mapped every inch of iraq with satellites and there has been no evidence. Every reason for going to war has been debunked, only the lies and the dead remain.


Your the one buying into the myth. Have you so soon forgotten the 23 high performance MIG jet fighters they found buried in the sand outside of Bagdahd?
Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top

King Bee wrote: " if your mafia theory is valid, maybe we can buy em off? "

At this point, I'd prefer killing them.... The death squads will target the leaders. This will be very effective.

At any rate, it is not so much a "mafia" theory, as it is a "thug" culture theory. I've said that to focus only on Islamic totalitarianism as the fuel driving the insurgency misses the mark. The thug culture is born out of a mindset that believes in the proverb "power is protection & protection is power." This speaks volumes about the nature of that society.

Before the invasion, the Batthist party was not the exclusive power in Iraq. It merely had the biggest guns, and got to wear the label of state. Thugs also had power in Iraq. Their power ran - so to speak- parallel to the government's; thugs largely do their business in the shadows.
Now that the Batthist party has been forced from power, they also operate in the shadows.
Hence, we have three distinct groups working together in the shadows: Bathist, thugs, and fundamentalist. Understand your foe and exploit his weaknesses.

Money is power. Earlier on, had the thugs been offered say... one third of Iraq's oil profits? If a big shot thug orders the kids & men in his neighborhood to stand down, they would follow his order: faling to understanidng this has caused 1300 plus dead Americans.

Reply #70 from JoeUser Forums Top
The ONLY reason we should have gone into Iraq was to make America safer. That is not what has happened and thus the Bush policy is a failure. If Iraq truns into another anti America-West government when the dust settles, we loose a second time.
Reply #71 from JoeUser Forums Top
In any case, the USA has killed more civillians in the last 16 months than the total score of Saddam in 20 years. Just today we heard of a house in Mosul being "wasted". How long do the people of Iraq have to live in fear of two ruthless killing machines.


I'd like to see proof of that.
Reply #72 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reading many of the comments here leads be to belive that the people who coined the phrases 'There's a sucker born everyday' and 'People are generally stupid' really has some truth about it.

At Central Michigan University there has been a debate raging now for nearly 2 decades over the 'Chippewa' mascot name. We dont have any 'Chippewa' logo or anything such (thanks liberal whackos). The logo is a 'Flying C' as it were, and the name is the only thing used. Every year we get a new batch of 18 year old kids who latch onto the liberal mind(fuck)set and join in arms in protesting the use of the name and demand a change. What's highly irritating is that EVERY YEAR (like clockwork) the papers have a story about it, and NO ONE bothers to ask the dang Chippewa tribe what it's views are. This past year was different, however. CMLife, the local student run newspaper - which has several moderate editors - decided to go out to the reservation and ask the tribe officials what they thought of it. Shockingly (sarcasm) they had no issue with the use of the name and stated that they were actually proud that such an institution was using their name. The Tribe official who was interviewed also stated that if they had ever had issue with it, they would have brought it up. THEY WOULD HAVE BROUGHT IT UP.

So all you fruitcakes who are making all these wild claims about what is being done over there - have any of you bothered to go over and talk to these people? Has there been a comprehensive survey of these people to find out WHAT THEY THINK?

On a final note, you arabs in Iraq need to figure out what the hell you want. Youre like teenagers trying to figure out if you really want to date Bobby Teenager, or go out with Joe Sixpack. OMGBBQ Who do I take to the dance?!

You either accept the US's help, or assemble and cry out for our expulsion. And people, 100 people out of an entire country is hardly a majority. If you WANT help from the U.S. then get behind them, stop being panty wastes and fight against your own people who are DOING THE KILLING. I would hardly assume that being of Arab decent means having a lack of rational thought. If people are bombing your election booths, wouldnt it make sense to stop them?
Reply #73 from JoeUser Forums Top
Tell me Andrew

Who should we be asking ?

the dead US marines?
the seriously wounded and mamed marines?

maybe the countless dead Iraqis?
maybe the seriously wounded and mamed Iraqis?

maybe the mothers who have lost sons, daughters, husbands, children?

So who exactly should we ask Andrew?

I suspect if you woke the dead or spoke to the remaining living they would answer that to replace one fear with another; to jump from one fire to another, is quite frankly, an unacceptable proposition.

I am sure they would ask that you assist them by providing a viable alternative that has sufficient foresight, preparation and planning to ensure a successful outcome.

The intentions of the senators and the people that voted to go to war, were honourable. Unfortunately their support was based on misinformation and propoganda. So sadly, the good and honourable intentions of the American people have been laid to waste and ridicule by an inept administration!
Reply #74 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh andrew, I see what you want me to do. You want me to hop into my fighter jet parked out back, sneak into Guantamano Bay, sneak past all the armed gaurds, and candidly ask the people if they are being tortured. You want me to fly into the heartland of Iraq, you want me to fly to Osama Bin Laden, and ask him what his motives are. Never mind the fact that he has stated the fact that he thinks we are evil for medling with their business. Never mind he says we are evil for our adultrated support of Israel. Never mind what countless journalists and writers have recorded. Instead, lets attack some people! This reminds me of a tatoo mentioned in Law and Order. Business is good on one arm, killing is our business on the other. Thats you. You like to snipe at people while you sit there with an empty brain.
Reply #75 from JoeUser Forums Top
What a sad, sad state of affairs.

Ask the people of Iraq of course. My post was aimed at nothing more than stating that those with concerns should be asking the people of Iraq what they truely want from this point, rather than making assumptions on their behalf.

Instead of taking what I said into consideration, I get two lovely passionate flaming posts in reply.

sandy2, go have some hot tea, relax and chill. Your ramblings are nothing more than a canned response to a post which must have threatened you in some fashion. Your reply had nothing to do with my post.

You two are missing the point of my post completely.

The United States Armed Forces are now a force in Iraq. Nothing can undo that. Rant all you like about why it happened and how evil and unjust it is. Rant until your heart's content. But nothing is going to change that fact.

I'll now digress. Feel free to 'tear me to shreds verbally' as it were. I'm much more interested in rational, polite debate than overly passionate flame-bait.