The Origins of the Universe

Ok, so it always seems to come down to this one thing with religion and then the religous nuts argue that you just have a belief too, just as they do and you can't be sure you're any more right because of the old chicken and egg.

Chicken and Egg theory... CONTRADICTION.

No matter what belief you have, big bang started the universe or God did, you still have the chicken and the egg. If God created the universe, who created God?

Occam's Razor comes into effect here. (And Christians fall into it by accident with their answer to "who created God?")

The Big Bang theory leaves out "who/what created the matter?"

The answer of course, that is completley non-contradictory and thus correct and the simplist answer (especially when I get to my article disproving the concept of God) is that the energy (matter is a by-product of energy) has always existed.

We have a hard time with infinity. At least in any other context than God, as human beings, but the fact still remains that it is the only answer the question that is non-contradictory. And Christians, saying God did, and then saying God has always been there, is illogical and overly complex, and the universe doesn't do complex.

So be happy, the universe has always existed and will always exist in some form or another. Don't bother trying to figure out who/what created all of this, cause the answer is, no-one/nothing did.

Makes life much easier, and far more logical and you don't get that "god I feel small" feeling every time you think about the topic any longer :)
12,094 views 29 replies
Reply #1 Top
Dude I am a bigbang sort of guy but your own article undoes your argument. You say that matter always existing is fine but God always existing isn't? Neither one has any more logic than the other.
Reply #2 Top
If you check his other blog in philosophy he also claims
  • that he can scientifically disprove the existance of God,
  • accuses people like me of "evil",
  • states that the only thing keeping us from knowing the entire past and future of the universe (and the data concerning every atom and particle therein) is the speed of computers and our lack of understanding of quantum mechanics
  • "Worst case, the universe is 1.4 billion years old, not 14 billion years old." Not infinite, apprently...


a good quote from the blog in question, praising "objectivity" of all things...

"One thing you should think about: People in the middle ages thought like you do. That's why they were called the dark ages. People in Russia thought like socialists do who answer the stupidity of your base belief system. That's why 50 million of them died for your false ideal. And finally, people still think like you do. Fortunately, people like me exist, who embrace rational thought, who believe that the universe is knowable and that we will inevitably know all there is to know about the universe and reality. Hence why we have cell phones, computers, TVs, indoor plumbing, oh, and actually don't die from everything under the sun.... (reply #25)"


A kook in a stolen lab coat. Nothing else to see here. Move along...
Reply #3 Top

im in the process of pitching a film that's essentially a prequel to the book of genesis in which god tells the story behind the creation thru narrated flashback recreations--this is obviously gonna be tricky recreating the precreating --of actual events leading up to 'in the beginning..." 

based on my research, as well as some preliminary interviews (ive finally been given unlimited access to him and his contemporaneous notes--altho the meaning of that term is tweaked somewhat by the fact this was pre-time).  god likes taking lunch at one of those noisy thai places on venice blvd a couple blocks from the studio.  better that than jerry's deli  (where the waitresses have learned better than to ask for 'tips').  im not at liberty to divulge much but it was an indirect result of a contractual dispute in which the other parties wound up with badly burnt fingers (obviously we all know whose fingers werent burned but youll have to wait and see the pic for the rest of the scoop) .

Reply #4 Top
God is a contradiction in terms. You can't define God without circular references or contradictory points of view. (hence why Baptists love to make the rule that you cant' argue about God with anything other than the authorized books of the bible... otherwise known as a circular reference)

For God to Exist (and I'll get to proving this later) you would have to have a paradox. There's no such thing as a paradox, and if there was, the unvierse would anilate itself.

If the energy always existed, then the big bang was simply one stage in the existance of that matter, which has already existed. To suggest that God created the energy is disengienous and contradictory by definition of the concept. There is no contradiction in what I said and it follows all of the axioms of the universe. Occam's razor applies, even if you don't believe that I can disprove the existence of god.
Reply #5 Top
If you check his other blog in philosophy he also claims

* that he can scientifically disprove the existance of God,
* accuses people like me of "evil",
* states that the only thing keeping us from knowing the entire past and future of the universe (and the data concerning every atom and particle therein) is the speed of computers and our lack of understanding of quantum mechanics
* "Worst case, the universe is 1.4 billion years old, not 14 billion years old." Not infinite, apprently...

in it's current form from the point of the big bang (which doesn't at all suggest how the energy of the big bang got there, just that it happened).

So of course you still have yet to disprove anhything I've said Bakerstreet.




a good quote from the blog in question, praising "objectivity" of all things...

"One thing you should think about: People in the middle ages thought like you do. That's why they were called the dark ages. People in Russia thought like socialists do who answer the stupidity of your base belief system. That's why 50 million of them died for your false ideal. And finally, people still think like you do. Fortunately, people like me exist, who embrace rational thought, who believe that the universe is knowable and that we will inevitably know all there is to know about the universe and reality. Hence why we have cell phones, computers, TVs, indoor plumbing, oh, and actually don't die from everything under the sun.... (reply #25)"


A kook in a stolen lab coat. Nothing else to see here. Move along...


And why would that be? Because again I'm right? There is a direct correlation between the rise of Christianity and the fall of reason and the start of the dark ages. There is also a direct correlation between the rediscovery of reason and the rise out of the dark ages.

Further there is a direct correlation between socialism and mass murder. Hitler and Stalin are just the two most extreme examples because they weren't hipocrits and actually acted the way they believed instead of saying one thing and then doing another, or worse, applying their ideals to everyone but themselves.

So again, I'm right, you're wrong, and you have no proof to defend your pathetic ideals, and your contradictory positions. Show some proof that I'm wrong Bakerstreet. Find a contradiction, find a paradox, find anything that I've said that contradicts itself of you can show is untrue.

Or better yet, demonstrate, without contradiction how your belief system can work. I would really like to see from you, how subjective beliefs and socialism can be non-contradictory. Demonstrate that, and I'll be really impressed. You might even convert me, because I embrace the truth even if I don't like it. So come on, you've got the opertunity, you can teach me who's right and who's wrong, and you can demonstrate the superiority of yoru belief system. All you have to do is think a little and write it out for all to see.

Problem is you can't and you know it. Almost 300 years of philosophers (starting with Kant) have tried and failed. You certainly don't have a chance.

So until you prove it, shut up, go away and be with your freak friends that want to believe that everything is a mystery and enjoy ignorance. The rest of us will improve the world and make it a better place. And if at all possible, we'll make sure people like you don't get to participate in it, because to do so would be theft on your part (i.e. Evil as I said before)
Reply #6 Top
Before you start swinging Occam's razor around, maybe you should look into his own theological ideas. To him natural theology was impossible. You are shamefully trying to sew philosophy into your science and smooth it over so no one notices. You are espousing a belief system and calling it raw science.

The fact that you over and over try to impose a priori scientific thought to theology shows how bereft of real understanding you are. No real scientist would go round spouting absolutes the way you do. You take supposition, assumption, and call it quantitive fact.

Stop trying to play the objective mind. The stances you've taken, the great bounds you make in the endeavor to make your points, your obliviousness to your own bias, show that you are anything but objective. I have spoken with people on both ends of the spectrum, and frankly you resemble snake-handling Fundamentalists far more than the voice of pure science. You use the language of science to promote philosophy. That is disingenuous at best.
Reply #7 Top
"The rest of us will improve the world and make it a better place. And if at all possible, we'll make sure people like you don't get to participate in it, because to do so would be theft on your part (i.e. Evil as I said before)"


*boggle* Lemme quote that again...

"The rest of us will improve the world and make it a better place. And if at all possible, we'll make sure people like you don't get to participate in it, because to do so would be theft on your part (i.e. Evil as I said before)"


'nuff said, I think. This is an unbalanced, frankly bigotted mind that has no business effecting change or pretending to guide anyone else's belief system. The tossing around of "evil" and the ungilded hate that oozes from this blog and the other is deeply, deeply troubling. He derides hitler and stalin and then writes in a tone that is eerily remenscent of them...

This is our objective scientist, motivated by reason, logic. You're a sick man.
Reply #8 Top
Be calm, all; everyone knows that philosophy is the handmaiden of theology, precisely because it cannot and should not engage in attempting to prove or disprove the existence of the Almighty.
Reply #9 Top
"Be calm, all; everyone knows that philosophy is the handmaiden of theology, precisely because it cannot and should not engage in attempting to prove or disprove the existence of the Almighty."


Agreed. What is worse, though, is philosophy dressed up as science and used to teach hate and intolerance. To deride Hitler and Stalin and then use the *exact* tactic is frighteningly deviod of self-reflection.

Sorry, Steve, but it is difficult to deal with someone who claimes to be governed by objectivity and logic, and who then calls me evil and blames all of mankind's wrongs on me and my "freak friends". Either he doesn't understand the concepts he is espousing, or is deranged and is unable to judge himself by his own standards...

The troubling fact is he seems to understand the concepts, so I am left only with the second option.
Reply #10 Top

You should publish this in scientific journals since it's obviously true. You'll make history!

Reply #11 Top
"You should publish this in scientific journals since it's obviously true. You'll make history!"


Better yet, he and his kind could don their jackboots and "make sure people like you (me) don't get to participate" in society and win by default. Where have I heard that before? Surely it wasn't from the likes of Hitler and Stalin, since he despises them so. Or maybe it isn't their tactics he despises, rather their non-objective ideologies...

bothersome.
Reply #12 Top
Hey guys! Here's an idea! If you hate philosophy so much, stop making useless, hateful posts in the philosophy forum! See, some people actually like to discuss the different philosophies instead of attacking the people who present them. Everyone here seems intelligent, so why don't you stop calling each other stupid and evil and start discussing the topic. In case you've forgotten, this article isn't entitled: "Let's Bash John Galt!'. I'm pretty sure its actually about the origins of the universe. I completely admit that I tend to get frustrated about things I believe strongly in, and maybe this post will only make things worse. If so, I apologize. I also apologize for the sarcasm I just used. Just keep in mind that name calling will get you nowhere. Some of the things you guys have written are really interesting and deserve a good debate, but other things are really pointless and harsh. Keep attacking the philosophies, not the people.

BakerStreet, keep in mind that I'm not taking sides or calling anyone evil, but I think JG is right in that you haven't ever actually showed why he's wrong. No matter how many times you say that he is stupid and evil and wrong, it doesn't make it true, and it doesn't disprove anything.

And I also don't understand why you are complaining that he uses science and philosophy together. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Science has to be used to support theories. Everything is science. Observing the world around you is science. Understanding it is science. If you ingore those things, you can't really create philosophies. And of course philosophy can be used in bad ways. That doesn't make philosophy itself good or bad, though. It just makes certain ones bad. If you think about it, everyone uses philosophy. Any school of thought on a particular issue can be called a philosophy. So all the stuff you guys are talking about is philosophy. But lets stop arguing about the ways to argue. Unless you want to start a new article on theology and science and philosophy. Actually, you should do that. It sounds interesting.

That said, I think you guys are just a little too angry about nothing much. I think you both have some valid points, and it would be awesome everyone would be more calm when posting on the actual topic at hand.
Reply #13 Top
Hey guys! Here's an idea! If you hate philosophy so much, stop making useless, hateful posts in the philosophy forum! See, some people actually like to discuss the different philosophies instead of attacking the people who present them. Everyone here seems intelligent, so why don't you stop calling each other stupid and evil and start discussing the topic. In case you've forgotten, this article isn't entitled: "Let's Bash John Galt!'. I'm pretty sure its actually about the origins of the universe. I completely admit that I tend to get frustrated about things I believe strongly in, and maybe this post will only make things worse. If so, I apologize. I also apologize for the sarcasm I just used. Just keep in mind that name calling will get you nowhere. Some of the things you guys have written are really interesting and deserve a good debate, but other things are really pointless and harsh. Keep attacking the philosophies, not the people.


You do understand that John Galt hasn't exactly been the non-offensive respectful person in his posts right? True, that doesn't justify us bashing him (and I personally wasn't bashing him, I do think he should try to get it published if he's so positive and 100% sure it's objectively true), but it's pretty hard to carry a decent discussion with somebody who doesn't facilitate it with the proper respect.

BakerStreet, keep in mind that I'm not taking sides or calling anyone evil, but I think JG is right in that you haven't ever actually showed why he's wrong. No matter how many times you say that he is stupid and evil and wrong, it doesn't make it true, and it doesn't disprove anything.


I'm no philosophical genius, but the burden of proof lies on the one who made the claim. Why should Bakerstreet disprove what John Galt hasn't proven? Not only does his claim that the universe is infinite but at the same time expanding contradicting, but also saying something is based on "Occam's Razor" does not make not automatically make it true.

And I also don't understand why you are complaining that he uses science and philosophy together. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Science has to be used to support theories. Everything is science. Observing the world around you is science. Understanding it is science. If you ingore those things, you can't really create philosophies. And of course philosophy can be used in bad ways. That doesn't make philosophy itself good or bad, though. It just makes certain ones bad. If you think about it, everyone uses philosophy. Any school of thought on a particular issue can be called a philosophy. So all the stuff you guys are talking about is philosophy. But lets stop arguing about the ways to argue. Unless you want to start a new article on theology and science and philosophy. Actually, you should do that. It sounds interesting.


Sure, you could call anything science, but if you do, then don't expect to be taken seriously on matters of science. For one thing, there is a scientific method.
If philosophy really does say "Everything is science, and the scientific method is unnecessary" then, well, philosophy isn't science nor is anything based on such philosophy. It's just masturbation.
Reply #14 Top
Molly: there's nothing wrong with using philosophy with science, as long as you say so before hand and don't pretend your final result to be objective. If you look back on Hitler and others, though, you'll find that there IS something wrong with taking personal philosophy and CALLING it science, i.e. making people believe a subjective belief because you lend it the guise of objective "Truth". Hitler had tons of scientists measuring people's heads, talking about the shape of people's noses, making evolutionary trees, etc., and in the end he took his subjective beleifs and lent enough pseudo-science to it to mislead people.

Not unlike J.G. going off, using his "objective reason", calling people evil, breeding contempt for other's beliefs, saying people like me and my freak friends should be prevented from taking part in society. He can't make a single post without wandering of into some haze of Ayn Rand and personal philosophy, all the while pretending to be ruled only by objective logic. That isn't your description of "Everything is philosophy". That is someone denying subjective motivation and then using the platform to make a subjective, philosophical rant. In other words, being a liar.

It's cute how you guys keep trying to bait me into disproving things when my whole point is you can't KNOW any of these things, and that all this Truth he is spouting is an illusion. I'm not going to enter into such silliness when I can't test my results any more than our impotent scientist J.G. here. The fact is if this were all wrapped up as easily as he is posing it he'd have a Nobel prize and there'd be no questions left to ask.

Why is it always the kookie guy railing about how people are evil that seem to have all the answers. They really don't. J.G. will make himself feel better by saying we are all stupid, uneducated, or evil, but in the end he knows that his answers are SUBJECTIVE. Even if he could prove them here, he couldn't say they would hold up a light year from here or 20 minutes in the future. To do so is supposition, belief.

The stuff he spouts has been around forever, and oddly enough people far more educated than he or I still reject it and continue to ask questions. I deal with it by saying there's a lot we simply can't know because of our limited ability to observe the universe. He deals with it by believing the rest of society is ignorant or evil.

Choose who you like, but I think the odds are a lot better he'll end up in a tin-foil hat than I will. He already has his paranoia honed to a fine edge.

Reply #15 Top
You do understand that John Galt hasn't exactly been the non-offensive respectful person in his posts right? True, that doesn't justify us bashing him (and I personally wasn't bashing him, I do think he should try to get it published if he's so positive and 100% sure it's objectively true), but it's pretty hard to carry a decent discussion with somebody who doesn't facilitate it with the proper respect.


Right, sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was taking sides. I want everyone to be nicer.

I'm no philosophical genius, but the burden of proof lies on the one who made the claim. Why should Bakerstreet disprove what John Galt hasn't proven? Not only does his claim that the universe is infinite but at the same time expanding contradicting, but also saying something is based on "Occam's Razor" does not make not automatically make it true.


Then Bakerstreet needs to point out the flaws in his arguments and show why they haven't been sufficiently supported rather than just posting that JG is a lunatic, and therefore wrong.

Sure, you could call anything science, but if you do, then don't expect to be taken seriously on matters of science. For one thing, there is a scientific method.
If philosophy really does say "Everything is science, and the scientific method is unnecessary" then, well, philosophy isn't science nor is anything based on such philosophy. It's just masturbation.


No, my point wasn't that everything is science, it was that everything is based on science, so I don't understand why there is a problem with using science (facts) to support a theory or philosophy. I think it's impossible not to.

Molly: there's nothing wrong with using philosophy with science, as long as you say so before hand and don't pretend your final result to be objective.


Bakerstreet: People have "personal philosophies" for a reason: they believe them to be completely true. Why should JG give and support his theory that he believes to be entirely true, but preface it with "This isn't necessarily true" just because some people disagree with him? It seems to me that you are just as certain of the truth of your statements as he is of his.

My point is that you should stop debating the ethics of debate and philosophy. If you attack everyone for saying that their beliefs are completely true, you would have to attack everyone. So instead of saying that JG is evil because he thinks he's right, just tell him why he's wrong. Actually, that goes for both of you. I really really like it when people are nice!
Reply #16 Top
Then Bakerstreet needs to point out the flaws in his arguments and show why they haven't been sufficiently supported rather than just posting that JG is a lunatic, and therefore wrong.


Bakerstreet isn't the one who claimed that the universe is infinite and yet constantly expanding. John Galt did.

If I say that Star Wars is 100% objectively true, then it's my responsibility to prove it, not your responsibility to disprove it.

No, my point wasn't that everything is science, it was that everything is based on science, so I don't understand why there is a problem with using science (facts) to support a theory or philosophy. I think it's impossible not to.


If I say, "Santa Claus is real because of Occam's Razor," is that using science to support a theory? If so, then I understand what you're saying.

Bakerstreet: People have "personal philosophies" for a reason: they believe them to be completely true. Why should JG give and support his theory that he believes to be entirely true, but preface it with "This isn't necessarily true" just because some people disagree with him? It seems to me that you are just as certain of the truth of your statements as he is of his.


Most people are humble enough to admit that there's some faith in their beliefs and not pretend that their beliefs are 100% objectively true. If you think your beliefs are 100% objectively true and there's no way for them to be wrong and that faith isn't a factor in any of them, well, then good for you, but most people are aware of their fallibility.
Reply #17 Top
messybuu- I think you're misunderstanding me. I am NOT trying to say that JG is completely right because BakerStreet never proved him wrong. My point is simply that saying JG is crazy and mean doesn't show why JG is wrong and why his arguments aren't supported. If you want to point ou that he is wrong, then do it. You've both done it in some places. If you think is theory is insane, just say so. If you think something he stated is completely false, say so. I'm not in any way saying that JG doesn't have to prove what he says. I'm saying that you need to point out that he hasn't proven anything instead of just saying that he's a bad person because that doesn't prove anything either. Some of the things you've both said are true, and some things are just plain unnecessary.
Reply #18 Top
messybuu- I think you're misunderstanding me. I am NOT trying to say that JG is completely right because BakerStreet never proved him wrong. My point is simply that saying JG is crazy and mean doesn't show why JG is wrong and why his arguments aren't supported. If you want to point ou that he is wrong, then do it. You've both done it in some places. If you think is theory is insane, just say so. If you think something he stated is completely false, say so. I'm not in any way saying that JG doesn't have to prove what he says. I'm saying that you need to point out that he hasn't proven anything instead of just saying that he's a bad person because that doesn't prove anything either. Some of the things you've both said are true, and some things are just plain unnecessary.


1) I've mentioned the contradiction in John Galt's argument a few times, yet neither you nor he has acknowledged it. Why is that?
2) We have pointed out why he hasn't proven anything. We have explained what's wrong with his argument. Why do you still ignore it?
3) You're going to have to explain what part of John Galt's argument is true and support it with evidence.
Reply #19 Top
So be happy, the universe has always existed and will always exist in some form or another

No matter what belief you have, big bang started the universe or God did, you still have the chicken and the egg. If God created the universe, who created God?



So John, what is the difference between saying "The universe has always existed and will always exist" and "God has always existed and will always exist?" It seems to me that you are willing to accept a universe in spite of the fact that you can't explain what created it, but then you use the fact that no one can explain what created God as an argument that God cannot exist.

Just curious about what your explanation might be.[
Reply #20 Top
Molly: again, ..

J.G.'s flaw isn't in the details of his theory, it is that he is proposing untestable assumption as outright fact. I could assert that the birds in the Galapagos are identical to the ones in my backyard. You would assume I am wrong, but you'd be obligated to go there to really prove it. J.G makes statements about places we can't go; times we can't venture to and for which we have no record. That's barely good enough for hypothesis, since it is untestable. Worse, he's not proposing theories, he's stating his ideas as if they were philosophical TRUTH.

He's telling you how the universe works, far outside the realm of his expertise and ability to observe, and then daring us to prove him wrong. He doesn't know these things any more than anyone else. They seem logical to him, and he assumes.


His conclusions are based on the assumption that everything, everywhere, everyWHEN works as it does here. Anything he states as fact based upon such assumptions isn't scientific. So, when he finishes his nutty rants, it makes sense to him because he has already swallowed his assumptions. Some of us know better, and see that without those big leaps of faith, the theories don't hold up...

He calls himself a adherant of reason and logic, waves science around like a baseball bat, and then constructs huge towers of "logic" made of assumption and personal philosophy. Then he goes off the deep end with all the "evil" stuff and rants about religion and comminism. Is that objectivity? Hardly.

The issue is someone calling themselves a beliver in objective reason, and then stating assumptions as if they more valid than anyone else's. So, when J.G makes asinine statements like he can disprove God, etc., he talking out of his ass. He can theorize, he can submit an untestable hypothesis, but in the end all he has is belief, just like the rest of us.
Reply #21 Top
Molly:

You stated that people's philosophies are their philosophies because they believe them to be absolutely true. But see subjectivists don't. They believe that what they believe is just as equally as wrong as everyone else's belief system. Hence why they can say that I'm wrong, and have no proof for it and believe that it's justified in saying it, because they have made the assumption that all humans will always be wrong, because we don’t ever have the facility to be right because we're just dumb animals with 5 senses and can be nothing more and thus are a slave to those 5 senses and they cloud us and always will result in skewed results because we can't possibly reach an "objective" position because perspective will always interfere. That is the key to their philosophy, it is the basis for all of this. It is why they make the statement "you're wrong" and don't feel they need to prove it. It's self-evident to them. This key point is also why I use the world evil in relation to subjectivists. Because the assumption of being wrong necessarily requires that the next logical step (unless you're a hypocrite) which is that there is no point in learning anything because it will be wrong anyhow, thus embracing ignorance.

Thank you for being the only one that has actually contributed and asked questions and pointed out things that you didn’t understand or agree with and ask me to defend my position or clarify it. It is for people like you that I write, because it is people like you that I can learn from, refine my position, and in the process, perhaps, provide in trade, thoughts that you might not have considered.

Everyone else:

1. Philosophy is the first science. Thus science and philosophy go hand in hand. If physics is the root of all other sciences (which it is) then philosophy is the root of all physics. Why? Because philosophy is the study of our understanding of the universe and why we believe what we believe. Further, it is the study (Epistemology, a sub-sect of philosophy) of how we learn and why we learn what we do. It is the very thing that allows us objectivity through the study of our perspective so that we can use that point of reference to calculate any position from any perspective. (i.e. This is why we could tell exactly where we are in the known universe from any point in the universe at any time so long as we had star charts from earth and knew exactly what time it is. This is proof that point of view can be overcome and subjectivity is wrong.) Of key note here: Philosophy is philosophy because of the use of logic and science. If neither of these two things are used, then it ceases to be philosophy and becomes theology because then you are dealing with statements without proof and without logic and ask people to believe you simply because you said so. (Otherwise called asking people to be stupid.)
2. Read my articles again. I don't engage in limiting those who can participate in society. In fact, I enjoin everyone regardless of race, color, sex or parentage and put them on a level playing field that only changes as a result of the choices in their lives. Ignorance and logical fallacies including contradiction such as BakerStreet’s is simply a choice, one that can be and should be judged. What I do say, is that if an action (intended or otherwise) is anti-life, that it is evil, and all evil must be ruthlessly destroyed, or evil will win and death will be the result. Since this concept of always fighting evil and destroying it is the basis of every belief system, either philosophical, or theological on the entire earth (well the 200+ variations that I have read including the big 5 religions (Yes, I've read the bible (most of the currently accepted variations), Torah, the Koran, the writings of Buddha, and those of the Hindi faith)) then only a hypocrite (or someone from one of the other variations that I haven't read that embraces death) can condemn me for suggesting that we need to fight evil and destroy it. The only thing that BakerStreet doesn't like is that I suggest that his entire belief system is evil, and then give PROOF of my position that is unassailable and non-contradictory. People tend to take it badly when you call their belief system evil because you are essentially saying that they are evil. (which is what I am saying btw.) That's what we call human nature. Or to put it more precisely, Passion rules Reason.
3. ParaTed2k: The concept of God (and his powers of omnipotence) violates the laws of the universe. Thus god can't exist in reality (he might exist in unreality, but as I said, it can't possibly affect reality, see above, and thus is irrelevant. Nor could the energy of the universe be created by unreality because that would also be a contradiction of terms and thus cause the annihilation (at the moment of creation) of the energy and thus reality. This is the circular nature of the illogic of the concept of god that proves that God cannot exist in any meaningful way in reality. (more proof to follow later in a future article, which I have to write very carefully to get all of my thoughts in order without contradiction.)
4. I am not telling anyone anything outside my ability to observe when observation actually matters and is required. The point is that what I have done is present contradictions in the current positions thus proving them wrong. That doesn't require observation, it only requires a contradiction in logic (i.e. if you can find one case where the formula is not true in the space of real numbers, then the formula is wrong, this is the fundamental principle of all mathematics and all logic). Further, my statements about the universe and energy always existing is borne out by observation, and is non-contradictory, whereas the other 200+ variations I have read including the big 5 religions are all contradictory. And of course as Molly pointed out, you don't put out a theory and then state "I'm probably wrong..." You put out your theory, and you defend it until someone shows a contradiction in your theory. Again, no one has done so here.
5. The only assumption that I make is that the universe is a synonym for "reality". That everything inside this universe will work according to the rules of this universe. If that were not the case, then the universe would self-destruct as a result of the paradox (contradiction). Thus this assumption is correct my the nature of the definition. As for stuff that isn't part of "reality", it's irrelevant to reality, and thus humans because it can never affect us without instantly annihilating the universe in the process, and then we still wouldn't give a damn either. If it exists in reality, then it cannot exist in "unreality" (i.e. everything not in reality... you remember this from high school math with real numbers and unreal numbers right?) This is the same principle stated in reverse as the previous statement. So please, prove me wrong. Demonstrate, in any way, shape or form, anything from unreality affecting reality. Show me one case in history with a reproducible experiment that will disprove my statements. You can't. Hell a guy has been offering $1 million for more than 40 years if someone can provide a reproducible experiment to demonstrate this, and in 40 years, no one ever has and hasn't even been able to do that for anything in the past, burning bushes included. If you do, you can be rich, so go for it, please! Until then, shut up and learn, because you're wrong.
6. Stating that no one can ever be right is a contradiction in and of itself. Because if no one can ever be right, then the statement "no one can ever be right" can't be right. And to hedge your bets and say that the only universal truth is that there is no universal truth, is hypocrisy and circular in nature. (AND THUS WRONG)
7. Messybuu: Show me where you have shown any contradiction in anything I have said. I must have missed it between all of the "you're wrong, so there!" I would be happy to address it. I have proven my arguments with logical proofs and examples that support my statements. I have demonstrated the edge cases and the center cases and demonstrated how in every case without exception my position holds. Thus (as you say you should never believe anything until you have proof of it, thus you must be an atheist because if you were religious or believed in God you would be a hypocrite) I have fulfilled my obligation in daring to speak. Fallibility is the result of passion ruling reason. And yes, I might be wrong, hence why I put my ideas out so that others may prove me wrong, and I may grow in the process of finding the non-contradictory path. Instead I get people like Bakerstreet that say "you're wrong, so there!" and provide me with nothing to grow with. This is a trade. For fair trade to happen, both parties must provide equal value. I have obviously made you think, even if it was a knee jerk reaction. However, I have not yet seen anything that requires me to refine my position, or retract it. There is no equal trade, only people attacking me because I dare to say that I'm right until you prove me wrong. But this is the nature of our society now. Everything is for free. We love lotteries and gifts and freebies for this very reason. It's about getting something for nothing and it's sickening. Not the least of which because if you're getting something for nothing, it's your nothing that was provided, but that something was created by someone that worked damn hard to created it and you're essentially stealing it.
8. All of the rest of BakerStreet's arguments all come down to "How dare he make a statement and actually believe it's true! How Arrogant!" Which of course goes to my point about subjectivism and the root of the evil in subjectivism. So if you believe in subjectivism, you'll keep on believing in it and if you do, and are not a hypocrite, you will go back to living in a cave and living to the age of 20 years old with a pit out back for your faeces. I like indoor plumbing, I like cell phones, and I like the rest of the products of science. And guess what? For there to be any science at all, the people doing the science have to dare to stand up and say "I am right. Prove me wrong!"
9. I am right. Prove me wrong. If you are going to belittle me without proof that I'm wrong, then you don't get to speak, because that's called bigotry. It's what racism and women as property, and the holocaust was created on, and I will not participate. But again, you still haven't provided any evidence that I am wrong, other than your assumption that no one can be right, which is wrong because it has a contradiction in it. (see above)
10. I have given proof to every one of my arguments. Further, I have addressed every single point from everyone that has ever said I was wrong with any basis provided, and proven them wrong (if they actually said anything other than "you're wrong! So there!")

That you don’t like my position doesn’t really matter. What matters is that it has no contradiction. Until you have something to contribute that either requires me to be clearer or shows a contradiction that requires me to adjust my position, be quiet, or if you must speak, don’t speak in response to me, do so in the subjectivist forums, or CNN or whatever other liberal (wrong use of the word liberal, but you get the point based on the definition used by western society) brainwashing organization you came from that will validate your opionion and provide nothing other than other lemmings nodding their heads in synchronisity with your own. (and do it on the highway too so that I get all of those great lanes to myself because you've all lined up behind eachother!)
Reply #22 Top
You are 100% correct, and this is one of the reasons why I find Australian Aboriginal spirtuality fascinating, because they do not use linear time, but instead use something that I think is called canonical time. It doesn't make much linguistic sense in English because the whole language revolves around the assumption that linear time is true, but the Aborigines understood it well and didn't have nearly the same hangups about this chicken egg question as we do because their languages revolved around the assumption that the universe had always existed, which is a concept far beyond the possible understandings of most human minds. MIne included.

"If philosophy really does say "Everything is science, and the scientific method is unnecessary"

Actually, science is based on philosophy. It is JG's much cherished rational thought that owes its popularity to Descartes. Ironically, it was flaws in Descartes' work that led me to the conclusion that the Universe had always existed. After all, Descartes argued that there was a God and that it could be proven through rational scientific reasoning.

"Nor could the energy of the universe be created by unreality because that would also be a contradiction of terms and thus cause the annihilation (at the moment of creation) of the energy and thus reality."

Ah yet another philosopher falls victim to the trap of demanding an immaterial world to prove itself using material laws and to adhere to material laws. Of course the immaterial world doesn't work according to material laws. That would make no sense.
So, to clarify, I am a socialist, so JG hates me. I am a subjectivist (so JG thinks I;m evil) but I happen to believe, through my subjective opinion that the universe has always existed (so JG agrees with me) but I also happen to believe that we can't gain a full understanding of this (so JG thinks I'm evil). As always JG, when in doubt, blame the Left. And don't bother really analysing whether such a label as "Left-wing" or "Right-Wing" makes any sense either. That would be a waste of time that might mean you have to confront your own prejudices against the enemy.

"And to hedge your bets and say that the only universal truth is that there is no universal truth, is hypocrisy and circular in nature. "

Oh come on, that was pretty lame first year stuff. There is no universal truth with one exception: that there is no universal truth. Come o, you're above a lamearse argument like that JG.
Reply #23 Top
"That you don’t like my position doesn’t really matter. What matters is that it has no contradiction. "


Again, you have no way to know if a contradiction exists. You may not have found one, but you can't say scientifically that there isn't one. Most of what you know now may be totally invalid in other places, times, or circumstances. Therefore the conclusions you draw may be as well. If so, then your universal "Truth" is simply local belief. You believe, you do not KNOW. Until you can test sufficiently, all you have is what seems to be true here and now.

You have hypotheses, you have beliefs, and none of them are less valid than those held any of the rest of us. But when you say you can definately disprove the existance of God, or that you KNOW things scientifically, you're full of shit, frankly. You keep pretending that I am saying that you are WRONG, diverting the focus of the arguement by imposing the standards I am saying don't exist.. I can't say you are wrong about your BELIEFS any more than you can say you are right. What I take issue with is the fact that you are convinced of the TRUTH of your beliefs to a deranged degree...

In the end, you take your observations and produce a system of beliefs for yourself. Yours are no more reliable or universally testable than anyone else's. Get over yourself. My problem isn't with your beliefs, rather with your ignorant attempt to state the unprovable as Truth, with ample dollups of untestable science and armchair philosophy to back it all up.

You've backed down considerably with your language, started qualifying your arguements, and I think that rejecting your previous arrogance is good. Keep that up and you might really learn what objectivity means, instead of living according to a stringent set of 'a priori' conclusions and philosophical prejudices.
Reply #24 Top
Last time I ever respond to you BakerStreet: (and am doing so only because you actually have some rational point, however incorrect it is)

Again, you have no way to know if a contradiction exists. You may not have found one, but you can't say scientifically that there isn't one. Most of what you know now may be totally invalid in other places, times, or circumstances. Therefore the conclusions you draw may be as well. If so, then your universal "Truth" is simply local belief. You believe, you do not KNOW. Until you can test sufficiently, all you have is what seems to be true here and now.

Actually I do. It's called a philosophical proof. As I said, it is the same as a mathematical one. The reason why I don't go into detail on a philosophical proof and only use the mathematical equivalent (if n=0, n=1 and n=n always work, then the equation is always true, for those of you that are just reading this) is because to understand the philosophical equivalent requires one hell of a lot of knowledge that most people are not likely to have becasue they didn't major in philosophy in university, thus use the mathematical analog is easier to understand. And just like with a mathematical proof, a philosophical proof is true for all cases. If you apply my thesis to a philosophical proof, it survives. The others do not.

What it doesn't demand is that there isn't also another non-contradictory refinement of my statement. But it does state that it is always true and will always be true. (I've tried to explain this to you many times, but you are either incapable or unwilling to listen and ask questions if you don't understand what I've writen so that you can better understand the principle that you obviously are in ignorance of.)

But when you say you can definately disprove the existance of God, or that you KNOW things scientifically, you're full of shit, frankly.

Again, I say prove it. You haven't.
Reply #25 Top
It doesn't make much linguistic sense in English because the whole language revolves around the assumption that linear time is true, but the Aborigines understood it well and didn't have nearly the same hangups about this chicken egg question as we do because their languages revolved around the assumption that the universe had always existed, which is a concept far beyond the possible understandings of most human minds. MIne included.

This makes no sense. This is precisely the reason why we have the term infinity.

"If philosophy really does say "Everything is science, and the scientific method is unnecessary"

Actually, science is based on philosophy. It is JG's much cherished rational thought that owes its popularity to Descartes. Ironically, it was flaws in Descartes' work that led me to the conclusion that the Universe had always existed. After all, Descartes argued that there was a God and that it could be proven through rational scientific reasoning.

Which was just another case of a man working very hard to prove God because he had been brainwashed into believing in God so deeply that he couldn't deal with the truth that there isn't one. This is Aristotle's failing as well. (As Rand points out on page 2 of Introduction to Objectivst Epistemology.)

Ah yet another philosopher falls victim to the trap of demanding an immaterial world to prove itself using material laws and to adhere to material laws. Of course the immaterial world doesn't work according to material laws. That would make no sense.

Read what I wrote again. Understand mathematics and you'll see the contradiction in this. An immaterial world cannot affect a material world by definition and thus is irrelivent even if it did exist, which as being part of the material world, you could never direct or indirectly observe or be affected by the immaterial world. (which is what I said)

So, to clarify, I am a socialist, so JG hates me.

I don't hate you, I hate the evil that you have fallen into believing because of a flaw in your education or logic that has been shown and proven repeatedly since it was first put out for the world's consumption by Kant. and then demonstrated in the real world with the application of this thesis by Stalin and Hitler, Stalin via the writtings of Marx, and Hitler through some perverse belief in socialism that while I understand it, and it's completely supported by the subjectivist position preposed by Kant, it still boggles the mind. I can only understand it on a theoretical level, not on an "application" level.

I am a subjectivist (so JG thinks I;m evil)

See above.

but I happen to believe, through my subjective opinion that the universe has always existed (so JG agrees with me)

Actually I don't, because for me to agree with you, I would have to agree with the premise from which you based your assertion, which obviously I don't.

but I also happen to believe that we can't gain a full understanding of this (so JG thinks I'm evil). As always JG, when in doubt, blame the Left. And don't bother really analysing whether such a label as "Left-wing" or "Right-Wing" makes any sense either. That would be a waste of time that might mean you have to confront your own prejudices against the enemy.

Actually read my posts. I equally detest the right and the left. The right because they think it's ok to take away my freedoms because of their religion, and the left becaus they think that it's ok to take away my freedoms "for the greater good". I just happen to harp on socialists more than right wingers, because they happen to be a greater threat right at this moment, although that could change if W gets his way, and then I'll fight the religious right (JESUSLAND!) just as vigorously. Thus I dismiss the premise of most of our society, both left and right as flawed on the most basic levels. You could most call me a Libritarian, which of course embodies the true meaning of the word "liberal" which has been bastardized by the leftists in North America (most of Europe still uses the word correctly). But I'm not strictly a libertarian either because of contradictions in their belief system as well. Hence the term "objectivist" which with the exception of their position on Gays (see article) embodies my belief system.

"And to hedge your bets and say that the only universal truth is that there is no universal truth, is hypocrisy and circular in nature. "

Oh come on, that was pretty lame first year stuff. There is no universal truth with one exception: that there is no universal truth. Come o, you're above a lamearse argument like that JG.

Actually it isn't. What you have done is taken a universally encompassing statement that applies in all cases and created an artificial division where there isn't one. You can't have it both ways. If you're going to make a statement about the entire universe, you can't then make a statement that limits your previous statement to everything but that statement, it's a contradiction. It's analogous to using the word to define it, or using the bible to prove itself. You can't make a universal statement and then limit it's scope. I forget the term for that kind of illogic, but it still is an illogical argument. The only time that you can limit your scope or definition is when the thing you are trying to define is not part of the scope that you're limiting.

Ayn Rand does an excellent job of completely debunking this Kantian argument in some of her non-fiction. I highly recommend it, because she does a much better job than I am doing. (and no one has ever been able to prove her wrong, and lots more than Bakerstreet have tried...)