Draginol Draginol

Faith in God

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Faith in God

My failure to believe

from JoeUser Forums

You can't choose to have faith in something.  You either have faith or you don't. And when it comes to most religious issues the most faith I can manage to muster is the faith that there may be some greater being, some higher power that ultimately created the universe.  Beyond that, my faith is lacking.

My friends who have faith cannot understand this aspect of myself anymore than I can understand their ability to have faith in their particular religious choice. It's beyond me. I simply cannot bring myself to have faith in the teachings of any man-made theology. Nor can I accept that any of the theologies being presented are "divinely" provided.

For example, I fully understand the nature of Christianity. In fact, I'd argue I know it far better than most "Christians" I know.  Christianity boils down to this: If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior then you will be able to join him in the kingdom of heaven.  It's as simple as that. If you truly believe in Christ, then you will be saved.

Not believing in Jesus as your lord and savior does not mean you go to hell. Not in the sense most people think of it anyway.  The bible is vague (at best) about the alternatives.  Having faith in Christ is simply you accepting an invitation to blessed path after the end. Not accepting that invitation leads to the unknown.  My point being, my problem with faith is not based on the oft-spoken issue of "What about the people who have never heard of Christianity? Do they all go to hell? Does that mean that everyone else is going to suffer?"  Because that's not actually what most Christian theologians believe. The alternative to the kingdom of heaven isn't eternal pain and torment. The alternative is unknown (though you can get into a lively debate as competing passages of the old and new testament, translated umpteen billion times get thrown back and forth).

But for me, faith in Christianity (or any religion that shows there is more to the world than the physical) is something I desire but am incapable of. It's that the specifics of each religion almost always fall apart on closer, objective inspection.

I know, for instance, that Jesus was not born on December 25th. At least, the preponderance of evidence is that he wasn't born on December 25th.  The date was simply put there after the fact by the early Catholic church to make it easier to convert pagans.  Easter is the same thing with its taking place conveniently during pagan fertility festivals. I've known this for years. But that wouldn't really disturb my faith. The actual dates of the birth and death Christ are arbitrary.

But things get more difficult when the preponderance of evidence indicates that the concept of "immaculate" conception of Jesus came much later (in fact, the books of Luke and Mark and such didn't even get written for decades after the fact). And the more you dig into the historical accuracy of Christmas the more the whole thing unravels.

Christianity, as a sect, really boiled down to something pretty specific at the beginning. Jesus was leader of a particular group of Jews. He was tried and crucified for sedition. Two days later, a number of eye witnesses claim they saw and spoke to him -- that he had risen from the dead.  And enough people believed -- had faith -- that this was the truth that everything eventually snowballs from there (with a big help of St. Paul who, btw, had never met Jesus in all likelihood). Like I said, the more I've looked into the specifics, the more it unravels.

For me to have faith in such a specific vision of religion would require proof. Real proof. And of course, that's the catch, proof denies faith. I'm not looking for a reason to have faith, I'm looking for proof and I know such proof that would satisfy me doesn't exist. You either have faith or you don't. And I don't.

Not having faith is nothing to take pride in. It makes me feel a bit ill to see some pretentious atheist try to claim intellectual superiority for his faith of believing that the universe just spontaneously came into being. That's a faith that has about as much "scientific" proof behind it as believing that the universe was created 6 seconds ago by 3 green fairies who gave us all these memories.

As faiths go, I would much rather believe that there is an omnipotent being that is concerned over our welfare to the point that he sent his own son to die for our sins to enable us to join him after we leave or mortal coil. That sure beats believing the universe simply sprang into existence and that after we die there is nothing.  But I have faith in neither belief.  Simply put, I don't know what happens after we die.  But I cannot have faith in the specifics of Christianity. I'm just not the faith kind of guy. I need evidence to believe something.

I don't think you need to have faith to be a happy person. Nor do I think you need faith to have a fulfilled life.  The home I live in is full of love and joy. There is no emptiness due to the lack of faith or religion in our lives.  But at the same time, I truly wish I could have faith because I very much want to believe that there is more to this world than what I can see and touch (or that others have seen or touched whose credibility I trust).  But I cannot muster that spark.

And so I can enjoy warmth and comfort of Christmas because of its earthly goodness due to the presence and love of friends and family. But I can't enjoy it due to its otherworldly meanings.

religion
11,847 views 50 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
You started by saying you can't choose to have faith in something, and that statement has been repeated several times. I think that is rediculous. I make decisions every day as to whether or not I wish to have faith in something. Do I have faith that I will not get fired? because if I don't, why go in?
You also seem to imply that you are somehow incapable of faith. That is a litteral impossibility. If you had no fiath in anything, you would be insane.
Looks to me like the real question, is do you have faith in GOD. That is purely a choice. If you were Christian, you would believe that it is THE choice. The one choice that sets man apart from Gods other creations, the choice to believe in him or not.

I'm not even going to try to sell you on Christianity, because to be honest, it can be very hard to swallow. I take comfort in the knowledge that it is a translation of a translation, and can not be taken to litterally. However I should point out that on all of the points that matter, I have never had anyone successfully show me a contridiction or flaw that was not of thier own making, and I have had MANY debates on the subject.

It sounds like what is really going on with you is you are struggeling with your current faith (The faith you have that Christianity is false) I certainly hope that your current faith fails, and is replaced with a Christian one, but it does not change the fact that we are brothers in Gods eye, and whatever you come to, you can rest assured, you will always have our support.

Wayne
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
As Kobrano, Miracles are evidence of a greater being or at least in the absence of an explanation or proof of why something occurred.

Until then, find them and believe.

Of course, most relegions reference one God over all, so in essence we are all talking about the same God.

Best class I had in college was the Philosophy class with a teacher, who once was a Jew, had 'renounced' Judaism and started independently studing the Bible, Christianity, Catholosism and Islam. He was very knowledgable and presented great arguments for a variety of topics related to Philosophy!

All this at Henry Ford Community College no less!
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top

Few people are willing to share their stories of faith to people that don't have faith, so your evidence will be even harder to locate. I shared only a tiny snippet of them above, in abridged form, but I assure you, I have many more - they will remain in my heart though. If by evidence you mean you are looking for something like a car that god drove in, or something mortal and tangible, you'll never find it i'm afraid. But there is plenty of evidence out there in other forms, its up to you to discover them.

That is probably because in the end, each is unique to the individual.  It was Soren Kierkegaard that said you can only go so far in the proof of God or religion, and once you reach the end, you have to make a 'leap of faith'.

I dont beleive in prosthelysizing (sp).  Each person must come to their own realization.  I will gladly tell you mine, but that is how I found it, and may or may not help you.  In the end, follow yourheart, for in matters of faith, the brain cant get there, but the heart may.

Silly?  Probably.  But from a logical standpoint, so is faith.

Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top

"Looking around you and seeing the miracle of it all" doesn't in any way imply that Christianity is valid as a religion any more than believing that some super being created it all. 

Believing (or having faith) that there is some higher power, of some sort, is a far cry from believing in the specifics of Christianity.  I certainly very much would like to believe in Christianity. It is not logic that makes it unravel as one looks at it deeper but rather history.

I am glad for those of you who have faith in religion. Not all of us can have faith in a particular religion. It is not through lack of knowledge or lack of effort or lack of plain thinking about it.

I'm not even going to try to sell you on Christianity, because to be honest, it can be very hard to swallow. I take comfort in the knowledge that it is a translation of a translation, and can not be taken to litterally. However I should point out that on all of the points that matter, I have never had anyone successfully show me a contridiction or flaw that was not of thier own making, and I have had MANY debates on the subject.

That is because, in my experience, every bible debate ends with someone saying "God did it".  It's kind of the equivalent of when watching Xena and something that doesn't make sense happens just saying "Wizards did it". I don't debate the specifics of any particular religion because you can always just fall back on self-referencing "God is all powerful and thus all things are possible". Or you can reinterpret things. It's tiresome. Especially if the other person can say "Well you can't take that liberal -- sure the first day God said let there be light but the sun wasn't created until the third day but..but.. it's all interpretation" 

Besides, my problems with Christianity have nothing to do with the contradictions (alleged or not) but simply, like you said, how implausible some of it is. 

Simply put, for me, if Christianity were real and truly important, God would not leave it to chance. That's just my view. I don't ask others to accept it.  I don't look down on those who have faith. I simply don't share their beliefs even though I wish I did.

Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top

Brad - this is none of my business, and you obviously don't have to answer if you choose not to, but I have to ask:

what do you teach your boys when it comes to questions about faith?  what path would you like to see them take?

Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top

Simply put, for me, if Christianity were real and truly important, God would not leave it to chance. That's just my view. I don't ask others to accept it. I don't look down on those who have faith. I simply don't share their beliefs even though I wish I did.

But then if that were so, we would not have free will.  All would be predetermined.  I dont expect that to persuade you, but I did not want you to think that God is going to name a religion.  He is not.  We have to either believe or not.

You have a lot of faith, just not in one creed.  You are searching for a creed for your beliefs.  You will find one in time.  Dont force it.  let it come. I suspect we have many creeds (all with a central dogma) due to the fact that man is not homogenous, but all have a core belief.  it just manifests itself in different ways.

Dont fret the petty stuff.  Find your core and let that dictate the creed.  Your core is good, so there is no wrong choice.  Just false ones, but you wont fall for them.

Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
Draginol -- You're a very analytical person and there is NOTHING wrong with wanting some facts to back some stuff up. (Do you feel like your intellegence gets in the way of belief? as if it would be easier if you didn't always over-analyze stuff?) That's okay. I think it all still holds water even after stiff analysis.

Everyone has given their recommendations. I'm not sure why I would think mine would be of any value whatsoever to you. As a person who adores an afternoon of research or a whole day of non-fiction reading -- if I can get it! -- I think I know where you're coming from. You said Luke was written decades after the fact. He mentions he did a great deal of resource for the book he sent to "Theophilus." A historian who set out to disprove Luke later said that Luke, as a historian, is without fault when it came to describing all the details like distances and nuances you find in Luke and acts. For more on all this, I highly recommend "The Case for Christ" if you're interested in the viewpoint of a DC journalist who set out as an atheist to find out the truth about the faith his wife newly adopted. He didn't want to believe something false nor have her believing it. He does the research, the interviews, and the work. I think it will please you.

After all, Alexander the Great's biography was written 500 or so years after his death; we don't really question his life, do we? What is a couple decades in perspective? Gold for the logical mind in that book. Another awesome logical book that does not use the Bible in its logic and philosophy is the classic Mere Christianity by Lewis. Just some ideas to get the info you say you desire. And yeah, I still think it's faith even if you have some darn good evidence for what you believe. Thomas had faith though he saw and felt. I don't look down on Thomas at all.

"Better a happy, satisfied Buddhist (or athiest, taoist, hindu, whatever) than a lukewarm-wanna-be-but-not-really Christian. " I think God dislikes lukewarm Christians as much as you do Dharma! (you know about the whole "spewing out of my mouth" thing.) And yet funny how often a who Christian who is "hot" for Him is despised by those without the same faith; looked down upon. (Not by you, of course. Just in general.) I'm glad you're happy and satisfied in life.

Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top

what do you teach your boys when it comes to questions about faith?  what path would you like to see them take?

I hope they find their own path. We enrolled them both in a Christian pre-school. The older one goes to public school now. But we don't try to tell them about religion either way.  Both my parents are Christian btw.

Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
As a Christian, sometimes I wonder, "Why doesn't God just announce his presence to the world and remove all doubt"? The trials of faith affect Christians just as much as everyone else.

It could very well be that it would be easier to believe if we were alive when Jesus walked the Earth. But there were also many people who saw him and did not believe, so even strong evidence is not a substitute for faith.

Power is not the same as truth, and just because someone can do mighty works does not mean that they are righteous.

One thing I have learned is that in order to solve a problem, one must believe that there is a solution. There isn't always a rational way of proving a solution exists until you find it.

Imagine if we traveled back 100 years. How many people would believe that there would be such a thing as the internet? 200 years ago, who would believe that America would be the mightiest nation in the world? One of the harder parts of faith is accepting that our knowledge isn't perfect.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
Brad, this is not an attempt to highjack your thread, but when you have time (like you ever have a spare moment) you may find this article and the subsequent thread discussion interesting. Are there different paths to the same God?
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
I’m in the same place you are Draginol regarding faith, for many of the same reasons. As you say all arguments for god always seems to fall back on the big leap. Most people who profess absolute certainty in their belief in god are not being honest with themselves. There’s almost always doubt even in the strongest of believers. The constant struggle against death is proof of that. My Grandmother was the most religious person I’ve ever known, her faith in God appeared to be unshakable. When she was on her deathbed and I was holding her hand, she looked up and said she didn’t want to die. She can’t walk, can barely talk and is in constant pain and she’s still not ready to go to kingdom of heaven and be with God, Why? When I was 16 there was an intrusion dam that some of the other kids use to swim at after school. The first time I went, there was a group my age jumping off the very top. I climbed up to do the same and when I got there it was scary. I stood up there for a while pretending I was just enjoying the view with a death grip on the rail. A couple of 5th graders climbed up and jumped off right in front of me laughing the whole way and I was still afraid to jump. When I finally jumped the instant I hit the water all fear was replaced with joy. I couldn’t wait to get up there and jump again. With absolute certainty there is no fear. There would be as much envy as sadness when a loved one was about to pass away. Be content in the fact that you’re going to have to die and get a tour of heaven before you’ll be convinced it exist. Besides the Bible doesn’t say for certain that you have to be in your body when you accept Jesus as your savior.
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
I guess it all depends on one's personal perception of "God". To me God is simply the ultimate reality and creation whatever IT may encompass. Maybe just the laws of nature, evolution, the big bang, or however far back science and reason takes us. I guess if I had to define myself at this point in time I would consider myself a deist.

I was raised in a christian family and believe in many of the teachings of Jesus to be moral and just, however I believe Jesus was simply a preacher, and the Bible is simply a book used to teach morals, some of its teachings just, yet others I find to be amoral, bigoted, or simply absurd.


"My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." Thomas Paine-The Age of Reason
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top

Most people who profess absolute certainty in their belief in god are not being honest with themselves. There’s almost always doubt even in the strongest of believers.

Good staement, but you actually contradict yourself.  For I do believe that there are people who are absolute in their belief, but only because they dont question it and accept it blindly.  SO they are not being honest with themselves, probably because they dont know how to be.

Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
I never use "because God did it" as an answer to a debate.
I am however fairly firm in my opinion that things did not "technically" occur exactly as the bible has them laid out. How can we expect the supreem being of the universe to explain things in enough detail that we would understand them. That would be like saying we can explain physics to a bird.
But that is neither here nor there since you are not concerned with tchnical details.

Is the implausability the fact that you are allowed the choice? The whole point of faith is for it to be a choice. if it wasn't it wouldn't mean anything. So you see he must "leave it to chance" the alternative is subservience.
From a purely logical standpoint I think it is easy to assume that if there is a supreeme being, he already has that, and would like to experience devotion just as much. If not more. so why is that hard to accept?

Wayne
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
For I do believe that there are people who are absolute in their belief, but only because they dont question it and accept it blindly.


There are also those, like myself, who have questioned and struggled and have now come to a point where our belief is absolute. I still question why things happen certain ways, or what I am supposed to do, but that is sincerely asking questions and expecting answers from a Lord that I KNOW exists. It is not questioning whether or not I believe in Him, but what He would have me do.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
Spiritual honesty is the beginning point of a meaningful spiritual journey. St. Augustine said that to be a spiritual person one must know themselves and God well. It seems to me that you are coming to terms with the reality of your current state of faith. That is the best place to embark on a spiritual journey. In the Christain Scriptures, God himself invites us to "come and reason" with him, states that he can be known by that which he has created, and invites us to engage him. Why don't you simply confront him directly?

If there is a supreme being or higher power, could he not make himself known to you? I personally think that God is big enough to be confronted with our questions and doubts without being affronted. If he exisits and we are created, than the inner desire for a relationship with a greater being was placed within by him and reflects a desire on his part for interaction. I say what do we have to loose in seeking him out? If we find him, we are enriched by knowing him; and if we don't we are no worse off for the journey.

I don't think your "lack of faith" is a flaw, it is and opportunity not to find religion, but to find a meaningful connection to God.
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
Brad,

I'll pray for you in your struggle in the hope that God will look into your heart and honor your search for Him.

There are two good books that adress the proof you are looking for. Both are by Lee Stroebel. They are "The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus" and "The Case for Faith: A Journalist Investigates the Toughest Objections to Christianity". Both are inexpensive and are available though amazon.com for less that $10 each.

Mr. Stroebel was, like you, without faith. He was a court reporter and decided to investigate the issues and prove once and for all that Jesus, Christianity and the like were all a bunch of hokum. He interviewed scientists and doctors and theologians. He became a believer . In the book he presents his findings in a simple straight-forward narrative. He doesn't use a lot of mumbo-jumbo, but facts and logic.

I encourage you to read both of these books. You might just find what you are looking for.
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
Brad,

I'll pray for you in your struggle in the hope that God will look into your heart and honor your search for Him.
I don't think Brad is looking for this--he's quite satisfied with the way he is.
I have tried and tried to have faith. I have prayed for it, asked God to help me believe....and I simply can't. I cannot believe. I'm sometimes envious of those who have this faith, this all consuming belief.....but it's just not for me.
I can't do things half-assed. Better a happy, satisfied Buddhist (or athiest, taoist, hindu, whatever) than a lukewarm-wanna-be-but-not-really Christian.
Very honest, but why do you turn to God to help when you don't believe he exists? Better to accept the world's religions symbolically or reject them and let it go at that.
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hi Draginol. I was very interested in your posts. I found your post very interesting and helpful. It is not far from the problems most of those outside Christianity have. Faith, in itself, is something that is quite the opposite of "proof" . If proof is required or made, then faith would no longer be faith.. Faith of itself is a mystical quality that believes something without any actual tangible proof. That is why it's called faith.

For Christians, thought it is often forgotten, faith is a gift of God and not something of our ownselves. For the Christian, faith is given from the grace of God, not due to us from any thing we did but the things which God has done for us. That is the substance of Eph.2., in scripture. You search for proof is something that only recently been a requirement as the fall out from the age of reason from around the time of the early Protestant Reformation days . There is and has been since that time the desire to change the mystical or mythos element into the logos, logic. However, when ever this is done logic or logos fails to arrive at the faith because it is not like a mathematical equation where you can precisely calculate end prove it with an infallible answer. Thus, attaining "proof" .

If one looks at the whole bible, they can see that the understanding of Christ in the Old Testament was dimly and shadowy undestood. It would not be correct to say they believed in Christ in the same manner as Christians do today. This impacts or shoudl impact the teaching of Chrstianity but somehow escapes a good portion of the fundamentalist movement. Wish I could write more but I have to go.
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top

Wish I could write more but I have to go.


Darn Sabbatismus, I was just really getting into your post. Please come back and expound on your thoughts. I definitely agree with you on faith being a gift. That was what I was trying to explain in my earlier posts on this thread.

Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sorry, I hope I can pick up where we left off. Anyway, the fundamentalist movement tends to disregard the context and genre in favor of a threatening of ghenna fire. We earthlings are God and are not capable of knowing the individual judgment of God concerning anyone, not even ourselves. Therefore, we should not be so quick to judge others. That being said, the teaching in scripture that is God gives grace to each person and they are ultimately judged according to the grace and light given them. The ghenna fire threatening to the Jews who saw and knew Christ visible and were benefitted by the grace and light of His presence, teaching and daily miracles have a far greater weight than us who are 2,000 years down the road.

The struggle with desire to have evidence and proof of everything is part of our daily habitation on this earth, today. Faith is by nature quite the opposite. In all societies prior to the age of reason, all people believed in God or gods and the mythos part of man ruled and inhabited his soul. There is a mystical part of the nature of man, that inherently knows man is much different and greater than the animal life. That part of man searches for his creator. In our world, the mystical part of man constantly struggles with the logos enviroment of our world to prove God exists. The atheists and agnostics realize that saying no, he doesn't, isn't satisfying to the soul. The two continue to quarrell with one another to resolve the problem, sometimes leaving the person in an angst position.

Without getting long winded, it appears to me to boil down to this. One has to ulitmately give up on the idea that he can "prove" God exists. Allowing for the inherent part of man to that is mystical supplies a source of freedom within man that move toward faith supposing that the grace and light is rendered from above. What is the use of struggling with it? Either it is and will come or it won't. But for sure, if one decides to battle on the side of logos alone, he will be in an endless battle to shut up the mythos, that is equally apart of his nature. Once the battling ceases, it is easier for light and grace to work. It is not that the logical side of man should not work, it just that it should not work alone and was never meant to work alone.

Then let time and experience have its place to work freely in a person they will help mold the human. Taking time from the daily grind and business of the worldly tasks, helps clear out the fog. Taking absolute quite time helps one look into the soul and contemplate their life and the life of human existence. It can't be done if we are always busy shutting out the mythos side of man for the logos and physical world. When light shines because we are open to it and cease battle and struggle against the mythos we may surely begin to see the meaning of our Lord's words: Mt.11:28 "come to me, all you that labor and I will give your rest.

Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
i like your article, draginol.

i am not a christian, but i've made a study of monotheism, and spiritually i've confronted what i think of as the void, a place that is never filled by activity, money, experience. . .even love. although, during moments when i gave myself over fully to love, the void seems to go somewhere else.

Christianity boils down to this: If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior then you will be able to join him in the kingdom of heaven. It's as simple as that. If you truly believe in Christ, then you will be saved.


on the one hand, there are more aspects to the ultimate expression of christian faith than just this. there is a huge weight placed on the concept of original sin. humans are flawed animals, though we were supposedly made in God's image. part of the idea behind faith in the christ is that because of our flawed nature, we required that God create a perfect human. this perfect human was all God, and all human at the same time, allowing for perfection unattainable to us. what christianity is about, i think--and i apologize if im doing a bad job here--is having faith that such a sacrifice was necessary, and that such a sacrifice took place.

draginol, i also think that christians who tend toward "excessive" thinking have a difficult time ignoring other possible dynamics. it's not so much that these christians don't believe in the sacrifice or it's significance, but that other possibilities seem possible, as well.

again, i was not born to christianity, and i do not mean to blaspheme. all aspects of religion, spirituality, and philosophy fascinate me, and when i find anyone with the patience to deal with my stream of thoughts i tend to take advantage. but i want to say one more thing:

i think people are too hard on themselves (and others) about faith. i was traveling in jerusalem six years ago, and i went to the western wall of solomon's temple to pray. it is as holy a place as i could conceive, made so either by God or by human devotion. i was moved by the flocks of devout pilgrims, and the locals as well, who make prayer here a lifetime of devotion. as i approached the wall i first felt a tremendous wave of purpose in my heart and gut; then i noticed an orthodox jew praying on my left. he was swaying and speaking ritual words by memory. but he was yawning, looking around, scatching himself. i was offended. i was thinking, why the hell pretend, asshole? you're wasting your entire life praying when none of it means anything to you, and your lack of passion cheapens my own emotion.

later, i realized it was me who was the asshole, not him, and it was my faith that was lacking, not his. my faith was dependent on a single visit to a place, and a manufactured expectation of what i was supposed to feel. his faith was exactly what made me mad in the first place.

faith is not the same thing as belief. you can have belief and no faith, like i did in jerusalem, or faith and no belief. what that man believed, i'll never know. but speaking a prayer, dressing a certain way, attending a church in spite of doubts or fears. . .that is what faith is. waking up in the morning when you do not want to, putting down the cigarette, loving someone who has just infuriated you. or choosing to particpate in some religion even though you doubt your own beliefs. these are all acts of faith.

TBT