queezendorf: yes, it is our decision, our power and even our responsibility to limit abuse. As I said, 1 is the lowest possible score. 10 is the highest possible score. When somebody rates something a 1, it's for two possible reasons: either because that skin is indeed the worst possible skin ever made, or the person has a personal agenda. 

We do not give the priviledge of rating skins to everybody. Only to a selected few whom we trust (class Apprentice and above, along with people who purchased the WC subscription). No, this is not freedom of speech. If it was, everybody would be allowed to rate. Not the case.  We trust people, we expect them to rate with maturity and integrity. If we find that some people consistently abuse of their rating priviledge and are therefore not worthy of the trust we put in them, it is our right and obligation to take it away.

im so glad i decided not to contribute much of my time here anymore... this place really is getting very bad =/

Well, if you feel this is unfair, I won't hold you. But you must understand that I am talking about abuse. When a skin is rated overall 8 and somebody gives it a 1, it makes you raise eyebrows. But when that person does it all the time, then this person isn't being fair. He's trying to hurt on purpose. And that's bad and should be responded to. Your ratings have always been fair, queezendorf, I trust your integrity with your ratings. Although I do find you are quite generous with the 10, but for skins that are generally rated 8, 9 or 10 overall anyway; so it's not in the least condemnable.
I fear you are misunderstanding this post. It's not about policing or controling how people rate. It's about preventing abuse. About trying to avoid having people using their rating priviledge to get back at somebody they don't like, or rating low for some other personnal reasons that have little to do with art appreciation.

We have noticed that there is way too many 1's and 10's given out. They should be exception. In theory, only a extreme few skins should deserve one or the other

. This is #1 of your post Paxx.

The difficulty is, most of the time people look at the current rate. Give it a 10 on instant, is a motive to downgrade. I have a problem with that, and really is effecting the average rating way too much. If it gets a "7", you will see people rate higher if they like it and lower if they don't. To avoid such behaviour as giving a "1" to a "10" I think my suggestion is a good one. Let the admin who thinks it is a "10" rate it as a "10" after it has given an initial "7", because he/she thinks the skin should be able to be seen to visitors too.

queezendorf: yes, it is our decision, our power and even our responsibility to limit abuse

If you understand the position you have, coming once from the skinning part, you must understand you have to use exactly that power in all humbleness with the intent to make things better for all skinners. If one of you is starting to dabble in grey areas the admins group is suddenly on a slope where morals and personal and economical interests can be favoured.

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Why do you only pick out the word "Power" from Paxx's post to focus on? By doing that, you change the context of the word and then call into question the admin's integrity. Unfair.

You should re-read the post, and take on board the context of the entire sentence, which also includes the words "decision" and "responsibility". Personally I find your post insulting. I take it you think you could do a better job? Well, I can assure you, that's not going to happen.

If you believe any admin or moderator of this site is guilty of "dabbling in grey areas", you should contact the owners of the site privately, and not make accusations on the public message board.

Lecrayon, so if someone has a spat with another skinner on the discussion board and then goes and rates all that other skinner's work as a 1 out of malice, should nothing be done? That is the sort of abuse that has prompted Admin's/mods looking at the ratings and on occasion taking action.




[Message Edited]

I am giving up. There was no insult meant, there was just something to think about. If you can't say anything towards admins only to get an insulting and warning there is really nothing to say by anyone. BoXXi, I believe, in the copy and paste says exactly those words, decision, power, responsibility. Sig, I never said something about the people that rate a "1" constantly. I just said what I said. About dabbling, I only said if you are not humble in your position you might be tempted! Nothing I said about guilty! I really get annoyed when my posts are misinterpreted and then I get insulted. >

I really get annoyed when my posts are misinterpreted and then I get insulted

I imagine Paxx feels the same way.

so now I have insulted Paxx too?

Not worth my time anymore this thread

I don't feel insulted, but maybe a bit frustrated.

If you understand that we want to avoid abuse, then what is the point of your posts? I don't get it.
I keep saying that all we want is protect you and other against malicious people who abuse of their rating priviledge by skinking the ratings of your good skins.
All I said is that as admins, it is not only in our power to protect you and other artists against those people, but it's actually our responsability.  Why are we admins in the first place, if it wasn't to act for the best interest of all the great artists of this site. 
I keep saying this, I try to reword it, I try to make it clear. But yet you were arguing for I don't understand what reason.

So, no I don't feel insulted, I just don't understand why anybody would argue about this.  Would you argue with the police if they arrested somebody who broke into your house?

Paxx...why don't you attempt to have the guts to contact the offending user directly instead of making blanket policy? Pathetic. You’re like the boss that has one or two workers that always screws-up or comes in late. Instead of actually addressing the issue with the offending party, they proceed to really upset the innocent/good workers because he made blanket statements or policies and applied them to everyone. Heck, it could be me. I’ve done exactly what you’re talking about once or twice. A rating is an opinion. Either let us vote how we want or take the privilege away…I will rate how I darn well like until the system is removed. As usual, you never cease to amaze me.

/me *puts on body armour*

i have been watching this thread for a while now.

Orion, would you agree that *if* person A applied a 1 rating to every skin by person B that this might be a problem?

perhaps person B's skins are just really bad. however, if the average rating on person B's skins is 8 then this suggests one of:

* person A's tastes are such that they think that these works cannot get any worse
* person A doesn't understand the rating system scale, and thinks 1 is a high rating
* they have a personal agenda

someone applying a 10 across the board in the same way leads to the same questions.

so, if you agree that person A is probably abusing their rating privilege, what do you suggest?

it seems that the Admins (not just Paxx) are saying that when they find what they believe to be abuse of the system, they are trying to correct this problem.

Orion and anyone else who is questioning this, can you please address my "what is person A doing" question in a polite and reasonable manor?

if we can agree that person A applying 1's wholesale is a problem, then what do people suggest we do?
* nothing, which is likely to upset and emotionally hurt the artists
* something, which means the admins are stepping into the line of fire on behalf of the admins

i don't see everything that goes on here. i don't claim to know everything. but i personally see NO reason to accuse the admins of anything other than trying their best in often difficult situations.

/me welcomes constructive replies

something, which means the admins are stepping into the line of fire on behalf of the admins

that should have been "on behalf of the artists"

Thank you feline.

"Orion and anyone else who is questioning this, can you please address my "what is person A doing" question in a polite and reasonable manor?"

I'm not questioning the fact that rating abuse takes place.

My only point is that paxx should have kept his mouth shut and dealt with the problem directly, forcefully, and privately.

The solution is simple, email the abuser and warn them. If they do not stop, ban them. I point back to my original example about the incompetent boss/manager above.

You should not display the rating before a user gives its opinion, and it should not be allowed for users that see the rating to vote, at least for a session or for a day. The voters will not bother to close browser and vote again, I think.
So if you pay, you''l get to vote; wow, this thing will make me instantly a subscriber, exactly like upgrading to Xp, because I am missing apphelper.dll:)

Everyone has their own opinion as to what is or is not a good skin. They also have their own method of determining a rating. My own is something I apply regardless of who the author is or what the current rating of their skin is. My system is as follows:

Up to 3 marks for appearence
Up to 3 marks for useability
Up to 3 marks for skill level
1 additional mark for something extraordinary which has already gained 9 marks.

For me a really good score will start at 6. A ten will be rare, so will a 1 - but I'm not opposed to giving either if I think it is a fair mark. So no-one need be offended if I only gave them a 6 - it means I like their work!

My system suits me. Each to his own as they say. At least it gives me a chance of some consistency in rating.

#38  by  Orion - 6/4/2003 7:38:40 AM You’re like the boss that has one or two workers that always screws-up or comes in late. Instead of actually addressing the issue with the offending party, they proceed to really upset the innocent/good workers because he made blanket statements or policies and applied them to everyone.

Would you agree that being a good boss also means that you should post the rules so everyone can see them so that everyone understands the rules.  This is a basic preventive measure that Paxx has taken. Maybe some people didn't realize they were breaking the rules.   Could you imagine if no speed limit signs were posted.  Hmm, shall I go 35 or 65.  I'll try 65 and see what happens.  Next thing you know you are being pulled over for speeding.  All of this could have been prevented if the Speed Limit was posted.

Paxx, thanks for posting the Speed Limit!

A competent boss/manager treats his staff as intelligent beings and respectfully has open discussion of issues of concern.

The incompetent one just says 'to heck with it' and fires anyone he considers has crossed the invisible line of his own making.

Orion....post #38 crosses that arbitrary invisible line of 'personal insult'.....try to abstain from further.

Harsh wording to get a point across can be tempered with the ubiquitous 'smiley'.....I use them often to soften or lessen the hurt of a comment.

Try it some time....

Orion - I'm not questioning the fact that rating abuse takes place. My only point is that paxx should have kept his mouth shut and dealt with the problem directly, forcefully, and privately.

as has already been pointed out, that means that there is no clear public statement of policy on this site.

as other threads and discussions have clearly shown, if there is a site policy isn't clearly stated and clearly posted, then people can and do get very upset when this policy is applied. they complain "no one told me", etc. sometimes the policy seems like simple common sense. regardless of how obvious it seems, if it is stated clearly, then people cannot claim the info isn't there. they may not have read it, but at least we can point them at it when the questions and complaints start flying.

with regard to specific individuals, i have not noticed Paxx name anyone in public. perhaps the admins have been naming in public and i missed it, but i suspect that the admins are emailing people privately, and not posting names publicly.

Orion, please note that before now Jafo has had to publicly address people on this board about "problems" since private emails to their listed email account bounced.

maybe they would feel better if everyone would jsut let them have the last word..

[sarcasm]
I now understand the “speed limit”. I will only use the numbers between 5 and 5 to rate skins unless there is a blank screenshot and a virus inside the WBA…in that case I will give a 4. If the screen or downloaded WBA gives me a financial boost or some other substantial impact in my life I might be compelled to give it a 6. But I would appreciate it if the admins would be so kind as to add .5 increments to the ratings. Of course, this entire rating scheme is thrown off if it’s raining…so bear with me while I get the hang of this…
[/sarcasm]

Jafo wrote: "Orion....post #38 crosses that arbitrary invisible line of 'personal insult'.....try to abstain from further."

My bad...won't happen again. Sorry paxx…

Jafo wrote: "Harsh wording to get a point across can be tempered with the ubiquitous 'smiley'.....I use them often to soften or lessen the hurt of a comment."

I get your point, but sometimes I don’t want to lessen the impact. Due to real life, I can't spend much time here....but every time I do visit, there is some public melodrama like this. It's really sappy, sad, and high schoolish…and yes, it does bother me sometimes that the admins (in this case paxx) don’t know how to handle the situation. (translation on this statement below)

Feline wrote: "Orion, please note that before now Jafo has had to publicly address people on this board about "problems" since private emails to their listed email account bounced."

That's a horrible excuse. Simple: if a user does something, you try and email or message them, and if it bounces, you ban them. I doubt (but would like to be corrected if I’m wrong) that there are very many users guilty of this "abuse". Look, I have been a systems and network admin of large enterprises for many years now, so I speak from experience on the subject of “user management”

However, as a result of this, I guess I do understand that this is not the same user base that I am used to...and much different management style and environment. I see that I cannot hold you to any sort of user or site management style or watermark that may exist in my head. I do completely understand that you can run your site how you like…but I may disagree from time to time. I recognize and respect this AND I will try and keep it in mind in the future.

P.S. I still disagree. “Uh, I’d like to have an argument please…”
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Thanks for heeding, Bob...

The casual passer-by gets an entirely different impression of the site to that of the bunkered-down battle-weary veterans of many a skirmish...

You want an argument?....That's two doors down...this is contradictions.

No it isn't

Yes it is....