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US is going to war tomarrow... dang...

US is going to war tomarrow... dang...

opps

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Reply #126 Top
Frogboy I think you're wasting your breath, but.... This thread really troubled me earlier because people stopped being objective and turned to insults. For those people I don't care what they think and when I don't care they don't matter. Sorry all you history revisionist

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Reply #127 Top
Finally, paxx, it's good to see someone talking some sense. You managed to get across a couple of the points I tried to make in a much better way.

At the end of the day, Americans will believe what their government and the media want them to believe. It's one of the main problems with a hightened sense of patriotic pride - it can cloud objective thought. I'm not saying that Americans can't think for themselves, but they seem to be a lot more susceptible to the spin their government feed them. In this country, I think we're a lot less likely to believe what our government tell us without independent proof.
Reply #128 Top
Anyway, I'm off to bed to get some sleep. Let's just hope there's a world to wake up to this time next week...
Reply #129 Top
OH I see Paxx. The reason I'm for action is I'm brainwashed by marketing. Your opposition, however, is due to deep thinking.

Right...

That's the thing about the "elite left" I've noticed. Those who disagree with them always assume that the common man is just a week minded sheep ready to be molded by the power of the day.

It could't possibly be that Americans truly believe that Iraq is a threat after 12 years of consideration and is expressing its desire to rid the world of him through its democratically elected government. Because you don't agree with that view and therefore no reasonable, rational person could possibly hold an opinion that differs from yours?

And no, 9 votes in the UNSC wouldn't have done it because a veto is still a veto. Not that I particularly care what Camaroon or Guinea think on the issue (which shows the absurdity of the UNSC in the first place). I'm sure if we had gone in and intervened in Rwanda to prevent the killing of hundreds of thousands of people (Which the UN failed to do anything about) we'd see the same claims.

This is precisely what Bakerstreet is talking about. If it's white people that are being slaughtered, then we apparently can't spare any expense in saving htem. But if they're not white, apparently all sorts of hoops have to be jumped through to save them. If Rwanda or Iraq were in Europe they would have been dealt with years ago with or without UN authorization and no one would say boo about it. Is Iraqi life or Rwanada life less valuable? I'd say no. They're just as important as a Kosovar. And even if you take all the geopolitical reasons out of it, the bottom line is that Saddam has caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of his people in his quest to obtain weapons of mass destruction. He needs to be removed.

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Reply #130 Top
what i dont understand is this idea. Iraq and Korea have weapons of mass distruction, so? America has the second most nucleur weapons out of any other country. Does America want to be the only powerful country on the face of the earth? According to them when they posses weapons its 'self defence' if another country posess's weapons its a 'threat to peace'. George W. Bush THE AMERICAN LEADER is a threat to peace; he is the person in the UN most enthusiastic to go to war.
Reply #131 Top
BTW, Paxx, I am not surprised you favor the EU. The EU is set up so that it does not have to be directly elected by the people. Those "masses" you apparently believe are so easily brainwashed.

History has shown that governments who are directly responsible to the people are less aggressive when compared to their overall power than governments whose leaders are insulated from the people.

The EU constitution requires few if any direct elections of those in charge. I'll put my trust in the people thank you. Not elites. But yea, you hope Europe becomes miltarily strong eh? Yea, Europe's been a real force for peace when they've been militarily strong... Sheesh. Paxx, do you recognize just how anti-American you really sound? US spends months working through the UN and then takes action in Iraq nd the US is a huge threat but France invades the Ivory Coast at the same time unilaterally and that's apparently okay? Sheesh.

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Reply #132 Top
im not tryin to be anti american here im just saying they shouldn't immediatly point fingers read my posts 93 and 97 and ull see that im fairly nuetral on this issue
Reply #133 Top
MrGupps: It's very simple: Dictators with WMD are dangerous. Democracies with them are much less so.

The US doesn't threaten to nuke people. North Korea lobs missiles over Japan in "tests". If you can't see the difference there's nothing I cna do for you.

Moral equivalence is a dangerous thing. It's easy to talk about these things as if they are purely theoretical things. But let's face it, a world without the US and UK would be a dramatically worse place. Like it or not the US and UK have been a force for good in this world. It was, after all, the US and UK that created the United Nations to begin with. As well as the other international institutions that have today. As well as the worldwide movement towards representative government.

Too many people take these things for granted and I thnk that's a real shame and slightly dangerous. The world we have today, that is relatively peaceful, didn't happen by accident. People throw around terms liek Nazi's and Communists as if they are just political labels. But they were once real forces. Forces that were nearly successful in conquering the world. Do you think any of us would be able to have what we have today under those systems? And those systems were defeated not by diplomacy. Not by the French. But largely by the US and UK.

When it comes to identifying and vanquishing evil in the world, the US and UK have a pretty good track record I'd say.

France, btw, didn't think Hitler was evil enough to even fight for their own capital. Their track record when it comes to dealing with world menaces is terrible. During the 80s there were plenty of people who said Reagan was going to start World War III. Instead, the Soviet Union fell and now eastern Europe is free and so is Russia and other parts. It's no wonder they side with the US today. And think of the changes that has brought. Even here on WinCustomize -- SkinStudio is developed by Adam in Poland. Think we would be able to work together, over the Intenret today if it weren't for that "warmonger" Ronald Reagan?

There are bad people in the world. We must not play the game of moral equivalence. It is a dangerous game that leads to complacency. Accusing the US of being a threat to the world ignores history.

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Reply #134 Top
Grayhaze, you know I love you, but saying "Americans will believe what their government and the media want them to believe." is quite offensive.

I take everything that "my" government does with a grain of salt. I also don't believe in everything they do (especially during the Clinton years.) I am patriotic, but that doesn't mean that I believe everything the media and government pushes my way. It doesn't take a brain child to know that the media is going to push for war (why wouldn't they? gives them something to report about). And, do people really think that, with technology as it is, we don't get our "news" from other places, too? Do people think that it all comes from just the US? I read articles from all over the world. My opinions are my own. I read the stats, and read about the suffering (not just reported by the US). It doesn't take much to see that Saddam is killing his own country, and there is no way that they can over throw him. Bush has requested Saddam to leave. There would be no war if Saddam would step down and leave, but he won't. He doesn't want peace.
Reply #135 Top
"It's very simple: Dictators with WMD are dangerous."

Hey!!! Oh... dangerous not Dangeruss, had me a bit woriied there...
Reply #136 Top
Hehehe

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Reply #137 Top
Yes, we brain dead Americans will believe anything our government tells us, and we like to buy bridges, from strangers, in dark alleys too!
Reply #138 Top
Well, Frogboy, sometimes you can't see the forest when you're nose is facing a tree.
What I mean is that if you can't see how patriotic Americans are, you need to step back a few steps and look again. Nothing wrong with patriotism, I guess, except that it can easily be manipulated.

And BTW, he who's house is made of glass should not throw stones at other people's house. You're the one who said that anybody who doesn't share your opinion is misinformed, not me.
Reply #139 Top
War vs Peace.

I don't want war at all. Yet I have seen nothing really from those who don't want war along side with me to really prove why the US should not go in. Even this artical ( http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/EdDesk.nsf/All/01A33C10272BF7A2CA256CE500837A10 ) dos not really show much except someone in the know doesn't want war.

I hear how Bush is evil or Americans are being brainwashed. Conflicts. I hear how war will kill many people and possibly start a world war.

I still find myself not wanting war. I do belive that it can be avoided, but the side I am on has not relly come up with a solution for that. Inspectors are not police officers; they are there to see what Saddam gives them not to find anything.


Is it possible that the want for peace really means, "As long as I don't get involved, they won't target me?"
Reply #140 Top
When it comes to any governmental structure, I view it with a skeptical and mistrustful eye, especially my own in the USA, and I try not to understand these times with an ethnocentric skew. I was a Vietnam vet caught up in the leftist revolution of the peace movement back in the 60s and early 70s. So yes, I cry for peace. But I also understand the need for war, this war, and need is past due.

I was wondering paxx, which niche would you place me in?
Reply #141 Top
I think Busg totally handled this situation wrong. He is alienating the very poeple we need to stop the terrorist from acting out thier deads. The war on terror is not directly linked to Iraq. The threat Iraq poses is the same threat the crumbaling soviet unoin gave; unloyal troops with thier own agenda, lack of security of weapons stockpiles, ease of sale for soldiers looking for an extra buck


Iraq isn't a threat because of a terrorist connection, it is a threat because of the ability to sell or just give WMD to anyone.

1)
An Iraqi general decides to sell a VX agent to someone. Saddam doesn't know or care.

2)
Iraq hides a stockpile of weapons. The regime colapes and know one except the people who hide the weapons knows there are there. They sell them or someone finds it

3)
Iraq has been under major disarmament sactions for over 15 years with over 10 resolution

4)
Unlike France, Germany, Russia, USA, Mexico, Canada, South Korea, England who have weapons, Iraq is unstable and more likely to use it on its own people or other nations under attack to control

5)
There is a global network of terrorists who are willing to buy.


As against the war that I am no one on my side has yet to say Saddam has no weapons and prove it, that Saddam has a stable country, that Saddam treats his people fairly, thats Saddam's military wouldn't just sell or give weapons on the open black market.

Can someone give me something that clearly states that peace has a chance against Saddam?

Reply #143 Top
And BTW Frogboy, you totally misinterpreted what I asid about EU.
I am not pro EU. I am pro balance of power. I am for having two diffent military powers to police each other, make sure no one steps out of line. I am extermely uncomfortable with having one one country having all elbow room to do what it pleases.
Or else, if the US is going to rule the World by itself, lets have the World elect the president then, whouldn't that be fair?

mackerson: I don't know you so I can't say. I haven't put anybody in any niche. I just said that the more one is patriotic, the easier he can be manipulated. It's true for any patriotism, from Islamic patriotism, French patriotism, Canadian patriotism, any.
And no, I'm not patriotic. I just happen to live in Canada, I don't feel any special bond for this country. It's just where I live. I consider myself a citizen of this planet. And no, it's not BS.
Reply #145 Top
btw frogboy is what i said in posts 93 and 97 accurate?
I heard about it in civics class just thought i should share what i knew about the issue
Reply #146 Top
I'd rather have the US with the elbow room rather than Iraq, or a 100 other countries for that matter. I've seen the masses at work to stop a democratic government's actions against the will of the people...
Reply #147 Top
Paxx:
You are correct, I do believe that the majority of people here who are anti-war are not very well informed on the issues. That doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with my view is misinformed. I can only judge based on what is written here.

However, you are stating explicitly that those who disagree with you are brainwashed. And unlike me, where I present evidence arguing forth my position, you don't back up your claim with any evidence.

Sure, you miss blaance of power. I suppose you miss the USSR then? You say you're not pro-EU, you're just pro balance of power. The USSR provide a balance. Yea, those were the days..

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Reply #148 Top
"Doctor Strangelove and how I learned to love the bomb"....
Reply #149 Top
"I really hope that EU develops strong, both economically and militarely. Only then will we live in peace, when World powers are balanced."

paxx, we had that close, strong balance for decades with the US and the Soviet Union and it was terrifying (at least to a former Strategic Air Command bomber toad who took off more than once with a bombbay full of nukes not knowing if we would be turned around or not). balance of power in itself doesn't help much unless both parties are reasonable.

BTW - we have never given a thought to invading canada since the old "Fifty-four-forty or Fight" days, and fortunately we had the sense to quickly drop that notion way back then.

i do agree that i would not use the past six months as a primer in a diplomat training course. i believe if we look backward we can see many times where we've handled things much more adroitly on the diplomatic front.
i suspect that no amount of diplomacy will accomplish anything concretely good with respect to saddam, so the question is: do i go through the negotiating hoops and demonstrate to everyone what i already know is going to happen - nothing. diplomacy usually answers "yes" to that question.

Reply #150 Top
If anyone would like to thank the good guys,you can do it at this link,I did.
The good guys are the troops on the side of the US.
I say thanks to all the troops from all the coalition country's.
http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html

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