wombat_1: finally... was beginnin to think you had wandered off for good.

Jafo: In that light, i can agree to a point. The military and political benefits Hussein was on the verge of getting *because* of his oil is a large part of this. Anti-war Europe had been whining about removing sanctions, and if that had happened then he would have bought lots of toys from them. We've already had to deal with a few, sanctions or not.

so, if you are saying this is about what the oil might have bought for him, I'd have to agree with ya.

I don't think we'll have an ounce of leverage after the war, though. The rest of the oil producing nations would never stand for it, they are sour enough about all this as it is. We're fighting Saddam now, I have a feeling we'll be fending off Syria or worse if we abuse our position afterward.

Baker...yes, essentially.
Whoever controls that oil and where it goes and what is done with the revenue...THAT is what the War is 'about'.

If only we [as in UK/US/AUS] can get rid of Saddam, so the oil revenue can be used for the Iraqi people.
Places like Bahrain or Kuwait....Oil-rich, pro-West, still Moslem, but able to assimilate well, internationally.
Iraq 'could' be a wealthy, stable nation, doing what more far-seeing Oil nations are doing....looking towards the next 'money crop'....tourism...

Jafo: heck, man, that's Babylon. sheesh, wanna talk historical value? I'd go. Wasn't eden described as being near the Euphrates? How's that for tourist value?

**

GOOD NEWS!

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02114599.htm

3 of the journalists were released. Score one for paxx. Also the US Rangers and SEALs rescued a female POW that had been listed as MIA. She was in one of those iraqi 'hospitals'. gives me the creeps. no word on the others, though.

they found a number of other missing with her, none alive and they gave no exact number..

I see many valid points being made here and most of them center around the U.S. in a large way profiting from the oil in Iraq... now it is my understanding as the propaganda machine would have me believe that we don't REALLY need their oil at all.. So where is all this Oil for Blood stuff coming from? I believe in the positive intentions of the United States of America in putting down a rabid dog and I am not cynical enough to believe that we are only doing it so that we can gain some major control over just another oil supply of which we have more than enough to draw from already.

AMEN JamMeister33

With that I'm off to have sweet, safe...dreams because I live protected by some OF THE BRAVEST MEN AND WOMEN ON EARTH.

OH YEAH...USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA!

AMEN AGAIN

WOW...PATRIOTS ARE NOT DEAD

mum...

jennyc...try to remember that English and Australian troops are there, as well...eg, the Aussies are either SAS deep behind the 'lines' doing their 'thing', or are quietly disarming sea mines....by hand.....nothing 'special', just doing their job...

Or in other words, you should be yelling "UK" and "Oz" as well.

and in their off-time they clear Iraq of dangerous dingos and throw more prawns on the barby!

G'Day!

you forgot tossing Fosters too!

Well well well... Thanks guys for standing up for me. Really, it makes me feel all warm inside. I am happy that I have erarned your respect, although we disagree in our opinions.

Now, I would just like to make a few things clear. My thought process is not that simple, and it certainly isn't black and white.

About peace:
Yes, my ideal, my dream is to live in a world with no war, no cruely and no prejudice. I could write a long speech similar to M. L. King' "I have a dream", but I'm too lazy. But, the bottom line is that I do have a dream and I try to personnaly live by it. But I'm not naive either. I am actually quite cynical about the reality of things. I know perfectly well that the governments of this World are too keen on power and domination that such a dream is hardly ever likely to happen.

About this war in Irak:
I do not question the fact that Hussein's regime is a tyranical one. I have heard that some 100 people are killed EVERY DAY by his secret (or not so secret) services. I do not question the fact that the Iraki people want him gone. I know he his capable of pretty much anything to stay in power. But I do not believe he is a mad man. I actually think he is probably quite intelligent. I do believe he is fanatical and racist. To him, the only good people in Irak are the little minority of Arab suni. Everything he has done in the past 30 years had the purpose of making his people (Arab suni) first rate citizens controling the country, while the others (Kurds, shia, etc.) should only exist to serve the formers. Yes I think he is cruel and would not hesitate one second to kill anybody that opposes him. What I don't believe is that he rapes women for pleasure, that he kills men for entertainment, that he eats children for breakfast. What I do believe is that any Shia or any Kurd would do the very same thing if they were to be given the same power. What I do believe is that the Molah's of Iran are doing the exact same thing, that the Baas leader of Syria has an identical regime that Saddam Hussien's, that there are probably as many executions in Saudi Arabia than in Iraq.
No, I do not question that Iraq has a tyranical governement and that its people are oppressed. I do not question that almost all the countries in the region has the very same kind of government and an equally oppressed population.
I do not question that indeed, it would be nice if we could just go in there and get rid of all those oppressing regimes.
But, what I DO question is the Pentagons's motives for invading Iraq. NOT to liberate the Iraqi people, that is just propaganda for the American people, who are just too good to believe their governments could ever do anything bad. Yes, the American people are good. The proof is that they are willing to accept spending 100 billion dollars, getting hundreds if not thousands of American countrymen killed, for the sole purpose of liberating other human beings (the Iraki people) from a tyranical government. Hat's up to the Americans people for that. But unfortunately, their government doesn't deserve their trust.
As I said earlier, I may have an ideal in my dreams, but I am cynical about reality. Money runs this World, not ideas. Yes, this war is about controling the region and the oil. Control Iraq, and you control the 2nd largest oil supply in the World. You can then influence its price. Without Iraq, OPEC is meaningless. Make this war successful and make Iraq an example, and you'll send the message to neighbouring countries to keep a low profile and not to raise their voice too loud. Control Iraq, and then Jordan and Palestine are squeezed between the Israel military and the American power. Put an end to the Palestinian problem.
This war isn't specifically about oil. It's about power and money.

I love the American people, just as I love all the people of this planet. I just don't trust their government, just I don't trust any government on this planet.

paxx? you been hanging around brad lately? this is way too long from you, me needs to come back and read this one for sures! hehe

but to keep this on topic... I wonder what "real" thoughts go on in Bush's head at night knowing he opened this big can of worms? and I wonder when this will be over & done with

It won't be over and done with till all the despots of the world are removed. Not just Iraq. Anyone who believes this is a one off is being naive.

paxx, your a good person and an even better human being in my opinion...

Hi again... first I just want to ask this war's defenders in America to explain this thing : here in Europe we get all the
facts of BOTH sides and I'd like to think we're getting them straight. The thing ,though, we hear every day is that you people in America get, not just the half of it, but less, because there is such "a big american propaganda going on". -it's not that the Iraqi officials don't use propaganda, it's that they have less means to do it -the iraqi tv is periodically bombarded. So my question is, how can people that don't have cable -from what I've heard a texan mother saw her son captive not from an american channel first, but from a cable channel from Philippines- and are not using the net -not you of course- develop a complete opinion, cause we hear that 70% of american people are in favor of this war.

As for the matter of oil, I'd like to remind those who know, and inform those who don't, that the taken over oil wells right now are being run by a company that used to have in top position, no other than ... the US vice president (huh??? that was my first thought...)... you think about it...

In a previous post I talked about censorship... Peter Arnett and Madonna's new video make glorious examples! The first one,being laid of from NBC for saying that Americans find many difficulties and Madonna's new video being cut in some scenes...


Bakerstreet you said in a previous post that "the US Rangers and SEALs rescued a female POW that had been listed as MIA. She was in one of those iraqi 'hospitals'. gives me the creeps." -I copied here your words...- Think being a 7 years old iraqi girl in such an iraqi "hospital"... but you're not there just to have some wounds treated... you're there to have your right leg amputated because it was severy damaged from a bombing... that's the little girl I saw on the news last night... was she a great enemy?????


And one last thing I want to ask: do you americans like being considered right now as "a big bully" from many people?? do you
enjoy that???? I don't get it... please explain...that's what we're getting here...

Jafo
I don't think you called me naive in the extreme, but if you had, you wouldn't be the first. (I know you were saying to believe in something would be naive in the extreme).

Perhaps I should explain myself and my position, and why I asked you what I did.

First of all to say, that I haven't ever really participated in a forum until this, so I am kind of a newbie at it, even for being a few years on the net.

My background is of one traveled abroad and of one of being a host to many people around the world.

This is how I was raised, and to some degree how I still live. In any regard, I was raised with sensitivities towards others from other countries. I never said anything negative to the people in my home, or when I was in theirs in regards to their country, customs or their governments.

I think all this is new to me, not to be open, and express your doubts, but when some do here, they seem to do it with a rather resolved conclusion.

This is a multi - international place, people from all over are represented here. Its kinda hard for me, and I almost feel the 'attack' agaisnt where I am from.

I grew up different I suppose. I used to wear a button as a teen, "shake the world, start with my hand", and on it was the back ground of the world, with two hands shaking.

I remember one trip I went to in Spain. I was asked to be interviewed for a newspaper, which I agreed to. I frustrated the reporter so much, he tried to provoke me to say things bad about there or here. He wanted me to be critical in its differences, and all I could do was say what was in my heart, how much we are the same every where we go. In the end, I won him over, even though he was frustrated, and the interview turned into a two parter, hehe.

I don't know
its just very different for me, this.
I hope you understand where I am coming from, and why I asked you to explain to me certain relativities that I just didn't get.

I think the oil thing is not worth the 'spice' it is standing on.

(get it spice??.. oil... DUNE??)

If there is a selfish reason for the US to invade Iraq it would be for stabilization. Now don't think stabilization is alsways good. If there is a regiem in place that treats its people badly and is a threat BUT isn't going anywhere and is 'contained' then it helps world markets and businesses because businesses love stabability.

So, the US(A) conspiracy is to control the middle east and stabilize it to a more 'Washinton" friendly area and while using that influence on oil, for the most part other trade around the world will benefit from new laborors, friendly travel indistry and commerce without the assimetrical threat of terrorism or hostil counties.

Now how is that for a conspiracy.

yvonne2222 : I have no idea what country you live in, so I don't know what flavor of anti-US propaganda you are being fed. I said it gives me the creeps because the 'hospitals' they keep american POWs in are equipped with car batteries and other such great things to torture people with. We've already captured at least one that was used for that purpose.

I also don't know what led to the harm caused the the 7 year-old girl you mention. It could be any one of 3 things.

a) she could have been harmed in one of our attacks. U.S> forces are taking losses to prevent that.
she could have been harmed by in-fighting between Iraqis or 'motivation' by Republican guard. They were shelling people who were leaving basra for aid.
c) she could have been used a s a human shield by Iraqi forces, as is happening on a constant basis.

Listen, no offense, but there is no oil pumping out of southern Iraq, and the UN has an agreement on the table to handle the food-for-oil program once it does. IF ANYONE in this business is brainwashed, it is the hordes of (i'm sorry... ,ignorant) European people that believe Germany, France and the rest are anti-war because they are pro-peace.

If the US is being accused of having some shadowy plan to steal all the oil, or set up a puppet government there, how much worse are *evil* people who have already made over *and* under-the-table deals with Saddam Hussein to buy his oil and supply him with whatever he needs to continue his hateful career. There is a reason the best planes he had were Mirages. There is a reason France and others were screaming for sanctions to be lifted throughout the 90s.

We pay billions to have our forces protecting and helping people all over the world. As long "Europe" lets circumstances like Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Rwanda and the rest go without a whisper, nay, as long as they try and stop anyone from preventing the wholesale slaughter of innocents, they'll be what they are: opportunists without compassion.

There hasn't been a military intervention in recent history that France hasn't whined about, or refused to help at all. I don't think Chirac or any anti-war European leader gives a fig for the Iraqi people, and I think he would sleep well knowing that Saddam gasses them regularly, as long as they are bettered by it.

So, in short, how do Europeans feel knowing the rest of the world sees them destroying McDonald's restaurants that no Americans work in, violently protesting a war when they could just as easily be at a G7 meeting or a soccer tournament, and happily ignoring most of the awful conflicts that are going on all over the world?

I'm sorry, but when Paxx talks about peace, I listen, he's earned my respect. The 'European' perspective means *dick* to me, since they have proved their ambivalence and carelessness in the past, and have a great deal to gain from the suffering of the Iraqi people. We'll see if you come back when Russia has their next great 'police action' in Chechnya. oh, wait, they never stopped the last one... Is this *really* about peace to you?

oh and I am all for peace. I would love to live in Peace. BUT, if it looks like there is a threat to that Peace and all alternitives have been vanquished, I will fight, not just for me but also for the person I am fighting against and his children so our future can be brighter.

confusing??

the way I am is if I want Peace then I have to be willing to share it with others. If other Peace is in jeapordy then mine is.


For me Sept 11 proved that we can not live in a world where other suffer so greatly. Those who hi jacked those planes for the most part did not know what they where set out to do. Most would have never been a terrorist if thier country or families had a better life or chance to better themselves peacefully. Places, as we all know, of lawlessness, lack of human rights, lack of food and work, shelter, education, are breading grounds for terrorists AND more importanly, cults and extreme views.


Make no mistake, the structure of Al Queda and some other terrorist groups (not all) are cult based with a leader in connection with "God" or with a holy purpose.


Sadly, I was in a cult once. So I know the signs of a cult. I know once your in it is very hard to get out. You almost feel it is too late once you realize it is wrong. Then yuo just get deeper until you find yourself on a plane about to do something for God.



Anyhoo, this is why I strongly believe that any area that does not have food, water, shelter, jobs, education, governing laws, a indepentant news agentcies, and an ability to upgrade your lifestyle, there will always be terrorist, regimes, and war.

oh and by the way, if it was really soley about oil, why not just get rid of the sanctions? then Saddam can sell his oil as a part of OPEC and we could just as easlily pay for it?

I guess control of the oil is more important. that is why they are invading Iraq to control the billions owrht of oil and influenc the regoing who dislike them already.

not to mention the trillions of dollars spent to have the war and any occupation to stabilize. that way the oil will stay a certain price and the oil dependant econemy can prosper at a quadtrillion dollars. we are the only ones who benifit from that.

Then in 20 years the oil runs out and a new war starts.

anyone sense the sarcasm??? I tried very hard to put it in there with my opinions.

I mean, gah, can you imagine the reverse?

What if America opposed a French need to help the people of Iraq and then it was found out that there were oil deals on the table worth 60 *billion* dollars? Then, in addition, it was found that numerous allies of the US were known to have funneled military equipment into Iraq despite UN sanctions to the contrary? Can you imagine what these people would be saying about the US; blocking a humanitarian war to make an oil deal with an evil tyrant?

What if an American company had a big deal with one of the factions in the Ivory Coast and our government tried to block their little imperialist 'police action' there? Was France interested in intervening there when it was just Africans being massacred, or did it take a threat on the French civilians who live there?

Can you imagine how much the French government stands to make on that Iraqi oil deal? Can you imagine how much under-the-table lobbying is going on to create this anti-war furor? Enough to ruin an old alliance.

Please, they can make up all the conspiracies they want to, but anti-war Europe is happily visiting Saddam Hussein, giving him presents, and making huge oil deals with him. I would much rather commit wrongs destroying such a regime than *allow* horrors while making money from them.

where is that message board spell checker site anyway?

the one i use is a browser plug-in. It is called IEspell.

Don't kid yourself Bakerstreet. European governments, US government, all the same chacals, just different pockets.