BTW I am sure many on this message board take the time to read and see TV. Honestly that is not enough to get the data you really need to form a opinion based on facts.


If you noticed many outlets are more pro-war than anything and that might scue there information. Other countries show how many civilians died (which is true) while here they show how big the tanks are and over powering the army is (which is also true)

Soooooo.... there might be a little 'spin' if you will on how the news is being reported. Although I do think many news agencies are doing fairly good in reporting facts and not just sesationalism power plays.


anyway... now that we where forced by Bush to basically go into this thing, and for that matter sopport him because we want to win, I hope they make the right decisions and if this is going to be a war then fight to end it. Don't drag it out and make it some sort of 'tit for tat' engagement. Show them why they can not hide behind civilians, and how gerilla warfare only works if you play into it.

This would mean a decision has to be made. This is why I don't like war. it would seem the brain trust in the white house thought war would be clean if the "bad" guys played fair. When you decide to go to war it is because you have decided that you will stoop the the enemies level by fighting him. This is why I'm sayin war, both sides come out losers. It is just a matter of who is the bigger looser. If you going to do it, then get messy cause all you going to do if you don't is make it worst.


This is why for 'clear' aithority it is better when the other is clearly been attacked. Nevertheless, I don't really see any other option. Saddam is dangerous. More so than others because of some of the things I stated previously about life value, comfort level and other factors that make him very dangerous.

I just feel Bush could have handled it better than he did. He clearly seemed to me as a 'warmonger' because to me he made his deciasion in 2002 after calling 3 countries The Axis opf Evil. You can't say something like that and then debate on how to approach it. You already made your decision. So why go to the UN again??? why bother with resolutions that won't work?

paxx,
when I said I personally didn't care to bad mouth my president, you are right, that is my exact personal view...but I meant that in regards to being overseas....

When I travel and meet others from all over, I feel like, I am representing the United States. I try not to be negative-period.

The Dixie Chicks if I am not mistaken were also overseas when they made that comment.

I was only mentioning, my personal view when I travel abroad, I always try to represent where I come from in the best light possible, and at the same time, I blend in the soil of any country where I am visiting, living, or staying with utmost respect for them as well.

Its just a simple policy of mine.

paxx - can you settle a bet for us? the hypothesis is that hanging a yellow ribbon would probably be in violation of Quebec city ordinance, but it's OK to hang one that's jaune.

karma girl
there is a song called
"Tie a Yellow Round the Old Oak Tree"
Its a rather old song, but that is where the idea came from about using yellow ribbons, and that song was way before any Gulf War this one or any one past.

Every since that song was popular, people have been tying yellow ribbons to welcome home loved ones, even when the odds looked bad, to show there was hope, whether it be from war, trips or otherwise.

I had an exchange student in my home for one year, when she went back to Holland, her family welcomed her home with yellow ribbons everywhere. She was pleased.

So, its not totally about war, or troops.

Bangkokboy: lets not go there.

As for the real reason for this war, only time will tell us who was right. Lets see what happens after. Will the future government be an American puppet that gives the US control over the Iraki oil, or will the US allow a really democratically elected government decide what it wants to do with the oil, including keeping it as a national resource?
I'm hoping its the latter, I am. Not sure I believe it, but time will tell us the truth about this war.

paxx
that is a good attitude. Its normal to have preconceived notions. But its wise to usually wait and see. As we get older we learn that more and more.

who cares about the war on Iraq. did anybody see Rumsfeld today? he´s already preparing evidence for starting war on Iran and Syria.

paxx: no offense, but a large percentage of the world, and even a few people arguing here, don't believe the US has a real, democratically elected government anyway. Add to that the utter, evil lies that governments and clerics in the middle east are spreading even now, there is *no* way anyone will accept the government that is created will be anything but an American puppet... that is unless they hate us.

Actually, I think that is pretty much the idea, now. If you oppose the US, you are legit, if you don't, you are a puppet.

****

lol, i wanted to say, too, how insanely funny i find it that people around the world are boycotting McDonald's. Are they aware that the people who own the individual restaurants and work in them are their countrymen? Do they think that the US, corporate owner of the franchise will pay for the damage they do to the restaurants, or will it be the insurance companies in that nation?

When I don't buy french wine or cheese, I buy some other kind. The guy who runs the store still gets paid and he just orders less French products from the importer next month. The importers themselves handle stuff from all over the world, so they will just do the same and reduce their stock in French products.

Anyway, I don't understand 'peace' protesters that mace, fight with, and throw acid at police, destroy property, make death threats, etc. Are the police being attacked somehow responsible for the war? Wanna talk about senseless violence, hippy kids?

IMHO, most of these people are the same useless rich kids that show up at all the world economic summits, world cup tournaments, etc.

There are many in the US that really don't like the idea that we have so many global partnerships, anyway. I think all this anti-US sentiment will go far in making the point that we should cut way back on the money we spend on aid and military support for 'allies', and ramp up that protectionism that was squashed during the NAFTA debate.

I wonder what would happen if things were just left alone?

Iraq will likely get their share of the revenues from their oil. That's usually the way it works. The oil companies that are involved will get their profits too. That's also the way it works. Oil companies don't go into a country and run the business for free. They make billions of dollars. The difference in a US run Iraq and an Iraqi run Iraq is who the oil companies are. Tens of billions in oil contracts with other countries are out the window when the US plants its flag. Then US and British oil companies get the billions that would have gone elsewhere. So if someone brings up oil what they're really referring to is oil contracts which determine who gets the profits, the enormous infrastructure contracts and the ability to determine where the oil goes and at what price. It's not a simple deal of someone "taking" the oil. Plus there's a huge importance in the geopolitical makeup of a region and strategic control. But nobody's suggesting that's why we're at war. Companies affiliated with Condoleza Rice(Chevron), Dick Cheney(Haliburton, Brown & Root) and the Bush/Bin Laden families(Delta Oil, Carlyle) are only getting these billion dollar contracts because they just happen to be in that business...

it's just a coincidence.

and I know that because I heard it on TV today...

The yellow ribbon thing is about as absurd as the 60 year old Law Professor that's the head of the Judicial Oversight Committee getting arrested and taken to jail for refusing to remove an anti-war T-shirt he had just purchased in the very same mall that had him arrested.

I'll be gone for a while so I'll miss a lot of the lively discussion in this thread. Keep yourselves safe and don't be unwilling to keep an open mind. Remember what Senator Byrd said last week;

"America's true power lies not in its will to intimidate, but in its ability to inspire." http://byrd.senate.gov/byrd_speeches/byrd_speeches_2003march/byrd_speeches_2003march_list/byrd_speeches_2003march_list_4.html

Of course renaming French Fries makes much more sense.

Nice quote, and let's inspire one another.
Take care David. Get some good photos?

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. "
- Voltaire (one of those darn Frenchmen)

...did you mean 'French" or 'Freedom' men??????????

He also wrote:
"Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes."

Seems kinda fitting if one reads this whole thread!

Hey, I just learned something.
There was a documentary about arab TV stations just now.
Did you know that Al Jazira is based in Qatar and that the government of 5 arab countries called back their ambassador in Qatar to protest against Al Jazira? Also, there are a few arab countries, including Iraq and Saoudi Arabia, where satelite dishes are outlawed (and therefore chains such as Al Jazira). People have to hide them in water tanks on their roof. Al Jazira claims to try to raise polemic and raise questions, they challenge governments, increase awareness amoung arab populations.
Of course, their focus is mainly pro Arab (after all I doubt CNN will ever be anti American). But amoung the Arab world, never had they seen a television station that criticises governments, and encourage the people to seek democracy.

It was an interesting diverging point of view from what I've heard of Al Jazira.

Xerraire, how aboutthis one:
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
Voltaire

And finally, one of my pesonnal favorites:
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
Voltaire

I read of Voltaire in school. It was forced on us.

Didn't understand much of it until later on, way after high school, and something else..(can't remember now)


hey how about Fox News? I don't think anyone thinks it is anti-american


Yes Davidk, it is a strange coincidence of the relationships... I would like Iraq to control their own oil. Its funny how American and british oil companies will benifit the most from this. why not other contries too??? Hopefully, the money will come easy to most Iraqies and they can live better lives. Eventually they will have thier own goverment (I estamait 2 years) and control of thier own decisions... with help from the US... muuuhahahahahaa

ok that tears it!!! where can I get a message board spell checker??
>

[email protected]

I'd really like to make a comment but I've had my right to freedom of speech removed ....

>>Nevertheless, standerd of living places a role and while the Chinese solder might sell weapons due to loyalty, the Iraqi soldier would do it to make money. That there is a major difference. In one instance you have the leader selling arms and the other you have thousands of personal trading or selling.

I have to disagrre with that joetheblow.
1> The kind of arms you talk about that would sell in the black market are not ordinary guns/grenades: in fact they are the bombs/missiles type... So the access of such arms is available only to the higher authorities, hence would amount to 'official policy'. So it is always the leader selling the arms, overtly or covertly.
2> If you think that the proceeds of the Chinese arms mafia end up in the official coffers, you are mistaken. The laundered money lines the pockets of a few politicians and generals.


>>It should be noted that, while I am not sure if I should tollally believe the stories, that most soldiers are fighting because of hidden Saddam executioners who will kill them or thier families if they do not fight... just like the people who wanted to flee were turned around by Saddams's soldiers.

But isn't that being fed to you by the 'non-partisan' English media? Though I too believe that Saddam is a much hated figure, I think that you neglect an ordinary citizen's sense of patriotism. They may despise Saddam, but they stand behind him when their sovereignity is under threat by external forces. No human being, with a bit of pride, would accept domination of another entity, however good or profitable. And isn't this what most US citizens are doing now? They support the troops because 'US' is at war, and not because 'Dubya' is.


Yesterday, I saw the 'coalition' forces take out Iraqi TV stations? Why? Because the Iraqi are resorting to the same means as the US? The only difference is that atleast Iraqi TV and the 'non-partisan' channels with embedded reporters is that Iraqi TV spreads propoganda because it is state-controlled. The others do it out of 'free will'.

@shu: Ask yourself *when* they blew it up. Was it the first few rounds of attacks? No, it was days after... right after Saddam had broadcast an inflamatory speech. The US had destroyed much of the Iraqi military communication, and Saddam Hussein was on television directing people how to fight. On top of that Iraqi television was broadcasting the same thing their ignorant press conferences have to say, that the US is out for the wholesale genocide of the Iraqi people, yadda, yadda, yadda. Since Iraqi television is the only outlet for news most Iraqis have, it is as much a weapon as a bomb. I remember listening to him and hearing 'zionist plot' or some such about a half dozen times and thinking to myself, why are they letting this worm speak publically anyway? The bomb made sense to me.

wombat: i don't think it has anything to do with the message you are trying to get across.

My main beef with ya is that the 'in-the-know' attitude that you hate so much is the way you come off, too. A lot of us go to great extremes to look at a lot of different sources of information. I know you do have a huge grasp of the situation and military matters in general. We all resort to the "turn off CNN" slap from time to time, but you have it down to a science. Perhaps a footnote or citation every now and then would help remind us of why we *aren't* as 'in-the-know', as you. Perhaps we aren't quite often, it is just hard to swallow without some sort of reason to.

That said, i've done it often myself, so I have no right to throw stones.

I don't consider you any worse than the rest of us. I would just say what i thought and try not to call Frogboy a fascist or nazi or whatever it was, lol.

just to quote myself "this has nothing to do with oil"... so stop pretending it does... America won't control the oil... that's absurd, Iraqi oil companies will control Iraqi oil... you guys didn't buy those tin foil helmets to keep the aliens from reading your minds did you?? don't believe everything you see or hear... this war is about peace and democracy... some people need to die so that others may have a chance to live free.. it's unfortunate... but that's life, i would give my life to save another's, and so would many other americans... Americans don't give their lives for oil, that's absurd...