moshi: Hard to make the argument that we are gonna control the oil. The UN controls the oil program for Iraq until they control it for themselves. I doubt seriously that after recent events you can make the argument that we can control the UN.

Totology...

Apples are sweet.
Candies are sweet.
Thereore apples are candies.

Who? Me? I think your poking the wrong guy. Baker is over there. /me points across the Atlantic

you wanna see a paradox of eeeevil? I mean far beyond Hussein.

I am trying to decide if this is definate proof that evil exists, or if it is definate proof there is a God. I'm leaning toward evil, no doubt if I were in his shoes I would feel completely different. Look at the happy newlyweds:

http://home.introcom.net/~sidney/tyler/images/langdon/with-roy-34.jpg

*sniff* where's my black armband...

crae: only said that nobody over there want´s to think that far. too complicated.

bakerstreet: so this war is about the camels if not for oil? ah wait: weapons of mass destruction and terrorists. always good to keep the public in fear, makes controlling easier. the neo-conservative posse in power needs their terrorists desperately. i always thought Iran will be next, but it will probably be Syria, as it seems there is not enough money to start war on Iran.

backerstreet,
i didn't take your comments wrong
What i think is that we don't know what's going on in a president's mind.
For ex, was it honest from Chirac saying that the war is not needed only because the UN process didn't ended (that's what the population think) or was it only because of france's interest ? I don't know.

Same goes for the US gvt : was it honest to say that irak is an urgent threat to the usa (i don't think it was the case) or involved into the 9/11 events, or even working hand-by-hand with Al-Qaeda, or was it only because of some other US interests in irak (us companies bids/irak as a usa place in the middle-east/oil etc..). I don't know either.

I don't like simple conclusions like "if they're going to war, it's only for that reason" or "if they don't want that war, it's because of.."
Populations in those anti-war countries were behind they govt. position, not because they automatically support their govt (I don't like mine for ex), but because of their own judgement about that war.
For ex, in Britain and Spain, population was against that war but the govt supported it : it could also be considered as a special interest for GB/Spain to go to war.

You see, interpretations are easy, finding facts/proof is easy as well, but since this war happened and is not finished, we won't have the real reasons why it happened or why some govt didn't want it to happen.
Maybe we'll get the real reasons (war/not war govt. position) far later after hussein will be defeated...or worst, maybe we'll never know.

moshi: "always good to keep the public in fear"'

that is exactly what posts like yours are intended to do. If you can't make your point about oil, make some spooky comment about how the eeeeevil US government is out to get the world. No problem here, we're smart enough to handle it. You say the US is out to take over the Middle East and I laugh at you. Sadly, many people who *live* in the Middle East just see it as another excuse to martyr themselves. I don't think anyone realizes yet the power that such haphazard propaganda has to harm others. Covers your butt when you can't think of anything else to say, though, I guess.

pffft.

I'm going to bed now, finally...

Thibaud: /nod

/nod ? what's that ?

Bakersreet, I know who she is, but who's the midget?

Aside from the oil and who controls it, here is a story that gives reason to one reason we are there, besides the so called oil: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83047,00.html

Evidence has been found in the Kurdish-controlled regions of northern Iraq that the Islamic militant group Ansar al-Islam was working on three types of chlorine gas and ricin and has ties to Al Qaeda, U.S. officials told Fox News.

Officials said that between 75 and 150 Al Qaeda members have been captured or killed in northern Iraq in recent days.

U.S. sources told Fox News that documents and equipment were found in the rubble of an Ansar facility that had been built into a cliff near Sargat. The material was described as "a cookbook and kitchen" for chemical weapons.

bakerstreet,

#1315 by bakerstreet - 4/3/2003 5:12:51 AM
Crea: number 3 could also be stated as "France (and others) are protecting Saddam Hussein to protect their economic interests" Fact is, once the regime is gone, so are their agreements.

this was in response to the above.

#1316 by IPlural - 4/3/2003 7:57:55 AM
Well that won't work because they owe millions if not more to US corporations and Banks along with others from around the world. Ari balked and sputtered when asked about this same thing yesterday..

In fact he outright stated that the Iraqi people will have to pay all depts Saddam ran up. Also that they will have more than enough money from oil sales to do it.


----------------------------------------------------------


paxx that was what I was wondering also, the midget.

Fox News is the epitome oxymora.

But I have also seen similar reports on CNN, MSNBC, CBC International the BBC, AP online.

Talking about Afghanistan and Al Qaida, here are some articles that you SHOULD go through.

http://www.zmag.org/roycalam.htm

http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/9-11/warispeace.htm

"Believe nothing, trust nobody".
And how about a big 10/10 for the grunts who rescued "GI Jane"...... well planned and executed.
Coalition armoured forces are reported (NOT by Fox, CNN or similar dweebs!) to have reached the outskirts of Baghdad, notably the major airport .... stay tuned.
Oops!! Forgot that my freedom of speech is not allowed!
Now I'm in it!

Here's another one, a recent one.
www.guardian.co.uk/globalisation/story/0,7369,800017,00.html

copy paste the link in the browser.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=2919

Just to show my 'patriotism'...

I wish I was as patriotic as all the guys on this message board (and girls too.. u cannot be seen to be politically incorrect in these times)

@shu, just be you as everyone should be
your good peoples with thoughts, feelings and opinions no less valid than anyone
else no matter how hard anyone might try to make it different, you hold those
rights as all man kind being created equal.

I don't think that paper has been re-written yet, though it might on its way
to retirement, only time will tell.

the centuries old, not-to-be-overlooked Rules of Engagement for negotiations with France:

1. if it originated somewhere else, then the default initial French response is always No. ( You're supposed to understand this and not be put off!)
2. You will immerse the French in an ongoing river of symbolic acts of respect, and flattery, until you've slowly wooed them from that intial No over to a Yes. (It is absolutely essential during this critical period that you acknowledge openly that the task at hand appears so arduous as to almost be beyond contemplation without their assistance).
3. if the task at hand is not under the auspices of the UN, then the French must appear to be in charge of the action at all times.

Someone forgot to read the rules to George.

Bakerstreet, first of all I'm from Greece...read my previous posts -I think they're between p.29 and 32- , as you can see from other people's posts,I wasn't totally inaccurate about the oil thing... I'm just telling you what we hear over here...

First of all,from your posts I don't understand why OUR arguments against war have to be hypothetical -to tell you the truth
your * * and "*if* this is true..., *if* that..." got on my nerves-not to mention your language in some cases "The 'European' perspective means *dick* to me"- and YOUR arguments have to be solid facts and nothing but the truth -so help you God... - you 're just getting it from the
news just like the rest of us ...

As for the little girl I mentioned,if you read my post,you'll see that I was a bit specific about the cause of her amputated
leg...Little Fatima was -among other people-a victim of an american bombing in a central market-to make it more specific-...
lately we hear that many places that are not concidered strategic targets are being bombed...(?) And I'm just mentioning ONE of the victims we see every day in our TV screens -I don't know how much you're getting there from all of that... and don't tell me I'm overdramatizing it, because that's real life.

You say that iraqi people won't easily tolerate Brittish leadership.I agree. BUT,what makes you think that an iraqi who has
had his ______ -you can put any member of a family in the space, like mother,brother,child etc...- killed in this war will
tolerate an american leadership??? You know what they mostly say in the camera right now ???? "Curse the Americans!!!!" -oh,
excuse me that is,if the translators here are translatting it right... An old iraqi man said in the camera "at least with
Saddam we had electricity and clean water"...

And one last thing. You say that the phrase "war is not good", is not good enough for you as an argument. I bet if you were anywhere near to where the bombings are taking place right now and were a witness to war's results,you would change your
mind...

Bankokboy, I don't disagree, except the same rules can be applied to the US.
As an example, lets take movies. Most American movies are dubbed in French. But America doesn't dub a French movie, they remake it completely. The worse is that most people don't even know it was a French movie first and think it's original.

yvonne2222: and if you had witnessed the suffering of the Iraqi people for the last 30 years, I'm sure you'd understand why many are greeting us with open arms. Until the US wanted to attack them there was little interest there, I would assume. No, the European perspective doesn't really mean anything to me, because it leaves a very evil human being in power to do as he wishes. Worse, *some* European opinion wants him to win, and still others want him to win so that they can make lots of money off him.

The little girl you mention was killed most likely by Iraqi anti-aircraft missiles. They cordoned off those markets and cleaned them thoroughly of any fragments and bodies before they allowed journalists in to see the bloody spots. Even Al-Jazeera, a very anti-US news service wasn't allowed to see the 'proof' that it was an american bomb. Odd considering they haul military and human wreckage in front of every camera they can.

The US is rebuilding the water infrastructure that Saddam Hussein's people destroyed, and we didn't shut off the power to Baghdad. That was addressed in a press conference a little while ago. If we had, gee, it's war. It is obvious what you think of the US if you will believe every single scrap of anti-US propaganda. Why talk about it any more? Your mind was made up before you started, and you aren't saying anything I can't get from Al-Jazeera. Oh, wait, they've given up on Hussein's regime as well...

IPlural: No, I doubt Ari makes policy, and if he stammered he probably didn't know the answer. I've never understood why they stick that poor guy out front. Just let Rummy handle it all. Regardless, *IF* they are gonna have to repay their debts, anti-war Europe won't get the billions in future deals they have already agreed to. I don't believe for half a second they'll repay an cent of any agreement Saddam Hussein signed.

Thibaud: /nod is what you do with your head when you agree with someone. Well... in this case it is what you do when you are really tired and you want to let someone know you accept what they are saying and respect them for it without actually agreeing wholeheartedly with them.

**

I'm tired. I have made my points, oh, 50 times? Anyone that was gonna be swayed by them would have been already. From this point on if you purposely provoke me you are gonna get punished. I'm thinking of maybe resorting to what I used to do on the skinz org messageboard and write all my posts in the form of a Haiku. Perhaps, instead, a sonnet with a perfectly rhyming, Shakespearian couplet on the end. Nothing annoys like Hamlet-esque soliloquy. Consider it my own, private WMD.

****

Oh, and the guy liv tyler married is some lower echelon rock singer. I was thinking if you put a funny hat on him he would look like a garden gnome. Yet another poor lady that has forever lost the chance of becoming my wife number 2. It is a cruel world.

paxx: non, non, non. There are lots of french movies that don't get remade. A recent example is Brotherhood of the Wolf. Sure, some do, but if they don't remake ours in France it is because most of ours suck. Anyway, they owe us big for Jerry Lewis.

Actually, I saw a really good spoof article the other day where France had revoked their support for Jerry Lewis because of the war and the US government was offering Bulgaria 30 billion dollars in aid to hail him a genius.