WOM, I rest my case...

First, note that my rating grid doesn't say "Do I like colors" but "Do the colors go well together?".

Imagine a fairly conventional skin. Nothing daring but well executed. That sort of skins tend to be popular. In my tastes, it's nothing grand, and I would give it a 6 or a 7 or so. But should I give it a 10 just because I think most people like it?

And do you do the same for skins that you actually like? What I mean is what if there is a skin that you think most people would not like but you personnally like it? Do you give it a low rating then?

paxx, I rate it on it's own merrits. Who cares if you like it or not, thats for you to say and rate. I can give something a 7 or 8 because it is good and not want it myself for some reason and could give it a 9 or 10 because it is good and I would use it myself.

I believe you have the crux of it, paxx - if I understand you right - by 'nothing daring', I'm guessing that some categories carry more weight than others and you will give a higher rating for, let's say, animation vs speed... which leads me back to my first comment in this thread.

/me doesn't care at all about the ratings.

/me just wishes people would leave constructive comments.

no, mcackerson, by "nothing daring" I mean something that doesn't change much from the default Windows look. Something conservative and blah, IMO.

Anyway. I made that grid for myself. It was initially meant for people to use when they rate MY stuff. That's how I'd like people to rate my things.

If you say you like something I made but would not use it, then to me it means you don't really like it.

I disagree with your last sentence, paxx: I love your Stronghold but I don't use it, yet it's in my appearances list and I would no sooner consider deleting it than I would my other favorites. I periodically go through this list and wean out the ones I can live without, Stronghold is still there (a good skin stands the test of time...). I don't use my own Amberbug, but delete it? Don't like it? I don't think so.

mcackerson, maybe we disagree on the choice of words.
If you have it in your list, have used it in the past, even for a short while, and may maybe use it some time in the future, maybe for a short while, then, to me, you are using it.

To me, not using it means that you may not even want to download it, or download it, apply it look at and immediately removed it.

This is a difficult subject. To some ratings are important, if for no other reason that it effects what visitors see, so I try to rate the ones I download. There are some stunning skins which I wind up not using very much because they are not (for my eyes or because I find them distracting) to me for eveyday use. I wouldn't rate them less for that. Similarly there are some more subtle skins that while not flashy or intricate I really enjoy and use frequently. And appreciate more as I use them. Often they are not generally rated as highly because they are not as much of a "wow" upon first glance to look at.

Just because something is not to my every day personal taste I don't downrate it for that. For example, there is some artwork in museums or galleries I may find amazing, but even so I wouldn't hang it (or a replica) in my house.

But every once and a while the subject comes up here and a skinner may say, "how can people rate so high these skins that are tchnically bad, the graphics are put together as they should be, etc." I suppose the skinner took the other skins apart to see and came to those conclusions. I don't know if they're talking out of their hat or really do find things technically wrong with the skin. What I do know is that I am not a skinner and I don't see those things, unless it obviously effects how the skin works on my PC. If the skin works and looks good that's OK for me. But my point is, those comments make me feel as if I shouldn't rate skins at all because I am not a skinner and don't know the technical stuff. Then I think perhaps only skinners should be allowed to rate each others' work and perhaps I shouldn't rate anything at all. (Even if something has been rated low that I think should be higher.)

Some authors complain about not getting rated or not rated as high as others. Some even get into how many downloads there have been compared to others. Others ask primarily for comments to see how the skin plays, are there suggestions for improvement, etc which makes sense to me.

I do think, however, if I were a skinner and put that much effort into it I would be doing it for what I want to do and not to play to the audience for the number of downloads and/or ratings. If I were to be paid for it then that would be important. But when it's not, I wouldn't spend effort putting together something I'm not that interested in simply to post it and play a popularity game with ratings and downloads. If it's about the work, then that is the focus. If it's more about measuring oneself against others' "popularity" well that's another issue IMO.

werewolf got my vote

IPlural...that makes exactly 2 of us

To be honest, I never even noticed the rating option until I uploaded my first skin. It got a 6, obviously a lot less than I would have thought. The big problem is that I really don't know why. Is it the colors? the file size? the screenshot size? etc. I started doing these to learn photoshop more than anything else, and would like to grow and do increasingly better work, but a 6 just doesn't tell me what I need to know to better my work, niether do the comments, most of which range from "cool" to "it doesn't download right"... I guess what I would like to see is a separate rating by other skinners, as someone else brought up in this thread a few posts back, but not just a single number, rate my graphics, my use of color, the overall look and feel, the speed, and tell me why! Though I also see why wincustomize wouldn't want to do it and that's hurt feelings, Some authors take constructive criticism as a personal shot, this is a touchy subject, but I'll take the punches if it makes me stronger, that's my 2 newbe cents.

knatzz, there's a big difference between constructive criticism and "hey man, this sucks" I don't really think any author would mind real constructivism.


hmmm, is that a word?

I tell you what.....being able to see who rates what and how is illuminating...

Delicious, why do you bring this subject up every couple weeks for?

Someone that continues to knock on your door in the middle of the night will eventually get you up to answer it.

There has been very indepth/good comments made here and that proves that there is a need and desire for a change. It takes much longer to make a skin and for someone to be able to come in and "dis" it with a low rating is wrong. The rating structure should prevent that from happening and I have seen many comments that could be implimented to prevent that from happening.

Ask not what Wincustomize can do for you but what you can do for them

I agree, there is a huge difference between the two, but I have never seen "hey man this sucks" in anyones comments, not that I read through many, I am new. But I have seen a few, meaning 1 or 2 instances of "constructivism" (good word) taken as "hey man this sucks" Just what I've seen as an individual in my very limited time here. And that's the real problem I think, it's very easy to take advice the wrong way, especially when it's in print, and also hard to write good advice without worrying about it being taken as "hey man this sucks" I had an accident on my 2nd or 3rd update, the skin wouldn't even work, and was broken for the better part of the day before I checked on it. I would have thought if anyone would have gotten a "hey man this sucks" it would have been me then, I got nothing but help and encouragement though. The caliber of people in this community is so high that I don't fear anyone saying something like "hey man this sucks" but I am rather new and only speaking MHO.

Delicious, No reason why you can't bring it up again, But there have been longer and more constructive threads about the voting system than this one, and Wincustomise/Stardock have stated there will be no change, period. But no harm in trying i suppose.

Knatzz: yes, there have been "this sucks" comments and worse on some skins. Really outrageous and profane comments can be reported to the moderators and deleted and have been. It may not be that common but it does happen on occasion.

knatzz, I must say I wholeheartedly agree with you. Some people just can't take ANY criticism. As if the only reason they skinned was to get flattered. I guess some people need the boost to feel better about themselves.

But rest assured, most of us always welcome a good constructive critique. There is no better way to improve your work.

sig101, it's sad to here that it happens. NOBODY should be told that their work sucks, I know the amount of work it takes to do these first hand. The bad comments are removed per request though, and I would imagine that the "this sucks" comment reflects more negatively on the citizen who posted it then on the work or artist he/she is trying to bash. Still, I see only good things from a more in depth rating system, especially the idea of a separate, more in depth rating by other skinners, who i'm sure would choose thier words more carefully. I just want to better my own work and an idea like this one would surely help

It's interesting to hear such well thought out arguments regarding the rating sytem, from some people whom the sytem doesn't affect.

As an example only...when is the last time you received some criticism or an "unfair" rating on a skin that you made? A year or so maybe?

So maybe ratings/criticism don't seem like a big deal to you, but some people who are regular submittors fell like there's a problem and grow tired of dealing with it.

Personally, it matters much less to me than it used to. I could complain about average or substandard skins, or the same author over and over being featured here, or Brad featuring his own skins, while mine are rarely ever featured. But I don't fight it any more because it doesn't matter much, and would accomplish nothing. I could complain about unfair ratings like I used to, but I gave up on that also because ratings used to mean a lot to me because they were "peer" ratings. Now there are few of those since the ability to rate people's work became something that could be bought.

I would imagine among all the skinners here, there are many many different reasons why they do it. Some do it for recognition, some for art's sake, some for exposure leading to a possible career and maybe some out of sheer boredom. No one else's motivation is any more valid than the next to me. Regardless of their motivation they still deserve equal treatment.

Paxx, I know most welcome the criticism. When I said that I meant I have seen one or two instances, it's nit-picking, I know. I'm sure almost all of us are starved for the "constructivism" (I love that word now) It's all the more reason to do something like that though. But I have thrown down about an extra $3.50 on my original 2 cents, so i'm going to shut up now. bye all

Actually knatzz I think that's why some skinners don't regard the ratings. They're not particularly helpful. More often I see skinners look forward to people providing helpful comments saying what is that either is particularly remarkable or pleasing or if there are glitches or problems with a skin or if perhaps something might be reworked to a better effect. But that requires more effort on the poster's part. Or in my case, knowledge. If there's a glitch I can't suggest how to fix it. But I've seen some skinners being very helpful to others with their comments and that's really cool when it happens.

davad, who was that comment for? me?

What does it matter when was the last criticism I got for one of my skin? So what if it was one year ago? How would that be different than if it was just last week?
Anyway, one of the persons who I most value the comments is Craeonics. Never, ever has he given me a "good" comment. Always he told me where he thought my skins were lacking, and I've always been greatfull that he took the time to tell me. I'm not talking about the "This suck" comment which have the same value to me as a "This rocks". Both are pointless and offer nothing. Tell me what you like about it, tell me what you don't like about it. That's the kind of things I want to hear.

Or were you talking about how I like my skins to be rated? Excuse me to differ, but to me, if a skin is unusable, it's not a good skin. Period. Using a skin, to me, is the very elementary necessity for a good skin. Say I see a tie-die shirt, the kind of shirts that the hippies used to wear. They had some pretty fancy ones that had 4 or 5 colours. Now that's a lot of work to get those things right. Some people still love those shirts. Personnaly, I can see the amount of work in them, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing one. If I were to rate such a shirt, should I rate it high cause other people like it and it took a long time to make? Heck no. I would not wear it, never, so I would give it maybe a 7 for the art put in it, but it certainly would not deserve a 10 from me if I would be too embarrassed to wear the thing.

I still have a tie-dyed Tee-shirt....got it in '72...