Nup....posted some comments then deleted 'em.
I decided it's not worth it.

I'm off to Philip Island to see Agostini and deal with a bunch of vintage bikes trying to hurt each other.

Leather, tyre smoke and alcohol....and a dose of sunburn....

See y'all in a few days...

Try not to break too much while I'm gone...

Ciao, Jafo.... have fun, brother!

War is and has been a given from the first time Iraq was placed in the so called Axis of Evil.

oh well

Frogboy-
you make some ridiculously sweeping generalisations about those involved in the anti-war movement.
You want more than "one-line quips"? You want to read the truths that the American Government don't really want you to know? then try this http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

People as equals but not necessarily nation states. I don't hold that the USA or Australia are equal to say Nigeria or North Korea.

Um, Tinkergaloot, WhatReallyHappened.com is one of the most infamous anti-sematic sites on the Internet. It's one of those places that tried to claim that "jews" were told to stay at home on 9/11.

Frankly, I find it rather spooky that you actually believe what's on that site.

Typical head-in-the-sand Republican response. What is spooky is that you, like millions of other Americans, actually believe the BS that your Government shoves down your throats via the US media.
And in whose opinion, other than yours,is whatreallyhappened.com anti-semitic?
If you are implying that I'm anti-semitic, then be very careful...

I have no idea whether you're anti-semitic or not. But I do know that site is.

You are mistaken if you believe I get my info exclusively from the US Media. There are lots of sources for data.

But yea, I am willing to say that a site that thinks "World Jewry" are the ones behind a vast "zionist" conspiracy and are secretly manipulating the world. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Claims that the Iraqi's can jame JDAMs are pretty ridiculous as I suspect we'll discover shortly.

For every person who buys into the crap of a "whatereallyhappened.com" there's some guy who thinks UN black helicopters are after them. Perhaps you believe in that too. Perhaps "the jews" are in those UN black helicopters? Do you believe that?

You're ready to dismiss CNN (or the BBC no doubt) but perfectly okay to believe that the "jewish lobby" is secretly in control of the US congress and that they were the ones behind the 9/11 attacks. Sheesh.

No DOUBT!

Frogboy, just so you know, I did post that link back a way because of only one reason, there was some funny stuff on it.
There is just as many about Clinton which are just as funny.
I am not right nor left but independant and feel both sides have just as many positive points as negative points about them. One of the most damning for all concerned in DC is they are all Politicians who want to stay working politicians and in order to do so they freely say what people want to hear and do exactly what they ( the politico's ) want to do anyways.

But I am not THAT far gone

What I believe is that the reasons for a US-led attack on Iraq are three-fold:
Control of Iraqi oil, protection of the Israeli state, and destabilising of the Arab community through political and military involvement in the region.
I have many friends in Israel, all of whom are anti-war, and anti-Sharon. They also visit whatreallyhappened on a regular basis. Does this make them anti-semitic?
No less an eminent and respected person than Nelson Mandela also described Sharon as one of the two main threats to world peace (George Dubya being the other.) Does his criticism of Sharon make him anti-semitic as well?
I base my beliefs on facts, not innuendo, hyperbole and lies. What do you base your beliefs on?

I do think that the lobby does hold a lot of pull in our government, and I am not speaking of anyone specific lobby either. ALl of them hold to much influence and should be removed from the process across the board.

I hope at some point in time party lines are a thing of the past and a president and administration are put into office because of merit and not because they happen to have the most money, or make the better eventual broken promises.

Accountability is a serious issue for this nation on almost all levels of government, or lack there of.

tinker....I may not entirely agree with Frogboy's stance or point of view but being a democratic type, entirely endorse his right to that view.
Legitimate opinion cannot be ignored, irrespective of its origin or perceived bias.
I don't poo-poo it as blind propaganda.
Most, if not all 'movements' have hidden agendas, including the 'anti war' one.

Just remember to believe nothing of what you read, and only half of what you see.

I am pro-US.....I am anti 'pre-emptive strike'.
If and when the US gets all 'pre-emptive', I'll have to start rooting for the underdog, that is all....

See you in 4 days....I have some bikes to keep 'upright'...

.. sums it up for me

Jafo-
I don't deny that Frogboy is entirely within his rights to have an opinion, and to express it freely.
Debate is healthy, and the expression of differing opinions is a manifestation of what hundreds of thousands of our forebears have fought and died for.
Unfortunately, I don't see a pre-emptive strike on Iraq as being based upon the same foundation of defending our freedom and way of life...
Enjoy Phillip Island, say hi to the penguins.
I'm off now to watch Australia destroy England (again) in the cricket...a for more sensible form of "combat".

, Rugby is good too, don't forget Rugby !!

Unfortunately, England seem to have our measure in Rugby at the moment, but I'm expecting that to change when the World Cup commences here later this year.
The problem is going to be how is anyone going to beat the All Blacks?

oh by the way, speaking of poll numbers



" NBC-WSJ Poll: Bush support drops:

President’s ratings slip on economy, foreign policy, handling of war on terrorism.

72 PERCENT FAVOR EVIDENCE

Seventy-two percent believe Bush should show evidence of Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction, compared with 22 percent who say he should not.

And by a margin of 48 percent to 24 percent, the poll indicates that Americans believe the al-Qaida terrorist network, responsible for Sept. 11 attacks, is more a threat to the country than Iraq.

On Wednesday, a senior administration official who has long insisted the White House doesn’t pay attention to polls took the unusual step of acknowledging the numbers are slipping, blaming a period of slow economic growth, NBC’s Campbell Brown reported. "

http://www.msnbc.com/news/862957.asp?0cv=CA00

But then again it is a poll and nothing but numbers which are always questionable to say the least. But on the other hand, the President-select and his people have made many statements that they do not depend on polls, and yet always seem to throw numbers out when they reflect a positive light, as do almost everyone else.

it is not the nation as a whole I guess is what the point is.
This pratice of saying something over and over again in public until the point that people forget or refuse to question and just accept it as truth is a bit old. Nothing new either, it has been SOP for years now...

"I base my beliefs on facts, not innuendo, hyperbole and lies. What do you base your beliefs on?" (Tinkergaloot). We all base our opinions on facts in the frame of our own perspective ( we tend to see what we're expecting or wanting to see, and not notice the rest). An impartial arbiter from Jupiter would conclude that some of your "facts" are no more factual than mine, due to the inherent and pervasive biases ( nondeliberate selective blindness) built into all of us, and our finite observation methods and abilities.

Most of us, when cornered, will admit that we probably know less than 1% of everything that can be known. But with that tiny fraction of a percent database, we're all always ready to make sweeping judgments about the whole - and there arise our beloved, "factual" opinions. G'day and best wishes to us all.