It is not so, Frogboy. I admire the people of US who defend the right of all Americans, they are really a concerned lot. They do really care about other people, but their concern stops at Americans only. You talk about the UN food program, but doesn't that include all other nations such as France, Russia, Japan, etc. Even a country like India, where there is an immense divide between the haves and the have-nots, did its bit.
That is exactly what I am talking about, UNILATERALISM. The UN has sent its weapons inspectors and the decision of action against Iraq should be based on the UNSC decision. The US invokes UN charters as and when it likes, while blatantly ignoring its directives in many others.
And I was taking of all the wars after the 1940's. I apologise for not being specific, but hasn't the US, overtly or covertly, been a part of all of them? (And where the US has missed out, GB has stepped in to fill its shoes).
Don't you think that France, Russia have as many enemies?

My last message on this topic here:

No, you simply have no idea what you are talking about. You are not just slightly off on many of your facts and histories but utterly wrong with regards to the facts and histories in questions.

It is like debating with someone who is convinced that the moon landings never took place.

We landed on the moon?....

It's logic versus religion, freedom versus indoctrination. This thread is a classic example of why "Never the 'twain shall meet"
I hate to see these political disussions on a skin site.

What you don't want to accept is the fact that if US-bashing or US-baiting exists, US itself is responsible for it to a great extent. If I am someone who is convinced that the moon-landings did not take place, then so be it. Atleast I question all that is being done in my name, I am concerned how other people percieve me. And I am someone who doesn't think that the a tournament made up of participating teams from two (or is it just one) nation(s) constitutes a 'World Series'.

Boxxi, I see what you are getting at.
I am not what you think I am, I do not belong to either side. Everything is not black and white. If u'd known me, u'd have seen me hating 'them' more than you do. But, I have been taught to think for myself, beyond the written word.
I was aggrieved by 911, I had an acquaintance in the Second Tower, but my heart bleeds equally for the innocent victims of the US war on Afghanistan. And I shudder to think what will happen if this is repeated in Iraq. Let them clean up their own mess, or let UNSC authorise action. Do not let the blood of innocent Iraqis on your hand for a few oil wells.

@shu I grew up with an idealized vision of the USA...I never knew much about other cultures/countries until I was older and took the liberties of self-education in my own hands…

One of my most intense studies was of the holocaust…

War, death, destruction…it’s always going to be ugly, horrible and terrifying…but out of many wars there have been borne many freedoms and liberties to many people…

There are still primitive tribes in Africa and other continents where life and death are a constant tribal war and a struggle just to exist…

Are we better than those primitives? In many ways yes…because we communicate, we try to delineate peaceful talks between leaders and we try to establish fairness with peace talks etc. and even with our “BIG GUNS” we sure as heck don’t EVER want to “HAVE” to use them “EVER” because we KNOW BETTER. But give a 3rd world country a nuke…or a country/providence run by a dictator who can access one and you better duck and cover!

The USA is made up of 99.9% innocent citizens whom try to vote the best they can… Our leaders represent us but the difference between “US” and “THEM” is as a US citizen we DO have a choice… WE the PEOPLE speak with our vote… Some other less fortunate countries have no such rights… (Unless you call it a right to vote against your dictator if you don’t mind your head being lopped off for it).

Is the USA evil for being powerful and wealthy and strong? NO… If a country such as Iraq etc. had the same power the USA now…do you think they’d have diplomatic talks with the higher ups? Do you think they’d not force their ‘religion’ on people all over and not use their nukes as threats?

WHY is the USA so successful? Because we have FREEDOM…

I’ll probably get flamed for this but I don’t frickin’ care.

I’m sick of being called an “ugly American” just because we have does not mean we don’t care about the ‘have nots’ and doesn’t mean we want to fire off our weaponry at every given chance. Heck no! Nobody in their right mind wants to send their son/daughter off to fight a war if they can help it…except for the psycho wackos who want to sacrifice their children for some whacked out religious fairytale that was brainwashed into them since DAY ONE. What kind of choice is that?

/me won't even go into how WOMEN and CHILDREN are treated in many of those countries! Talk about backasswards! >

Dear Shmoopy, I belong to one of 'those' countries. We do not have deaths by gunfire every two minutes is it? We do not have as many rapes, with a population much, much higher than yours. Education situation is bad, but steadily improving (before the colonising of our nation, we even had priestesses, never heard of that in many of the enlightened nations). The economy was destroyed by constant invasion from the West and we are now a 'third world country'.
Sexual freedom in our country was supressed by 'Medieval Western Morality'. We have had the nuclear option for 20+ years, but we have declared a no first-use policy. We share our foodstocks with countries that are poorer than us, break bread with our enemies.
We did make some mistakes by meddling in Sri Lanka's affairs in the early eighties but after burning our fingers once, never repeated it.
I do not use much gas, oil, CFC's as much as countries with tenth our population, but have to suffer the brunt of the climatic changes due to pollution.
And we respond to our leaders' decisions in the most blatant way possible, voting them in or out of power. We question them and analyse each and everyone of their decisions.
We have around 20 religions in our countries, 32 languages and over a 150 dialects.
There are occassional hiccups but we carry on, thank you.

What you should understand that with power comes the burden of duties and decisions. I am not saying that nations is not allowed make mistakes. But they should have the maturity to learn from their mistakes. And excercise caution while using the powers at their disposal.

@shu, peace should ALWAYS be the first option...

ALWAYS...

I wish it were the ONLY option...

Anyhoo...I dunno how much political impact any 'political' arguments have on a "Skinning/art" forum accept that I wish those kind of 'hot topics' were kept at a 'political' forum rather than here.

If one wants peace...then why not be upstanding enough to try and keep it rather than stir the pot? You've only proven one thing to me...I am right in what I know...people like you almost NEVER waver from their own staid beliefs.

Peace to you nonetheless...

FB: It is like debating with someone who is convinced that the moon landings never took place

Some people here have their heads up there

/me agrees with Fuzzy Wuzzy...

Sad, sad, sad...

...'BUTT' () true

Dunno what's wrong, but no matter how many times I vote, my vote won't "stick", as in I keep being able to vote or maybe it's only the "Unfortunately it needs to be done" option that works.....

But as long as nothings found (weapons, rockets etc etc) I cannot see a single reason to start any kinda military actions.

I'll keep it at that, won't stir up more shit

oh, btw just as a sidenote, I don't believe that Iraq should be left alone either. Someone gotta keep the sucker down!

That's for the people of Iraq themselves to decide. They say that people get the government they deserve. Maybe Iraq does deserve a tyrant like Saddam at its helm, but even if it does not, it shouldn't be external forces that that bring about change. It would be like replacing one inposed government by another...

It is a nice idea to hold a poll Jafo, but what would perhaps been even better would have been the following options:
"
1. I am an American (or British) citizen, the war is justified.
2. I am not an American (or British) citizen, the war is justified.
3. I am an American (or British) citizen, the war is not justified.
4. I am not an American (or British) citizen, the war is not justified.
"

Then we would have really come to know about the opinion divide amongst the Americans and the rest of the world.

I think there is a lot of misconception on both parts: most US citizens believe that their country is perfect and seems to believe everything their governement tells them, and on the other hand some people in other countries tend to go totally in the other direction: USA is evil. Neither is true.

But the saddest part of all, @shu, is that US domination is there, and its not military. In this day and age, Imperialism isn't military nor political. It's economical. The whole world now serves as a big "Monopoly" game board for the US companies to play on. The US will never invade any other country in this day and age. Why bother with all the trouble and expanses that brings? The US already owns most countries in the world anyway, economically.

Oh, and The Rated PG: I've lived in West Africa for about 4 months. I was 18 then. You cannot imagine how many marriage proposition I received from mothers for daughters that were sometimes 5, 6 ot 7 years old. Or sometimes, mothers would just want to GIVE me their child. "Take him and bring him in Canada with you where he will get a better life."
I think, The Rated PG, that kind of things you saw and heard, you'd hear just about anywhere in Third World countries.

I am sure that what you say is true paxx. The US owns most countries economically. And the ones it doesn't or can't for whatever reason, it tries to dominate militarily.
But aren't we losing a bit of focus here? The question was whether you think that the imminent invasion of Iraq by the US and GB is justified or not and why?
We have slipped into a discussion whether the US is evil or not...

/me right hand smacks left for starting to type on this subject.
Left hand wishes right had not been holding mouse at the time.

Ouch!!!

Well, I think I'll just add my opinion in this wild Thread.

Bush should of ended it years ago then we wouldn't be worrying about it now.

The Joke - United States is probably paying Iraq to do this. Because War creates money. I'm not sure how, but it does. Think about it.

The problem is that by attacking Iraq without the UN's consent, the US and its allies would go againt international treaties at the United Nations.
At least, that's what a lot of people are saying here in Canada when our governement suggested that it might maybe consider going in Iraq with the US.
I don't think it will happen, for Canada I mean.

reading these responses shows just how intellectually bankrupt the left has become. no wonder the 'peace' movement has no influence anymore.

Where exactly does an 'intellectually bankrupt left' fit into this?
Unless you regard Tony Blair as 'left'!
I'm amazed he can actually speak, considering where his tongue is!
@Shu, your own country and its neighbor (P......n) are high on the list of probable Nuclear aggressors and are certainly regarded as a 'problem zone' by our security service, more so than Indonesia or the Philippines.
Problem #1 in the Middle East, sadly, Israel, the only thing they lack now are the black uniforms and the armbands .... they have become their own enemy.