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Is innovation on the rise in skinning?

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Is innovation on the rise in skinning?

from WinCustomize Forums
https://www.wincustomize.com/index.asp?Cmd=full&NewsID=1124

In the news item, we were discussing whether we're in a new golden age. Craeonics, who is someone whose opinions I respect, disagrees. He wrote:

"If this were a golden age, I would see more and more new ideas. I don't see any new ideas, so therefore this is not a golden age. Quantity != quality, you know."

To which I replied:
I think you have a case of nostalgia there. The quality of the skins of 1999-2000 can't remotely compare to the quality of today.

If you don't see the innovation and new things going on, then my answer to that is that you're probably not trying out new software very much.

Let me just give you a handful of NEW things in August 2002 just from us:

1) WindowFX 2 beta is nearly here with skinnable shadows.

2) Said beta has a fully scriptable way of handling state transitions. That is, when I minimize/max a window, I can have any type of animation I want to creat emade.

3) ObjectBar 1.3 allows users to have hot keys for any bar or item. So if I want to have Ctrl-Alt-K bring up my MP3 player and Ctrl-Alt-V bring up Visual Studio and Ctrl-Alt-N bring up display properties I can do that.

4) ObjectBar 1.3 now lets you put in ActiveX controls right into bars! So I could embed a spreadsheet object or a media player movie window or whatever right into my bar.

5) The WinCustomize skin browser will be out shortly (v1.0) allowing people to apply skins and themes and icons and etc. right from the database directly. No having to download the thing and figure out how to install the skin and then go to th eprogrma and apply it.

6) WindowFX 2 beta now allows you to put LIGHT SOURCES of ANY COLOR anywhere on your screen and it will change the color of the border of your window based on the position and distance of that window to the light source.

These are just a few things off the top of my head since I worked with them this afternoon.

Plus there are other things in development such as the MCP which will provide an open standard for skin software developers to use it rather than create system hooks so that instead of your half dozen customizeable apps using their own system hooks (which can slow down the system to a degree) only one is used.

We're also working on a way to allow developers to access Direct3D APIS right from the 2D desktop so that all sorts of different effects can be used.

I am not at liberty to mention all the cool things going into WindowBlinds 4.0 for next year except to say that it's going to be incredibly cool.

WB 3.4 came out at the tail end of last month so you can see what was new there at: http://www.windowblinds.net/wb3/wb34.html

So these are just some things that have occurred in just the past month that are off the top of my head. If I did some digging I could make a much bigger list.

So if there was time past golden age that you feel compares, feel free to bring it up and provide a comparison. I see lots of new ideas and more than just new ideas, the realistic execution of them.

But what do you think? Those of you who have been around "since the beginning" have seen what I've seen and what Craeonics has seen. What do you think?

I would assert that Craeonics or a user who holds a similar opinion probably has a subset of customization software that he uses and has not seen updates to those. Kenray (Teknidermy) has vocally supported the various freeware programs available out there which these days don't seem to be moving forward as quickly as they once did. But he may not be watching what's been going on with Object Desktop or Hoverdesk or other types of customization software.

It is my belief that today, August 2002 that the software and the skins are experiencing an unprecedented level of quality and innovation when compared to previous times.

What is your view?

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9,423 views 38 replies
Reply #26 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Frogboy - If you don't see the innovation and new things going on, then my answer to that is that you're probably not trying out new software very much.

*engage pet rant mode*
one case of a new innovation in skinning was / is the smartbuttons that WB3.x introduced.

on paper the idea was, and is, very interesting.
so you can present this as a step forward for the skinning programs.
but i could count the number of released skins using smartbuttons on the claws of one paw. this "innovation" hasnt been picked up by the skin creators. when the first smartbutton enabled versions of WB were shipped, there were no sample skins showing how to do this that could be reverse engeneared.

at the time starone and i spent many hours producing a rather large thread here trying to work out smart buttons, and to get them to work without crashing WB and notepad. nothing wrong with working it our ourselves, but doing it with nothing to reverse engeneer is a different matter.

in fact i am under the impression WB still doesnt ship with any examples of how to use smartbuttons. not exactly encouraging people to use the new and innovative features of the programs.
*end pet rant mode*

Frogboy - 3) ObjectBar 1.3 allows users to have hot keys for any bar or item.

to my way of thinking, something that fiddlers will love and adore (well, *i* do), but since these are likely to be user specific, not something that is going to spread. also, setting them up is likely to stump total beginners.

i have been using OB since ver 0.4, and when i first got OB 1.3 installed i couldnt work out how to set up hotkeys to launch an application, and concluded that it wasnt possible.

i only worked it out after re-visiting the issue.

Frogboy - 4) ObjectBar 1.3 now lets you put in ActiveX controls right into bars!

at the risk of being harsh, how much use is this to the average user of skinnable programs?
for power users setting up custom environments this sort of this is ideal, but one persons custom setup probably isnt going to work well for other users. this power in DX doesnt seem to be used in most theme uploads, so is probably going totaly untapped by most users.

i agree that the more powerful a program is, the more complex it becomes to use that power. this is why a set of interesting examples that the user can download and play with are so useful. after all a picture is worth a thousand words, and they go a fair way towards providing useful documentation since skinners can pick them appart to see how to use these features themselves.


changing tack slightly:
in the time i have been using WB, i can see why people would say that the "golden age" has ended.
so many of the new skins that appear have a "it all looks the same" feel about them.

i am not sure that this is fair, since the number of new and seriously different skins has always seemed low. remember the time when we couldnt move for aqua skins?
but with the increasing upload rate, it just seems more obvious.

if you assume the same number of really different looking skins appearing, then they are becoming an ever smaller proportion of the total set of new skins.

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Reply #27 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The merit of various features or their implementation is a totally different debate.

My assertion is that innovation at present is at a high level which I tihnk my points demonstrate.

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Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #28 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Brad, your point indeed shows that the tools are in place and waiting for originality and innovation to come...

I don't know what skins you guys look at, but although today's skins are very nice, they really all look the same, with a very few exceptions. Aleksyandr for example. I used to download a new skin at least ever 2nd or 3rd day. Now, I change my skin maybe once every 2nd or 3rd month. Sometimes even 6 months.
I have nothing against simple, plain, usable skins. Adni's sortof skins. I love them. But when that's all that's being delivered, I can't say that anybody is showing much creativity anymore, compared to the tons there was back just one year ago. Actually, the decline occured with Windows XP. Most skins now have that "XP" look. With a few exceptions.

I never was much a creative guy anyway. Wasn't before, still am not. But there were plenty back then. And yes, as Doomgaze said, they were experimenting. That's what creation is about. Doing the same routine you've learned over and over is not what it's about. Come on people, think different. There always are new ideas. It's not true that everything has been done. People have been writting song for milleniums and there still are some quite amazing things coming out.

But I agree, that the main problem is that "popularity" goes with the plain skins, the conservative ones. The ones that look the most like Luna while being different. Well, if skinners only care about downloads anymore, then we trule are NOT in any golden age whatsoever, we'd actually even be in the dark ages...
And I also agree with the fact that Windowblinds skins are so complex today that it takes forever to make a skin. I know myself that everytime I get the idea to make one, I change my mind in front of the time I'll have to spend on it... That sure doesn't help creativity.
Reply #29 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Can someone tell me what the difference is between (logon) TheBlueGiant and An Insomniac"s Dream is other than a couple of megs. I know my eyes are bad but I do not see a difference.

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Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I've got a lot of opinions on this, but many have been touched on by others in this thread. It's worth agreeing with Treetog though about how it's more difficult to come up with something that's original. Mostly because orginal means that it's not been done before, or at least is very different from other remotely similar things. That's probably because we have thousands of skins nowadays - it's harder to stand out in the crowd now. Most of us are small fish in a big pond!

Personally, I like to look for subtle things now a days. IOW, instead of being blown away by something earth-shattering now I find myself saying things like "check out how that bevel is done - must have been done by hand since a photoshop filter won't give you that level of control".

Also, a lot of us are probably a bit jaded by now. We've been around the skinning block and seen so many fantastic graphical wonders that it takes more and more to get us to feel that way again.
Reply #31 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh yeah - have to agree with Paxx about the complexity part. Skinning should be fun, first and foremost. Working on one skin for one app for two weeks gives you a great sense of accomplishment but it's not something that can be done often.
Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Two LiteSTEP themes in particular, that oozed 'wow-facter' were 'Thug Life' by Praxxis, and 'Turtle Soup 11' by Doodle.....Who remembers _Shoggot_'s 'Scathe' series of skins?
That stuff was not just 'new'....it was 'new and exciting'.

Now, we get reputable quality...[guaranteed quality] from the likes of Phar0e [LiteSTEP] and treetog [just about anything]...[like treetog, I could name many more]...their work is unquestionably good...but it's now essentially 'recognizable'....which implies that it's not divergently innovative.

What's needed from time to time is a shake-up, a total rethink of skinning/style direction...[we get that every time a new OS is released...'it's Porty time' [pun]]....

I remember pairing up with a fellow Architect, and, while half drunk one night suggesting we take up smoking dope and calling ourselves 'Spaced out Homes'....[we just had another drink instead]...

What's that saying?....

Think outside the square...
Reply #33 from WinCustomize Forums Top
hmmmmmm.... I actually read this whole thread...

I do understand where most people are coming from and are saying about what it looks like or maybe what it seems like as far as WB skins being different. My background is architecture and I know about boxes and rectangles. The fight between form and function never ends.

My take is that design goes through cycles. At this moment in time there are not as many "different" skins. There are also not as many new skinners either. Maybe once they figure out what is what, they will post thier designs too and they wil come from a different perspective.


Me for one have always loved curvey shapes. I am a absolute fan of Antonio Guadi (Spain), Caltrava, and others. I am also a humanist when it comes to Architecture design (as in let the material be to scale with the human being). I also like this idea of not "busying up" a design. Like the user make changes to it and come up with a way to use your design.


It is a hard balance. I am still learning how to use SkinStudio and do not think I will be coming out with anything soon (say next year November!!!) but I have lots of ideas and some of them will be flexable and others will be not be. I plan to use those smart buttons ( like in the SETI WB ) and use them often when I know I will be working hard for days straight.

Right now I am trying to make this triangle WindowBlinds to work. I'm trying to make the areas that will show the desktop (when the window is maximized) and allow me to click on buttons that I would not have been able to see if it were a square window.

No it will not get allot of download, who want a trianglur windowblind? But it will be new and different.

I'm plnning to put some of my ideas in the graphic section so you guys can have a look. And if you like something just steel it... I mean borrow the idea and make it your own. Like Jasper Johns!!
Reply #34 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Originality is important to me, and keeping up with new developments in skinning software is important to me, but innovation in the sense of making a skin that is totally different is not necessarily worth while. My ultimate goal is to make my computer look better while remaining usable.

I could make some crazy window frame with all kinds of angles and transparency for example, but if the titlebar is wider than the window frame, I can't grab the frame edge to resize the window. So, in situations like that, I abandon the crazy frame for something a little more conservative that actually works.

Or, I could make some obscured titlebar buttons and scatter them all over the window frame, but I don't want to have to read a freakin' map to maximize a window.

In a nutshell, I don't want to spend 2 weeks making a skin that I'll only use for 2 hours. As long a people are making skins that they want to use, and sharing them with everyone else, you will get what skinner's tastes dictate.

To anyone who is not seeing enough of the kind of skin they want to use, I say this, "Open up your graphihcs editor, download SkinStudio, and get cracking." That's why I started.

Afterall, neccessity is the mother of invention, my friends.
Reply #35 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh, and action speaks louder than words.

/me is on a cliche kick this morning

Please don't get me wrong. I have no animosity toward anyone. I'm just saying that I started making WB skins because I didn't see enough of what I was looking for. If others did the same (and they will), there would be more innovation.
Reply #36 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hey, I understand what you mean MikeB314!! That's why I'm trying to understand SkinStudio. I want to make stuff like andi18.... and also make stuff like triangles.

I have learned my lesson when it came tp some of my designs when I was in architecture school, crazy designs only work when they are designed very well. And even then they tend to be liked by a few becuase it is hard to use and maintain.

I can't wait to start uploading Windowblinds skins.... I want to be the next andi18 or treetog or Mike.... with a touch of joetheblow!!
Reply #37 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I had a touch of joetheblow once, a little anitbiotics cleared it right up cleared it right up...

I disagree with all the complexity complaints. Some apps are gonna be easy to do, others aren't. I think that an app as all-encompassing as windowblinds would have to have to be complex. I mean, you are skinning everything you see, for the most part, so it is practically on the shell-level of usefullness and visibility. The same complaints are being made about winamp 3. I think it will create a higher level of quality simply because you have to *want* to make the skin you are making. The 'two-skins-in-an-afternoon' thing is great if you are building on a lot of planning and design, but many people actually cranked them out at that rate from scratch. No harm in making them work a bit more.
Reply #38 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm two days at beach, and you begin to speak about interesting themes! >
I think that a skinner must be creative. There's a lot of skins that are using the same theme. There's a lot of great WindowBlinds authors but not a lot of innovative styles. One example: the Master Essorant have not lots of downloads, he have not lots of skins at Wincustomize, but he have one of most diverse skins collection. Trretog is also other Master making new variations, Dangeruss is part of skinning history, The Skins Factory is a real skins factory, Mormegil has created the zoomers style!
And the programs...... ahhhhh Verona Desktop Enhancement (e piu bello il programa che non la città) DesktopX; if WindowFX solve some some bugs, it will be one of best desktop enhancements; the alphachannels and scripting on Winamp3 and Sonique2; the 'Direct3D APIS right from the 2D desktop'... really this? Please, don't give me a candy like this!!!